Reactive dog or simply BC

[Flamincomet]

I would be interested to know what label those who don't believe in reactive dogs would give to Spirit. We are going to label them in one way or another, to not do so would be ignorant, and IMO, impede progress. If you can't label a dog's issue as aggressive or submissive (for example), how are you going to know which training techniques to use?

 

Spirit is an extremely calm, laid back dog at home, she sleeps all day in crate (with the door open), and if I try to take her on a walk, bike or do obedience work with her, she lags the entire time and is really hard to get "up." However, at agility she is a COMPLETELY different dog. She literally can't contain herself, goes completely over threshold, and will bark, scream, whine, and lunge while other dogs are running agility. When it's our turn, she completely shuts off and has no focus, she doesn't really care about doing the obstacles, except her favorites (A-frame in particular). The only way I can slightly control her, is to lay her on her side, and massage her when the other dog are running, and she will still be reacting the entire time. It's painfully obvious she is stressed the entire time (I pulled her from agility recently after it was clear she wasn't making progress), and literally out of her mind when other dogs are running. When the dogs aren't running she gets a long with them fine, she can be a bit snarky to pushy dogs, but isn't aggressive in any way. At home she is calm, at agility class she is reactive, dogs have different behaviors for different situations. I don't call her my "reactive" dog, she is my dog, who is reactive in some situations.

 

On the other hand, at obedience classes, my biggest problem is her submissive peeing, which is definitely not reactivity, but submissive/excitable behavior. I use different training techniques for these issues. I'm sure some trainers would label Spirit as aggressive at agility class, based on her displays, and if I listened to them, I would be going in completely the wrong direction with her training (which actually happened with a previous dog, and did not end well at all). Other people might say she's "just a border collie" in which case I might have accepted her behavior, and she would continuously be in a state of extremely high levels of stress. And of course other people would label her as "just excitable." Believe me, there is a big difference. Link, my puppy, is excitable at agility class, he wines sometimes and will stare at the other dogs and will run towards them if they come near him while doing an obstacle. He is still under threshold and manageable, and he should get better with age and more exposure. When other dogs aren't running, I am able to work with him on sit-stays before jumps. His focus is almost always there (he is a puppy), and there are very few stress signals, if any. Spirit is clearly in distress in the same situation.

 

To the OP, it's hard to say without actually seeing the dog, behavior and context, but there are clear differences between reactive and aggressive behavior, which is the most common mix up. In general, reactive behavior is usually just that, over the top reactions to situations that should not provoke that kind of response, like Spirit at agility class. My previous BC was reactive towards other dogs, which is much harder to discern between aggression. *Usually* with reactive behavior, the dog is more "up," whereas with fear aggressive dogs, there are more avoidance cues, the ears and tail are usually down and tucked, and the dog moves more slowly and more stiff. They will both throw stress signals, because they are both stressed, just for different reasons. As for mix ups between dominant aggressive and reactive behavior.... I will always err on the side of caution and would rather label a dog reactive and work with them that way, than dominant aggressive. Reactivity is far more common, at least in this breed.

 

Autumn

[Blackdawgs]

RB, could you elaborate on the distinction you mention here? I was thinking that reactivity is an emotional state not a physical response.

 

 

Emotions are driven by neurochemistry. Reactivity is a physiologic response to biochemicals, which is why the initial treatment is eliminating the triggers from the dog's (persons) environment to to the extent that it is possible. This allows the biochemical levels to return to normal levels. Then the triggers are slowly re-introduced. This is the "action" part that I spoke of earlier.

 

The "introspection" part is the realisation that some dogs may not be suited for some environments (eg, the sportsworld)

[flyer]

I would agree that it is an emotional state. But how do we (the humans) know about it? By the physical response that the dog has in response to the emotional state.

 

Do you mind if I use my own dog as an example? It's just easiest.

 

Back when Speedy was at the worst point of his reactivity, what I saw were "bugged out" eyes, the tension in his body, the barking, the lunging, the panting, etc. That was the external reaction that he had as a result of his internal emotional reaction. Say, to a dog looking at him.

 

This sets up an example to make the distinction. In that case, the external reaction was a result of his internal emotional reaction, which was extreme fear when another dog made eye contact with him.

 

But he had a similar reaction when he saw dogs running Agility. In that case, the external reaction was a result of the stimulation that he experienced when he saw that. There was no fear in the picture. Those dogs weren't paying any attention to him and he knew it.

 

In both cases, though, he was reacting to something that made his brain, in plain talk, go haywire. But in one case, fear was in play. In the other it was pure stimulation from the motion. What it looked like on the outside, though, was very similar.

 

Does that make sense?

 

How do you know that one was fear based and one was over stimulation? What about the dog said that? And wouldn't the root of each of those still be the same inside the dog? I'm thinking about Geonni's excerpt about anxiety and how it builds to a chronic stage. The post in the stress thread I started.

[flyer]

Emotions are driven by neurochemistry. Reactivity is a physiologic response to biochemicals, which is why the initial treatment is eliminating the triggers from the dog's (persons) environment to to the extent that it is possible. This allows the biochemical levels to return to normal levels. Then the triggers are slowly re-introduced. This is the "action" part that I spoke of earlier.

 

The "introspection" part is the realisation that some dogs may not be suited for some environments (eg, the sportsworld)

 

 

This makes sense to me. Given your last statement re: introspection, how much do you believe these physiologic responses can be reversed through counter-conditioning while under threshold? I know the answer largely depends on the various aspects of dog and handler. I am just wondering if you think it can actually be changed inside or will one always have to manage?

[flyer]

I would be interested to know what label those who don't believe in reactive dogs would give to Spirit. We are going to label them in one way or another, to not do so would be ignorant, and IMO, impede progress. If you can't label a dog's issue as aggressive or submissive (for example), how are you going to know which training techniques to use?

 

I don't think anyone was saying one couldn't use labels. I was simply questioning where along the continuum a dog crosses over from very sensitive and intensely energetic to "reactive" with all of the connotations this term has today in the world of dogs. I did agree with DM that the term is somewhat vague. Though as the discussion continues I am seeing that "reactive" seems to be another way of saying acutely anxious expressing itself in a myriad of behaviors, mostly negative. I believe that is what you are saying in your last paragraph?

 

<SNIP>

 

To the OP, it's hard to say without actually seeing the dog, behavior and context, but there are clear differences between reactive and aggressive behavior, which is the most common mix up. In general, reactive behavior is usually just that, over the top reactions to situations that should not provoke that kind of response, like Spirit at agility class. My previous BC was reactive towards other dogs, which is much harder to discern between aggression. *Usually* with reactive behavior, the dog is more "up," whereas with fear aggressive dogs, there are more avoidance cues, the ears and tail are usually down and tucked, and the dog moves more slowly and more stiff. They will both throw stress signals, because they are both stressed, just for different reasons. As for mix ups between dominant aggressive and reactive behavior.... I will always err on the side of caution and would rather label a dog reactive and work with them that way, than dominant aggressive. Reactivity is far more common, at least in this breed.

 

Thx for noting the differences in the behaviors of the reactive and fear aggressive.

 

 

 

 

Autumn

[Root Beer]

How do you know that one was fear based and one was over stimulation?

 

A good part of it is knowing the dog in a larger context. I had seen him hide from other dogs and people enough to know that he was extremely fearful of them. When that began to escalate into reactivity, it was clear from the whole picture that fear was at the root of it. Also, the look in his eyes and his overall body language was pretty clear.

 

I also knew him well enough by the time the stimulation issues began to show up to see that something different was going on. The look in his eyes and the body language was somewhat different.

 

Granted, at that time I did not understand a whole lot about what was going on, but in retrospect, and working with him for all of those years, it's very clear to me now.

 

What about the dog said that? And wouldn't the root of each of those still be the same inside the dog? I'm thinking about Geonni's excerpt about anxiety and how it builds to a chronic stage. The post in the stress thread I started.

 

It's very possible that there was some overlap, but to me it was pretty clear that there was some distinction. Again, the eyes and overall body language said quite a lot.

 

I think, also, that seeing how he changed as I worked with him really made it clear that the fear and stimulation were two distinct issues. The fear gradually transformed into confidence and trust. The stimulation transformed into self control. And, actually, we made a lot more progress with his fear issues earlier on, and the stimulation took much longer.

 

One thing about Speedy - that, in retrospect was a very good thing - is that once he was removed from a situation in which he was fearful, he bounced back very quickly. The anxiety that he experienced when out and about in the world melted away at home. In some ways that made things more difficult for me early on because I saw the dog he was at home and it was very difficult to see how much he struggled when out and about. But when we started to make some progress, that became a good thing because at home he would always "reset".

[Blackdawgs]

This makes sense to me. Given your last statement re: introspection, how much do you believe these physiologic responses can be reversed through counter-conditioning while under threshold? I know the answer largely depends on the various aspects of dog and handler. I am just wondering if you think it can actually be changed inside or will one always have to manage?

 

To some extent, my dog will always have to be managed. I think that over time, we become so adept at reading these dogs, we don't even realize that we are managing them.

 

In my dog's case, she didn't love agility enough for the stuff in the environment not to be stressful to her. She is much less reactive in a herding environment probably because she is very focused on the sheep.

 

The thing about agility is that the environment will always be new, different places, different distractions, different noises, different smells, different dogs, so I figured that counterconditioning would be futile. And her doing agility just wasn't important in the grand scheme of things.

[Root Beer]

To some extent, my dog will always have to be managed. I think that over time, we become so adept at reading these dogs, we don't even realize that we are managing them.

 

I'd like to add something to this, too, if you don't mind! In some ways they do get better. In some ways a point comes where you no longer need to manage. But in other ways there is always still more room for improvement. There is always potential for the dog to become more comfortable, more confident, and more . . . normal. There is always potential for the dog to learn more self control. But in some ways they really do change, and no longer need the kind of management that they did to begin with, even when there is still a need in some circumstances.

 

In fact, watching this very transformation has been one of the most amazing things I have ever witnessed. It has shown me a glimpse of the depth of what dogs are capable of.

[flyer]

A good part of it is knowing the dog in a larger context. I had seen him hide from other dogs and people enough to know that he was extremely fearful of them. When that began to escalate into reactivity, it was clear from the whole picture that fear was at the root of it. Also, the look in his eyes and his overall body language was pretty clear.

 

I also knew him well enough by the time the stimulation issues began to show up to see that something different was going on. The look in his eyes and the body language was somewhat different.

 

Right. Flamincomet also explains the difference in her post.

[flyer]

I have done a lot of work with trauma survivors and both of your responses could be said of the outcomes I see there. Motivation for making the changes is very important and yes, individual to each person such as agility was or was not for each of your dogs. Of course there are always events in life that can trigger into PTSD again. Just like with dogs. Then the tools and self care come out again for awhile.

 

I think genetically predisposed anxiety works in a similar way. Colt's father was extremely shy and I have seen Colt go through pretty reactive stages, up and barky, with approaching strangers at the ages every dog is naturally transitioning such as four mos. six mos and 16 mos.. I have had to help him though each stage for a few weeks at a time and then he has been fine again. I am holding out hope that as he hits maturity we have it taken care of and he will continue to be fine.

[pansmom]

pansmom, I read somewhere recently that bathroom fixtures, i.e. tubs diffuse the energy dogs feel from electric storms? Most dogs will head to the bathroom and lie behind a toilet or up against the tub. My Piper dog did this. The article talks about how dogs sense on many more levels than we do and so for some electric storms are overwhelming to their systems.

 

Flyer, that is so interesting! Thanks for the tip! Any idea where you read it? We'd like to read the article... But it seems on the mark. She does seem better since she started hiding in the bathroom (basically, yes, pressed up against the tub).

[pansmom]

ISTM that at least some of what might be labeled "Reactive" behavior may just be due to what I see as a tendency of some BCs to be overly dramatic. I think that my dog will give exaggerated responses in an attempt to very clearly communicate to me - i.e. acting totally overwrought at getting brushed, which he will certainly stand for and knows full well won't kill him. But he won't take treats when being brushed, which I hear is a sure-fire sign of being too overstimulated/fearful - I think he is just ensuring I know exactly how he feels about it. (BTW, he is very happy and will take any treat as soon as I put the brush away, no lag time.) Or acting totally loonball when we see a little kid he wants to meet, which would make you think overstimulation. But if allowed to go near the kid, he is gentle and in complete control of himself, which says to me he wasn't overstimulated, just making sure I knew what he wanted. I'm not saying there isn't true reactivity, or fear aggression in dogs of ALL breeds. But the most BC-specific thing I've noticed is that compared to every other type of dog I've had or known, they can be extremely expressive, and will really radiate HAPPY or SAD or FEAR so it is unmistakable. I call him my little William Shatner.

 

Vala exaggerates her feelings for others' benefits too. Strangers walking by she wants to pet her (going into this almost invincible cute puppy routine that will even stop serious joggers)--but when she is allowed to go up to the people, like Odin, she's COMPLETELY CONTROLLED, sitting calmly... You should've seen her the other day with the neighbor's three year old toddler in the park, she was so sweet and gentle, first with her head down to show she just wanted love, and then when the girl opened up, staring romantically into the little girl's eyes and getting pet, checking back in with me with eye contact every five seconds for encouragement (this girl had a puppy dog stuffed animal with her at the park and clearly loved dogs, and Vala loves children so much!). When we got her she was extremely expressive about her fears too (esp. in the beginning when she wanted to be comforted, she would shake or make this really sad scared whimpering sound, which was so heartbreaking I simply had to swoop in and pick her up to save her from whatever situation--usually if she was scared of another animal--this was when she was feeling really sick). And of course she is super expressive when I ask her if she wants to go out, she will dance in circles and telegraph euphoria in no uncertain terms! I love that dance. She's learned not to jump on me during it, and she'll stop if I ask her "what do we do?" and sit calmly to get her leash on, so what do I care if she does a jig when she realizes we're going for a walk? The interesting thing about her (and my last BC mix) is they not only radiate emotion, but also pick it up. For a while there we were having trouble getting Vala to kennel up at night because she didn't want to go and was communicating that by going to other places she'd prefer to sleep instead (like in the bathroom or on the bed) but then about a week ago I started making a conscious effort to tell her to kennel up in a super happy tone and it was startlingly effective, wish I'd remembered this tactic sooner--immediately she started doing exactly what I asked, prancing happily to her kennel, like since I was saying it so happy kenneling up must be fun! I really love how tuned in to our emotions, and expressive, she is. She's so happy most of the time, it makes for a lot of smiles.

[pansmom]

Mr. McCaig, I am curious. I would guess based on what I know of your background -- and please do correct me if I'm wrong, I'll admit I haven't had the time to read your work yet, unfortunately -- but it seems to me that in your dealings with (mostly? all?) well-bred working border collies, you might have come across less "reactive" dogs than people in the rescue world or pet world do (where we don't know a dog's lineage, and dogs may have really screwy genes from having some or both parents conformation-selected, so are thus less likely to have sound temperaments). Again, I apologize that I haven't read your work, so I don't know how much you may have worked with "problem" BCs, if at all. Shoot, I'd be willing to hazard a guess that even genetically flawed BCs that work are less likely to become problems because they get to be in the zone, doing what they were bred to do, for much of the day! But still, would you say that as a working border collie handler, it could be possible that, although you don't have need of the label "reactive" yourself, interacting with dogs in the way you do -- which must be drastically different from the way someone like me does, with an active but primarily companion type home -- the label could be useful to others who have BCs as companions? Coming from my perspective, because these words help me understand how to treat a very intelligent and sensitive dog who lives as a companion in my home, I believe "fear aggressive" and "reactive" are useful labels each. So what I'm asking is, would you agree that although the label of "reactive" seems only "vague to meaningless" to you, it might be more meaningful to others who offer the dogs a drastically different role? And if not, I'm very interested to what extent you have dealt with behavioral problems, if any, in working dogs, and whether you attribute that to breeding or handling! And if a combination of both or primarily handling, I'd love to hear an anecdote or two about how you handled it! Thanks!

[pansmom]

This makes sense to me. Given your last statement re: introspection, how much do you believe these physiologic responses can be reversed through counter-conditioning while under threshold? I know the answer largely depends on the various aspects of dog and handler. I am just wondering if you think it can actually be changed inside or will one always have to manage?

 

Here is an example of how to work with reactivity when the dog is under threshold (don't know what the technical term for this is, but it's what my veterinary behaviorist told me to do). It's very simple and not hard. Pan had sound reactivity. Anytime she heard a new sound she hadn't heard before (once it was the sound of a paper clip dropping on the counter, so it could literally be a pin dropping), she got excited. She'd bark like crazy and go over threshold, barking. The sound reactivity seemed to be separate from her fear aggression--she wasn't showing fear signs, at the sign of these new sounds, she was just reacting to the new sound, going on alert and barking over and over. However, if I taught her through desensitization that that particular specific sound was good--as in, two reps of the new sound, for example, dropping a paper clip on the counter, but followed immediately by throwing her a treat--she would immediately stop the reactive display and simply wait for the treat. For that sound, from then on, she would be cured.

 

My current dog Vala had some mild sound reactivity, and some reactivity to me moving my arms around or dancing in the house or singing. Even watching TV at first made her run away and hide. Anytime I made a weird sound or danced or moved quickly, she went on alert and ran to me and started barking like can I help? What can I do? What's going on? Yahhh!!! (She's a nervous sweetheart.) I worked through all that with her by ignoring the alert behavior, telling her "no" if she got in my space, and only responding to her when she went calm. And also praising her to high heaven when she was calm when I did these things. She got used to these triggers pretty quickly. Now she lays down and stares at me like are you crazy if I dance in the house. Or sometimes she'll happily dance with me. Depends on her mood. But she doesn't bark or seem nervous anymore.

 

More on the difference between reactivity and fear aggression: my experience has been that reactivity is relatively easy to work through with desensitization and ignoring. My experience has been that fear aggression is much, much harder. Pan's fear aggression, in the end, I couldn't work through, because she went so over threshold it was insane. With the sound reactivity, let's say she was like a 6, where a 5 is threshold. Her fear aggression was like an 11 on a scale of 1-10. She turned into Kujo, would wet herself at the same time as lunging at your face or hands to bite you (and she could jump really high and was like 50 pounds). She did not have good bite inhibition and would bite us, her owners, breaking skin, when in this state. In the end, that is why we made the heartbreaking and very difficult decision to put her down (mostly because we knew we wanted kids and although I knew I could spend 3 hours a day for the next two years and probably make her behavior manageable to live in a house with two adults, I did not think I could ever help her to the point where I could safely keep her in a house with kids, and she was scared to death being outside, so I couldn't help her, and couldn't rehome her--because she had bitten us so many times).

 

This is why I say the labels are so different, and so useful. I would never adopt another fear aggressive dog (sorry, but my heart has already been broken once). But I happily adopted a dog I knew was reactive, because I saw how respectful and sweet she was to all the people she met and how much she loved them, and because I saw what she did when she was scared--ran away and hid. A reactive dog that hides is easy to manage, so there's not a name for that. A reactive dog that turns aggressive--there's a name for that, "fear aggression," because it's pathological and possibly even dangerous (esp. if the dog has low bite inhibition and is large and has no compunction about showing aggression toward humans). This is not to say that all dogs with fear aggression need to be PTS! On the contrary the reason I tried for eight months with the help of trainers and then a behaviorist to save Pan is I had heard many wonderful success stories of people (many of them here) who had learned to manage their dog's behavior. I think, in the end though, that Pan was a very severe case. But she doesn't make me wary of all "reactive" dogs at all. I actually don't mind at all working with reactive dogs of the non-fear-aggressive variety because it's easy and rewarding.

[flyer]

Flyer, that is so interesting! Thanks for the tip! Any idea where you read it? We'd like to read the article... But it seems on the mark. She does seem better since she started hiding in the bathroom (basically, yes, pressed up against the tub).

 

It's got to do with the enamel. I've read so much in the past two weeks I can't remember where I read this but I'll see if I can find it later today when I have some time.

[pansmom]

It's got to do with the enamel. I've read so much in the past two weeks I can't remember where I read this but I'll see if I can find it later today when I have some time.

 

 

Thank you!

[G. Festerling]

One thing I would like to say is that in my use, reactive is not always bad.

My animals have to respond to stimulation (stole that phrase of Wiktionary). Or as with my herding dogs, I use the natural tendency of my dogs to shape and train so that I can control and use it. Same with the frisbee, protection work etc.

 

Not being able to control or being outside of normal and acceptable limits of reactivity....obviously, not so good.

And yes, reactivity is now commonly used more in a negative way than not. Which in my mind, has its own problems.

[Root Beer]

One thing I would like to say is that in my use, reactive is not always bad.

My animals have to respond to stimulation (stole that phrase of Wiktionary). Or as with my herding dogs, I use the natural tendency of my dogs to shape and train so that I can control and use it. Same with the frisbee, protection work etc.

 

Not being able to control or being outside of normal and acceptable limits of reactivity....obviously, not so good.

And yes, reactivity is now commonly used more in a negative way than not. Which in my mind, has its own problems.

 

I think that where the line is drawn between normal response to stimulation and reactivity isn't always clear. It's clear in extreme cases, of course.

 

To some extent we all want our dogs to "react". If someone is trying to break into the house in the middle of the night, I want my dogs to bark, lunge, growl, etc. When a stranger (vacuum cleaner salesperson, for instance) comes to my house, even during the day, I step outside and let my dogs continue to bark up a storm inside the house. But typically, we don't want our dogs to do the same thing when one is taking the dog for a walk and another dog is being walked by on the opposite side of the street. Or when invited guests come to the house.

 

I would say that for a response to stimulation to be considered "reactivity", it needs to be happening in a way that would be considered inappropriate, in some way detrimental to the dog or others, or there needs to be some lack of ability to control the response on the part of the dog.

[amilynn92]

Hi there,

I am fairly new to this forum, but I have been with several trainers and a behaviorist and every time I get a different opinion. My 10 month old bc has had issues since he was sixth months. He will bark and lunge at anyone close enough to him while he is on a lead. He is uncontrollable. This is my first bc but I have owned other dogs and I am not sure how to help him. He goes to dog parks and doggy daycare, and acts very well behaved off his lead. I cannot get him to calm down and heel when walking. I know he can be trained and fixed but I just don't know how. Everyone says he is reactive borderline aggressive. Any suggestions?

[Tess's Girl]

This is a really old thread, you may have more luck if you post a new one. You say you have had different opinions but what have you actually tried with your dog and how long?

 

I would start a new thread and include that information and more peope may be able to help you.