where am I going wrong, mainly with house breaking?

[skye2014]

I am new to this forum but Skye is our 3rd Border Collie over 30 years. She is now about 12 weeks old. I have been working on basic training, which works well for a treat. Come, sit, down, shake a paw, walking on a leash. How come she learned what "dinner time" means instantly but totally refuses hear "no bite" or "no bark"? And often when walking all she wants to do is bite my feet. I distract her by throwing a ball.

My main concern is with house breaking. She seems to have an endless capacity to pee and poop. She may pee outside in a 10 minute walk 2 times and then pee on the floor when I bring her in. She also poops in the house sometimes only a short time after pooping outside. When she does her jobs outside I praise her and give her a treat.

At night she has a bedding crate separated by a short 2 foot walk to a wood shavings crate which she will poop in at night. I have been afraid to confine her all night to her sleep crate because of this, as she uses it 1 or 2 times somewhere between 2 and 4 am. Most days I feel I have made no progress in house breaking her so am I approaching this wrong? Our last puppy was 15 years ago and I simply do not remember having these problems.

[juliepoudrier]

Oh my, she's precious. Have you tried making going out to go potty just about that, no walks, no play, just potty? Also, in the house she should not be unattended if you can't trust her. She needs to either go right back into her crate or be tethered to you so that she cannot practice potty in the house. Essentially you have to be in charge of preventing mistakes in the house. If you can't prevent her from going potty on the floor, then she should be in her crate.

 

Also be sure to clean the places she goes with a good enzymatic cleaner so she doesn't smell where she went before (which will trigger her to want to go there again).

 

I would also be inclined to stop the freedom of going to the potty crate at night and instead get up with her and take her outside. It's inconvenient for you, but may go a long way toward helping her understand that potty is strictly for outside now.

 

J.

[GentleLake]

This was just addressed in another very recent thread. http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=36555&hl=

 

I'm not going to rewrite everything I said before, but will repeat that I think you're expecting too much of a 12 week old pup.

 

Lots of good info in the thread above. Best wishes.

[Debbie Meier]

I would look at how much she is eating, if she is eating more then she really needs it's going to go right on through and back out again. I would put her on twice a day scheduled feedings with very limited to no treats. Over eating can lead to excess water consumption which leads to more poop and pee.

Also, each pup is different, I have some that can make it all night by the time they are 12-16 weeks and others that can't, some have to go out and poop in the middle of the night and others may need 1 or 2 potty walks. Donnie, going on 22 weeks old is still waking me to go potty at about 3 am, his two 1/2 sisters that are a week younger are making it all night.

Some pups don't get to the point where they can hold all night until they are well over 6 months old, kinda like children that wet the bed longer then others.

[vanillalove]

There are a ton of other house breaking threads and nipping threads here if you do a search but real quickly. She will need to go potty A LOT at that age.

You will need to take her outside at the following times:

- She wakes up

- After she eats or drinks
- After there is any excitement
- After there is play
- After a walk
- After a nap
- Before bed
- Every 20 minutes in between (if you want to be efficient and essentially prevent any accidents inside)

- If you cannot watch her like a hawk, she is crated in a crate only big enough for her to lie down, stand up and turn around.

The more you set her up for success outdoors, the less she goes indoors and the more she connects bathroom with outside. For the first few weeks of bringing Indie home, we set an alarm clock as well for us to get up at 1am and again at 3am. Then it was extended slowly to only one midnight outing, then none. He quickly slept through the night.

Hope this helps! I know I didn't provide much detail but that's potty training for me in a nutshell.

[Cass C]

I certainly wouldn't expect a 12 week old puppy to be potty trained. I don't consider my dog's even half way trustworthy with potty training until they are at least 6 months. One big issue I see is you need to lose the potty box ASAP. You can't expect them to learn that they can only go outside if you tell them they have to ONLY go outside except for the one place/time that it is OK in the house. It sucks, but you need to get up in the middle of the night and take the puppy out. Don't make it a fun outing in the middle of the night; it need to be a strictly potty then right back inside to bed. The puppy should be in a crate that is only big enough to stand up and turn around, because you have let the puppy potty at night any extra crate space may become a bathroom. This also is a great way to encourage control of bodily functions for a puppy, because right now you never make the puppy hold it. I usually extend the amount of time I make them hold it after they start fussing by a few minutes each night.

 

The first week I allow two potty trips at night and I am physically up by 6:00am to start my day with the pup. The next week I drop it down to one, and then by the third week (occasionally half way through the second week if the pup is catching on quickly) they don't go out during the night unless it is an emergency, which just happens to dogs of all ages from time to time. My ten month old border Lyka has a severe grain allergy, and we always know when she gets into something with grains in it because we are up multiple times during the night for a potty break. Thanks to her good potty training she always lets us know when she needs to go out no matter how urgent. You will get to know your puppy well enough to see they really need to potty or are just fussing to get out of the crate.

 

Edit:

 

As far as the nipping I had a serious issue with Lyka nipping at us and I stopped it by stopping any play as soon as she nipped and if she nipped at me while I was walking I would stop dead in my tracks until she walked away or stepped back. It took a while but showed her that nipping at me stopped anything exciting from happening. I never used a command for this I found silence was the best method to tame nipping.

 

And for barking make sure you are timing the "No Bark" command after you have investigated what she is barking at, sometimes it is worth your while just to assure your dog you know what is going on and it is going to be alright. Also don't yell or the dog will think you are also barking, instead wait for a pause in barking typically after the third bark there is a quick pause.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Cass C

[GentleLake]

With all due respect, I think puppies should be fed three meals a day until they're 6 months old. I think most vets and breeders would agree.

 

I've heard it said that no dog should be considered reliably house trained until it's at least a year old. Certainly they should me mostly house trained by that time, but accidents can still happen, as they will with young children.

[Sunday]

My pup wasn't reliable until he was 5 months old. And with that I mean he was confined to one room with no rugs to potty on plus his crate, no access to the rest of the house.

Two things- The puppy should be either be in her crate/play pen, or out playing but supervised 100%. Not 99%. Not with you watching tv, or on the computer, or making yourself a sandwich. If you have to do something which requires you to take your eyes off her, into the crate she goes. If you follow those guidelines, there will be absolutely no opportunity for her to have an accident without you being there to intervene immediately.

And as for night time, yes you will have to drag yourself out of bed once or twice during the night for a while. I don't think the potty box is doing her any good either.

[skye2014]

Thanks for the excellent suggestions. I have read just about all of it on the computer or books and I have to blame myself for being lenient, and lazy and not confining her to the crate all the times I am not able to watch her 100% and that is when she will find the corner to go in. And not wanting to get out of my warm bed at night the wood shavings crate was the easy way out and I knew it.

I agree about that crate, and will stop using it. Now that it is not below freezing at night (we had a brutal winter and very slow start to spring) I will take her out until she is able to hold it until 6am when we get up. Last night I did take her out at 4 am and she did potty and settled back into her sleep crate well. It is me who then is wide awake at 4 am! I know our last BC never messed her sleep crate and I do not remember ever having to take her out at night so maybe I am not trusting Skye's ability.

I will be taking her to the vet next week for her second set of shots and will discuss her diet. Perhaps the food is too rich. She is on a high protein, no grain filler dry food called "Blue Buffalo". For training I use mini Milk Bones that I break in half. We live on a farm and Skye is eating things that I would rather she did not but once she has something she wants it is impossible, at the moment in her training, to get her to give it up. She can run way faster than me.

It also seems the foot biting and mouthing and excited play yapping are common to all puppies and I know it will pass.

My biggest flaw is a lack of patience at times and I will work on that.

[Sue R]

I think it's easy enough to feel that these little smarties should train fast and almost by themselves - I know I've been prone to expect too much, too soon, at too young an age.

 

And there is such variability between individuals. While none of my three that I got as pups was reliably house-trained until about six months of age (like a small child, they all have had that "I'm too busy to stop what I'm doing and go potty where I should" attitude), there was a world of difference in how long they could/would hold things during the day or night.

 

Celt kept getting me up once a night for several months (yes, from the end of December until late winter, snow, cold, wind, rain, whatever) while Dan got me up just once during the night in all his puppyhood - and he tended to take himself to bed early! Dan also, due to family circumstances, was crated/xpenned from 7 am until almost 3 pm from the age of nine weeks until we no longer had a youngster stop by the house after school to potty and play with him - and never a mess in his pen. But I sure had to keep a close eye on him when he was up and about because if I didn't take him out about every hour, he'd have an accident in the house. So he was never out of my sight when loose. Then one day, he went ballistic - jumping at the doors and windows because he had to go potty and wanted to go outside to do it. He finally turned that corner in his self-awareness and training.

 

I have found over the years that it's never really been the dog that's been what held us back in house-training. It's been my willingness to be diligent and pro-active, avoid laziness, and make the effort, within the limits of each animal's personal ability and maturity. I had fewer accidents with Dan than with any other pup but only because *I* made it a priority to do the work it entailed.

 

On another note, if she's going to pick up stuff when outside, you can leash or long-line her. You said she can run away from you. Letting her do that teaches her that that is an option. Dan, who was not very cooperative as a pup, was kept either leashed or on a long-line for quite a long time. I did not give him the option of not responding when he was called. And, if a pup doesn't come back when called, and doesn't respond to your moving *away* from her (which often works wonders), then walk her down (calmly and determinedly walk after her until she realizes you are not going to stop and let her have her way - this can be another valuable lesson). Don't give her the chance to learn she can blow you off.

 

Foot biting and mouthing? Stop the action that encourages it (as others have mentioned). Stop in place and don't move until the behavior stops. Substitute a toy for your body part so she can work out her fun but not at your expense and the development of a bad habit. Say, "OUCH!" or some other expression in a sharp, high-pitched voice (many pups respond to this with a sit-back and thought because that's how pups respond to too-rough play). And for yapping, if there's a toy in her mouth, she can't yap very well.

 

Lack of patience? I know all about that one!

[RETICLEVIEW]

On 5/23/2014 at 7:26 AM, skye2014 said:

I am new to this forum but Skye is our 3rd Border Collie over 30 years. She is now about 12 weeks old. I have been working on basic training, which works well for a treat. Come, sit, down, shake a paw, walking on a leash. How come she learned what "dinner time" means instantly but totally refuses hear "no bite" or "no bark"? And often when walking all she wants to do is bite my feet. I distract her by throwing a ball.

My main concern is with house breaking. She seems to have an endless capacity to pee and poop. She may pee outside in a 10 minute walk 2 times and then pee on the floor when I bring her in. She also poops in the house sometimes only a short time after pooping outside. When she does her jobs outside I praise her and give her a treat.

At night she has a bedding crate separated by a short 2 foot walk to a wood shavings crate which she will poop in at night. I have been afraid to confine her all night to her sleep crate because of this, as she uses it 1 or 2 times somewhere between 2 and 4 am. Most days I feel I have made no progress in house breaking her so am I approaching this wrong? Our last puppy was 15 years ago and I simply do not remember having these problems.

I guess there have been no issues with the little darlings pooping in the house, for the last 5 years, for this is dated 2014. I now have a BC pup, and it's 2019. The things we go through just to own the smartest breed. In the immortal words of Chief Dan George,  endeavor to persevere.

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