Reactive dog or simply BC

[flyer]

As I mentioned in another thread I started I have been lurking on a couple of "reactive dog" BB's. I am reading a lot of material which makes me doubt that Colt is actually reactive in any kind of troubling way.

 

How would you define reactive and how does that compare to most BC's?

[mbc1963]

Well, I picked up the term "reactive" from my trainer, who used it to distinguish Buddy's behavior from aggression.

 

Buddy will react too-strongly to stimuli that normal dogs tolerate well: mainly other dogs getting in his face or charging at him, and humans moving too fast or suddenly lurching at him. (The list used to be a lot longer, but he's calmed down a lot.) Buddy doesn't charge at people, barking and growling, but if a person suddenly leans over him, he will bark and maybe growl in fear as he backs away. He doesn't approach other dogs with the intention of causing harm - in fact, he'll do everything he can to avoid getting too close. But if the other dog crosses his personal space threshold too fast, Buddy will snarl and snap and drive it away.

 

So, that's how I've taken to defining reactivity: Buddy isn't actively being bad or mean - but he is reacting too strongly to some life situations.

 

Mary

[flyer]

Well, I picked up the term "reactive" from my trainer, who used it to distinguish Buddy's behavior from aggression.

 

Buddy will react too-strongly to stimuli that normal dogs tolerate well: mainly other dogs getting in his face or charging at him, and humans moving too fast or suddenly lurching at him. (The list used to be a lot longer, but he's calmed down a lot.) Buddy doesn't charge at people, barking and growling, but if a person suddenly leans over him, he will bark and maybe growl in fear as he backs away. He doesn't approach other dogs with the intention of causing harm - in fact, he'll do everything he can to avoid getting too close. But if the other dog crosses his personal space threshold too fast, Buddy will snarl and snap and drive it away.

 

So, that's how I've taken to defining reactivity: Buddy isn't actively being bad or mean - but he is reacting too strongly to some life situations.

 

Mary

 

Interesting so your dog becomes aggressive in his reactivity. Do you think most dogs are aggressive that are labeled reactive?

 

I was thinking that Colt was reactive as he can get get high rather easily and lose his little mind, i.e. joggers. He doesn't get aggressive at all. He is simply tunes me out and is stressed for a while afterwards. Now Bea can get very "up" but can chill in an instant.

 

I am wondering if I have labeled Colt unnecessarily, though. I have been gentle with him and have been using counter conditioning exercises as he is soft, but I have been experimenting with correcting him verbally for this behavior and he is responding well and has no residual anxiety when the jogger has disappeared. It's a curious thing. Finding the balance.

[Root Beer]

Interesting so your dog becomes aggressive in his reactivity. Do you think most dogs are aggressive that are labeled reactive?

 

I know you didn't ask me, but in my experience, no - most dogs that I've seen labeled as "reactive" are not aggressive. In fact, I've seen the opposite much more - people labeling reactive dogs as "aggressive".

[flyer]

I know you didn't ask me, but in my experience, no - most dogs that I've seen labeled as "reactive" are not aggressive. In fact, I've seen the opposite much more - people labeling reactive dogs as "aggressive".

 

I get you. I have only started to see the difference myself.

 

There is a dog in my agility class that got me thinking about this. He is so playful, keen and young for a 2 yr. old. The owner is very assertive, shall we say, with him. Big leash corrections and harsh verbal reprimands for what I view as exuberant behavior. I always feel bad for him. The instructor has suggested that stop several times, but to no avail. At least the choke collar was removed.

[Maralynn]

Kipp is reactive - he gets so worked up and doesn't know what to do with himself that he reacts to the situation. But he's not looking to pick a fight or be top dog at all. When he relaxes he is him normal mellow self. He was reactive around Kenzi (that was a fun couple of weeks... ) until I showed him that he could just relax around her and things were fine. Once he was calm enough to *think* about the situation all of a sudden Kenzi was no big deal and he was happy to wrestle with her and relax around her.

 

Kenzi is a bit reactive when she gets over stimulated, but it's no big deal compared to Kipp and much easier to get her to chill. It's like Kenzi just gets super excited, where as Kipp was worried about how he was going to handle the situation. Even though Kipp would respond to situations with aggressive behavior, it wasn't rooted in aggression, but rather in fear.

[mbc1963]

Interesting so your dog becomes aggressive in his reactivity. Do you think most dogs are aggressive that are labeled reactive?

 

No, no, the opposite!

 

I absolutely agree with Kristine: if anything, I think a lot of dogs who are labeled "aggressive" are really fearful and reactive. Honestly, people who know Buddy gush all over about how sweet he is, and gentle. You can see after knowing him a few days how he's just trying to avoid trouble and conflict. He doesn't want to make eye contact with strange, tough-looking dogs, and he doesn't want that golden retriever to get all up in his grill. But, in the wrong situation and pushed over his threshold, he looks aggressive, and with the wrong trainer - or going home to the wrong owner - he probably would have ended up euthanized after a few weeks.

 

Your dog sounds like a lower-key version of mine. Buddy used to have "meltdowns" when bikes went by - he would shake and scuttle around as if he were going to get hit, and be unable to focus on me or the lovely scenery or smells. It took him a long time - like the rest of a 20-minute walk - to wind down. The more he's in the world without getting injured by bikes, the less reactive he is. He lets them zoom right by, now.

 

Mary

[pansmom]

OOPS, double post, see below. Sorry.

[pansmom]

I absolutely agree with Kristine: if anything, I think a lot of dogs who are labeled "aggressive" are really fearful and reactive.

 

The board-certified veterinary behaviorist who worked with my last dog (who had fear aggression, sound reactivity, territorial aggression, misdirected aggression, and resource guarding to humans) quoted articles in veterinary and veterinary behavior journals that say 95% of "aggressive" dogs are actually "fear aggressive," which is a particular type of "reactive." Only 5% of aggressive dogs are actually "dominant aggressive" which is the problem that most people try to treat when dealing with an aggressive dog (the treatment for which can actually make fear aggression much worse).

 

That being said, the reverse doesn't necessarily apply (just because most aggressive dogs are actually exhibiting a form of reactivity, doesn't mean most reactive dogs are aggressive). I honestly doubt most reactive dogs are fear aggressive (thank goodness)! My BC, Vala, I would characterize as "reactive" because she fears thudding noises and thunder noises, and had several silly phobias and reactivity to other noises when I got her, including an inexplicable and very sad fear of frisbees. But apart from the thunderphobia, she has responded really well to desensitization, partially because she is quick to learn, very trusting, and EXTREMELY eager to please. And her reactivity basically just involves getting to a safe spot like her kennel or the bathroom corner (at first she ran, pell mell, but over time as she came to feel safer in our home she has come only to just sort of calmly trot into the bathroom at the sound of thunder; where she used to shake and slobber, now she only just lays still and waits it out).

 

I think simply "reactive" dogs are much easier to help work through their issues than "fear aggressive" dogs (esp. fear aggressive dogs that are fear aggressive toward humans or worse yet their owners). The way I see it, "fear aggression" is so much worse a behavior problem than run-of-the-mill "reactivity" that I think it would be very misleading to call a "fear aggressive" dog simply "reactive."

[flyer]

All the replies are very helpful. So there are a number of different ways reactivity manifests. I think that BC's are probably quite sensitive and reactive dogs in general and that what I see in Colt could be seen either way. As in, a BC person might say he was perfectly normal and a non BC person would say he was a pretty reactive dog. He has good days and bad days as well.

 

I think the thread I started about stress has thrown some light on my uncertainty as well. I believe I manage to keep my dogs stress levels low but they live around high stressors for any sensitive animal. Big city life. Fortunately I also have forest and farmland very close by.

 

pansmom, I read somewhere recently that bathroom fixtures, i.e. tubs diffuse the energy dogs feel from electric storms? Most dogs will head to the bathroom and lie behind a toilet or up against the tub. My Piper dog did this. The article talks about how dogs sense on many more levels than we do and so for some electric storms are overwhelming to their systems.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

In my brief experience "reactive" dogs belong to positive trainers/Skinnerite Behaviorists. After a quarter century with sheepdogs I first heard the term two years ago in a positive trainer's class.

 

I don't know what it means or how the term is useful. Is Peg - who is first to bark when the UPS man appears reactive? Or is she the designated sentry? Is Luke who bounces around like a lunatic in his crate but can lie on his back and be body searched by TSA dopes? Maybe it's Danny, whose focus cuts on and he chases sheep indifferent to any command but who would crawl in a stranger's lap and stay quietly for hours. Or Bullet proof June who laid absolutely still while a line of kindergarden kids patted her but recently tried to help kill an elderly guard dog.

 

Last spring I was at the dog park in Manhattan's Washington Square Park. In the park a dog walker insisted that Luke and June weren't Border Collies. "They're so calm!"

 

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Depends.

 

Donald McCaig

[Maralynn]

Dear Doggers,

 

In my brief experience "reactive" dogs belong to positive trainers/Skinnerite Behaviorists. After a quarter century with sheepdogs I first heard the term two years ago in a positive trainer's class.

 

I don't know what it means or how the term is useful.

 

 

I would have to disagree with this assessment. I use a variety of training methods depending on the dog, depending on the situation. Some reward based, some punishment based. Kipp simply didn't know how to deal with the pressure of other dogs. He would get over the top excited in the presence of other dogs and do a great "cujo" impersonation. Not because he was an aggressive dog (he is a mild mannered bottom of the totem pole dog) but because he felt pressured into reacting. I tried several ways of dealing with this (and a person more skilled than I might have been able to solve the problem faster), but what worked the best was teaching him how to be calm in a reward based manner. The change in him has been marked. I used to walk passed vehicles with excited barking dogs in the back and he would be straining at the leash and barking back. Now he simply looks to me for direction. If I see him start to tense up a calm "hey - that's enough" calms him back down.

 

To me, "reactive" is simply a description of what is going on. The dog is reacting to the situation. With my reactive dog I need to teach him to calm down and think instead of simply reacting

[Root Beer]

Dear Doggers,

 

In my brief experience "reactive" dogs belong to positive trainers/Skinnerite Behaviorists. After a quarter century with sheepdogs I first heard the term two years ago in a positive trainer's class.

 

I know quite a few trainers who use corrections who have reactive dogs, and would describe them as such. So, no - they don't just belong to reinforcement trainers, nor just to those who consider themselves behaviorists. In fact, most of the folks I come across with reactive dogs wouldn't know behavior theory if it kicked them in the face. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, just that reactivity is not a tern used only within the realm of "behaviorists".

 

I don't know what it means or how the term is useful.

 

I found the term very useful back when my dog was literally losing his head whenever another dog or person looked at him. At that time, I did not understand why he responded that way, nor why he couldn't seem to control those responses. It helped me to understand that my dog wasn't "bad", but that he had some problems with which he was going to need some special help from me.

 

Just as knowing that this same dog has arthritis now gives me information that I need to provide him with things to help him feel better physically (meds, appropriate exercise, proper hydration, etc.), knowing that he was reactive gave me information that I needed to provide him with things to help him to deal with the things that "set him off" mentally (training, appropriate space, etc.). So, in that way knowing and understanding the term was extremely useful.

 

Nowadays this dog passes for normal in almost all situations. That's because understanding his reactivity gave me the information that I needed to help him.

[Ooky]

ISTM that at least some of what might be labeled "Reactive" behavior may just be due to what I see as a tendency of some BCs to be overly dramatic. I think that my dog will give exaggerated responses in an attempt to very clearly communicate to me - i.e. acting totally overwrought at getting brushed, which he will certainly stand for and knows full well won't kill him. But he won't take treats when being brushed, which I hear is a sure-fire sign of being too overstimulated/fearful - I think he is just ensuring I know exactly how he feels about it. (BTW, he is very happy and will take any treat as soon as I put the brush away, no lag time.) Or acting totally loonball when we see a little kid he wants to meet, which would make you think overstimulation. But if allowed to go near the kid, he is gentle and in complete control of himself, which says to me he wasn't overstimulated, just making sure I knew what he wanted. I'm not saying there isn't true reactivity, or fear aggression in dogs of ALL breeds. But the most BC-specific thing I've noticed is that compared to every other type of dog I've had or known, they can be extremely expressive, and will really radiate HAPPY or SAD or FEAR so it is unmistakable. I call him my little William Shatner.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Root Beer wrote:

 

"I found the term very useful back when my dog was literally losing his head whenever another dog or person looked at him. At that time, I did not understand why he responded that way, nor why he couldn't seem to control those responses. It helped me to understand that my dog wasn't "bad", but that he had some problems with which he was going to need some special help from me."

 

Yeah, its probably a bad idea to attribute medieval human moral codes to dogs. "Bad Dog!" is evidence not of doggy wickedness but trainer ineptitude. Fearfulness, even extreme fearfulness is a fairly well known phenomenon too. Lots of remedies are available without needing the vague-to-meaningless "reactive".

 

Donald McCaig

[mbc1963]

Yeah, its probably a bad idea to attribute medieval human moral codes to dogs. "Bad Dog!" is evidence not of doggy wickedness but trainer ineptitude. Fearfulness, even extreme fearfulness is a fairly well known phenomenon too. Lots of remedies are available without needing the vague-to-meaningless "reactive".

 

Donald McCaig

 

I don't think it's particularly vague, nor meaningless.

 

I find "reactive" quite a descriptive as well as useful term to distinguish from "aggressive," which often, in our culture, = PTS.

 

Fearful isn't necessarily the same thing.

 

Mary

[flyer]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Root Beer wrote:

 

"I found the term very useful back when my dog was literally losing his head whenever another dog or person looked at him. At that time, I did not understand why he responded that way, nor why he couldn't seem to control those responses. It helped me to understand that my dog wasn't "bad", but that he had some problems with which he was going to need some special help from me."

 

Yeah, its probably a bad idea to attribute medieval human moral codes to dogs. "Bad Dog!" is evidence not of doggy wickedness but trainer ineptitude. Fearfulness, even extreme fearfulness is a fairly well known phenomenon too. Lots of remedies are available without needing the vague-to-meaningless "reactive".

 

Donald McCaig

 

Now see I agree with this. There are many people who are not "behaviorists/Skinnerians who would not label their dog as bad for being fearful or even fear aggressive and would not handle it in a heavy handed manner. When I look back at growing up with all the different dogs we had and saw my mom handle each one, well, we never had a problem dog even if we had a particularly "reactive" one. She taught us kid's a mixture of reinforcement and punishment. She also let dogs be dogs and we all loved the dogs and included them in our lives.

 

I admit I am completely confused right now about the whole concept which is just fine. It's a natural stage of learning for me when I take in so much info from so many sources and then attempt to process it all.

[Root Beer]

Yeah, its probably a bad idea to attribute medieval human moral codes to dogs. "Bad Dog!" is evidence not of doggy wickedness but trainer ineptitude.

 

It is also an attitude that many people who are just getting started in dog training, as I was at that time, have toward undesired behavior in dogs.

 

Of course, since then I have learned a great deal and I no longer think of any dogs in such a way. Especially that one. But I still hear it more often than I would expect from others.

 

Fearfulness, even extreme fearfulness is a fairly well known phenomenon too. Lots of remedies are available without needing the vague-to-meaningless "reactive".

 

Actually, this particular dog was both severely fearful and reactive. Some of his reactivity stemmed from the fear. Some from other factors in play with him at the time. Not all fearful dogs are reactive. Not all reactive dogs are highly fearful. There is definitely a distinction, even though the two often do go hand in hand.

 

Personally, I do not find the term to be vague or meaningless at all. It tells me some very specific things about the dog, and about which approaches will most likely be of significant help to the dog and, of course, to the handler of the dog.

[Blackdawgs]

I have a rescue dog that was labelled "fear aggressive" by a veterinary behaviorist and "reactive" by trainers. I think that the term "reactive" is useful, if it is used as a source of introspection and action by the owner. The term is useless and damaging, if used as an excuse.

[Maralynn]

I think that the term "reactive" is useful, if it is used as a source of introspection and action by the owner. The term is useless and damaging, if used as an excuse.

 

Yes!!! I normally don't like labels as I think they can be used as an excuse for bad behavior or too invoke a sense of sympathy when the what the dog really needs is good leadership and training. But they can be useful to help the owner understand what is going on and then acting upon it.

[flyer]

I have a rescue dog that was labelled "fear aggressive" by a veterinary behaviorist and "reactive" by trainers. I think that the term "reactive" is useful, if it is used as a source of introspection and action by the owner. The term is useless and damaging, if used as an excuse.

 

 

Hmm...I was thinking about the use of labels in our society and how we have more of them since as the study of psychology advances. Labels such as alcoholic, ADD, depressive, gifted, prodigy. The labels can be very disconcerting initially, but can also be the beginning of getting a handle on things for many many people or dog owners.

[flyer]

SNIP>

Actually, this particular dog was both severely fearful and reactive. Some of his reactivity stemmed from the fear. Some from other factors in play with him at the time. Not all fearful dogs are reactive. Not all reactive dogs are highly fearful. There is definitely a distinction, even though the two often do go hand in hand.

 

Personally, I do not find the term to be vague or meaningless at all. It tells me some very specific things about the dog, and about which approaches will most likely be of significant help to the dog and, of course, to the handler of the dog.

 

 

RB, could you elaborate on the distinction you mention here? I was thinking that reactivity is an emotional state not a physical response.

[Root Beer]

Hmm...I was thinking about the use of labels in our society and how we have more of them since as the study of psychology advances. Labels such as alcoholic, ADD, depressive, gifted, prodigy. The labels can be very disconcerting initially, but can also be the beginning of getting a handle on things for many many people or dog owners.

 

Absolutely. The day I looked into Speedy's eyes and really saw that something was not right with his brain was the day I was able to start helping him.

 

I guess when it comes down to it, labels are what you make of them. If you use them as a reason to do nothing, then they are bad. If you let them spur you on to make things better for the dog (or yourself or someone else, whichever applies), then they are good.

[vaporflowers]

I suppose I think of "reactivity" as meaning overemotional/overreactive. The best example I can think of is a dog who experiences leash/barrier frustration, excitement, and anxiety when brought to a dog training class or otherwise around dogs. They might begin to whine, then growl, then escalate to an aggressive display. A reactive dog is one who is "highly charged". They might be completely easy going, playful, and submissive around the dogs off the leash, but are reactive with the added factor of being on lead.

[Root Beer]

RB, could you elaborate on the distinction you mention here? I was thinking that reactivity is an emotional state not a physical response.

 

I would agree that it is an emotional state. But how do we (the humans) know about it? By the physical response that the dog has in response to the emotional state.

 

Do you mind if I use my own dog as an example? It's just easiest.

 

Back when Speedy was at the worst point of his reactivity, what I saw were "bugged out" eyes, the tension in his body, the barking, the lunging, the panting, etc. That was the external reaction that he had as a result of his internal emotional reaction. Say, to a dog looking at him.

 

This sets up an example to make the distinction. In that case, the external reaction was a result of his internal emotional reaction, which was extreme fear when another dog made eye contact with him.

 

But he had a similar reaction when he saw dogs running Agility. In that case, the external reaction was a result of the stimulation that he experienced when he saw that. There was no fear in the picture. Those dogs weren't paying any attention to him and he knew it.

 

In both cases, though, he was reacting to something that made his brain, in plain talk, go haywire. But in one case, fear was in play. In the other it was pure stimulation from the motion. What it looked like on the outside, though, was very similar.

 

Does that make sense?