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Would you clone


Alfreda
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your "heart dog"...?

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/30/418642018/disgraced-scientist-clones-dogs-and-critics-question-his-intent

 

 

This recent (NPR) news item on cloning dogs reminded me of a herding instructor I had who never got over the loss of her very best dog. He was great on sheep, and in every other way, from day 1.... She said if she could have, she absolutely would have....

 

 

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No, I worked at a large animal hospital and one of the clients was a business that cloned cows. I'm not sure if they weren't good at it (they were out of business in a couple of years) or if you get a lot of "rejects" before getting a "healthy" clone but what I saw forever soured me on cloning.

The survival of a species is dependent on genetic diversity.

Instead of thinking of it as a clone, think of it as a identical twin. How many identical twins act the same? Even if you had the money and got a healthy clone (after how many unhealthy rejects and what happens to them anyway?) it isn't really your "heart dog" and will never have the personality (soul?) that your previous dog did.

I will cherish the memories of my previous pets and embrace the different quirks the current ones have!!!!

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No, I would not. Aside from the tremendous cost, the program points out that there are many unanswered questions - like what happens to the dogs being subject to surgery for egg harvest and surrogacy. No one would answer that question at the facility where the procedures were being done. How about the evidence that cloned animals do not live the same length of healthy life that their non-cloned counterparts generally do? Would I want to produce a clone knowing that the likelihood of health or other issues is increased? Cloned animals, like identical twins, are not necessarily "identical" - there are things that happen that alter the intellectual and emotional state of two other-wise identical beings, and there are things that happen that can even turn certain genes on or off. Have you ever seen cloned calves? They do not necessarily look the same but actually can have significant differences even just in appearance.

 

In addition, and maybe I'm in a minority, but I believe an animal is not just the sum of its genetic makeup but that it, like people, possesses something more - a soul, if you want to call it that. So while producing a clone might produce something that is very physically like the one you are trying to reproduce, will you still have the same intelligence and personality?

 

And would I want to do all this, in spite of all my questions about doing it, when there are healthy animals needing homes and dying on a daily basis because there are not homes for them? I guess I think it's kind of selfish when that kind of money could help many animals (and people, too) that need it rather than to try and satisfy my desire to not lose a favorite to old age, disease, or accident.

 

I'm probably over-reacting here but I listened to the same article and this is how it struck me. Your mileage may vary.

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Too expensive, and really, why? Well, I can think of one reason... When I got Sugarfoot she had had a bad start in life, and it took literally years for her to get on an even keel. So it would be interesting to have a clone of her to see how it grew up with a sane upbinging. On the other hand... What if it was mega-stressed out for the first few years of her life anyway?

 

But, back in reality - people always wish they could breed their spayed heart dog so they could have another as cool, but since they can't, they get another, often totally unrelated dog and end up falling hard for it too. In a world where thousands of dogs suffer and die needlessly every day, do we really need another way to create more dogs?

 

E.T.A. Oh... Sue already said a bunch of this... :P

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I think people are just setting themselves up for heartache. There is no way a cloned dog will be just like your "heart" dog.

 

My oldest daughter was close friends with identical twins in middle school and high school. In some ways the girls were so alike it was eerie. As babies their mother had to get help because the girls began speaking in their own, invented, language. As adults they married about a year apart but both gave birth to their first child (boys) only a few weeks apart. And yet, these twins have such different styles and personalities that it is easy to tell them apart. They are very connected to each other but are so different.

 

I adopted my rescue dog because she looks so like my daughter's dog. I love having "twin" collies but I also love that they couldn't be more different when it comes to personality and temperament.

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Heck, no. You can't clone personality, temperament or any of the myriad individual traits that make up any living creature. You can't clone the way Nick grabs his toys at meal times and bounces around the kitchen with them until I start dishing up. You can't clone the way he hops up on the bed when we first start stirring in the morning, and then plops down in a big lump next to my legs, warm and loving, until we finally get up. You can't clone the smile in his eyes or the ridiculous way he barks at his Big Red Ball or the funny way his upper lip sticks to one canine and make him look like a doggie hayseed. You can't clone how he plops his big head on my knee when he wants a bit of attention, or how he moves a large flock with the steady, calming gait of a true-born shepherd and I barely have to speak a word.

Sure, you can clone his body and all the physical sum of his parts. But you can't clone him.

Nope. No way. There is and will only ever be one Nick.

~ Gloria

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Somewhere I heard a story about a guy who had this bull that was sweet and gentle, like a pet. The guy had it cloned when it was getting on in years, and the clone gored him to death.

 

I just spent about 20 minutes trying to track down this story on line, with no result, so it may be apocryphal.

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I wouldn't, but for the simple reason that after all of that money and effort that still will not be 'your dog'. That dog will be far more likely to disappoint you because you will expect the dog to act just like your old dog. There would also be things that you romanticize about your old dog, because that's what humans do when they lose something they love. I feel like you're only setting yourself up for heartbreak and the dog up for failure.

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Nope. For most of the reasons outlined above.

 

Another recent article on the subject - http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/30/428927516/cloning-your-dog-for-a-mere-100-000?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150930

 

That one really kinda rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe the idea of a vet entertaining the idea of euthanizing a healthy pup as it was the wrong breed. Or the whole big deal about a $50 pup when they're happy spending loads of money on other things they want (which I don't begrudge people enjoying their money, just that their priorities seem odd)

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No. Even if all would go perfect and I could get a perfect copy of Speedy, it wouldn't be him and I would know it. The dog might be similar in personality, but that dog and I would not share the experiences that Speedy and I did. I actually think it would be more difficult for me to have a perfect physical copy of him than a completely different dog altogether - even that presents difficulties for me at times, but somehow the fact that Bandit is himself and nobody else is a very, very, very good thing. Bandit is helping me move on. A Speedy clone would make that next to impossible.

 

I don't think I will ever completely get over the way I lost Speedy, and - even more - not having him in my life. But cloning is absolutely not the answer. Even if it cost next to nothing and were foolproof, I would not do it. It's part of life to move on - no matter how difficult. At some point you just have to.

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No, for most of the reasons mentioned. I am not religious but the concept of messing with nature in such an extreme way makes me very uneasy, this applies to commercial and non commercial uses.

Humans have been messing with plants and animals forever but when surgery is needed it seems to cross a line for me.

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No. Learning to let go should be part of life however much money you have.

 

The things you loved about your dog will often appear randomly in other dogs that may superficially be like the one you have lost. Go with it. Life is surprising - look forward, not back.

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No. I love each of my dogs as individuals. There will never be another one of any of them. That's what makes them so special.

 

Also, part of what shapes a dog is the experiences that they have. A hypothetical cloned dog wouldn't have the same experiences as the original dog. Thus - they could never be the same. Huge set up for failure if you ask me.

 

BTW - I love the program This American Life....

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Certain characteristics and behaviors would most likely be very similar or even the same, but since the life experiences can't be duplicated and genes can be expressed differently there's no way the self-same animal could be recreated exactly.

 

I joke all the time about cloning Bodhi, not that I'd ever be able to do if even if I were serious. But if I were to do it, I'd know that the best I'd ever get is a dog that resembled him, not the identical one, either in looks or personality.

 

I wonder what -- if any -- effect it might have had to have used cells from an abnormal growth (a mole) rather than from healthy tissue? Could that make a difference in the outcome of the cloned animal?

 

The story of Chance and Second Chance (who, btw did gore his owner -- twice! -- but didn't kill him) ends with a quote by their owner . . . "When he died the second time, it was just as bad as when he died the first time. It never occurred to us that we'd lose him again."

 

Just musing . . .

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I would love to have the chance to 'redo' things with some of my old dogs. To train a couple with the knowledge I have 25+ years later! I am grateful to those dogs for teaching me so much.

I also realize the "redo's" wouldn't be the same simply because I HAVE learned so much more over the years. They wouldn't be the same simply because of environment. And the cost is prohibitive. And not having genetic material from them makes it a pipe dream.

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If it would *really* work, it would be tempting. But, for all the reasons stated above by others, even if they perfected cloning to the point that the clone would be healthy, it would still not be the same dog and never could be. Animals, like us, are not just their DNA but are the sum of all of their life experiences and whatever it is that makes up their heart or spirit or whatever you want to call it, and one could never duplicate an individual.

Now, if they ever perfect a method to allow an animal to live in good health and strength for an extra 10 or 20 years, I will be all over that!

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Animals, like us, are not just their DNA but are the sum of all of their life experiences and whatever it is that makes up their heart or spirit or whatever you want to call it, and one could never duplicate an individual.

Now, if they ever perfect a method to allow an animal to live in good health and strength for an extra 10 or 20 years, I will be all over that!

^^^this is how I feel also... we are more than our genetics, more than our epi-genetics, more than our experiences even... Somehow trying to engineer a replacement feels, I don't know, disloyal, or disrespectful to that beloved individual.

 

I agree with many of the points made. I also understand the yearning to go back and the desire to hold on.

 

It does seem as if the engineers are always outstripping the pace with which we're able to sort out our priorities, values, and "best" uses. The comment my instructor made was over a decade ago. Now that cloning dogs is more of a reality, I wonder if she would feel the same, and I wonder if, in another 10 years cloning pets will be as common as cosmetic surgery and drones are now...?

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My biggest issues with cloning pets are the incredible amount of money it costs that could be used to ease the suffering of so many other creatures and subjecting the animals who are used for donors and surrogates to unnecessary surgical procedures without their consent for questionable purposes.

 

Both are pretty significant ethical dilemmas IMO.

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Well my heart dog is very unhealthy so no. I wouldn't anyways because it wouldn't be 'her' anyways.

 

It would be pretty neat to get a Hank that I could raise from a puppy though. That is kind of tempting.

 

 


Nope. For most of the reasons outlined above.

Another recent article on the subject - http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/30/428927516/cloning-your-dog-for-a-mere-100-000?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150930

That one really kinda rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe the idea of a vet entertaining the idea of euthanizing a healthy pup as it was the wrong breed. Or the whole big deal about a $50 pup when they're happy spending loads of money on other things they want (which I don't begrudge people enjoying their money, just that their priorities seem odd)

Wow that is pretty disturbing article in a lot of ways. Putting to sleep a dog because he's a mix.... O.o

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