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Border Collies and Chasing


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For every person who says, "My dog chases cars/cats/armadillos/the Geiko Gecko because he's a herding dog," someone else can say their dog chases because he's a sight hound, a bird dog, a bear dog, a ratter, et cetera, and so ad infinitum. A dog chases because it's fun and self-rewarding. He may manifest certain physical behaviors particular to his breed, but in my humble opinion, that does not mean he thinks he's answering some primal instinctive urge. He just thinks he's having a darned good time.

 

Gloria

 

Great post. Geiko Gecko... :rolleyes:

 

I'm a big fan of trying to figure things out, but as you say, there are so many factors to consider in the "Ancestral Canid" to Border Collie" continuum that we'll probably never know what traits came from where and how they developed into the quintessential stock dog.

 

Reminds me of many years ago, when I was a Rough Collie person and I encountered a Border Collie at Pt. Isabel, the local dog park, in a crouch and staring intently at my big, hirsute male. "Look!" I cried, "Herding behavior!"

"It is NOT!" denied the owner, hotly.

Then we had this kindergarten argument -

"Is too!"

"Is NOT!"

"Is TOO!"

"IS NOT!"

 

Sort of embarrassing to realize... doggone it. She was probably right. If one of you was her - my apologies. :D

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Reminds me of many years ago, when I was a Rough Collie person and I encountered a Border Collie at Pt. Isabel, the local dog park, in a crouch and staring intently at my big, hirsute male. "Look!" I cried, "Herding behavior!"

"It is NOT!" denied the owner, hotly.

Then we had this kindergarten argument -

"Is too!"

"Is NOT!"

"Is TOO!"

"IS NOT!"

 

Sort of embarrassing to realize... doggone it. She was probably right. If one of you was her - my apologies. :D

 

:rolleyes:

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This is unrelated, but related.

 

I was watching my mutt about a week or so ago. We were running the coffee grinder and for some reason all of my dogs start to play when the coffee grinder runs. We enjoy this burst of excitement and we both participate in it and encourage it.

 

The mutt's favorite game during this time is to grab ahold of a toy and shake the heck out of it. I often encourage him by laughing and saying, "kill it!" He shakes it and rowwwwls until the coffee is ground and life goes back to normal. (For the record, encouraging this in no way spurs him on any inappropriate behavior.)

 

This particular dog is actually an excellent killer (of appropriate things, like groundhogs). In his younger years I watched him kill groundhogs and it was amazing. He knew exactly how to get groundhog into a position where it could not escape and then he would go in with one motion, grab it by the neck, give one shake, and the thing was history.

 

So, when Sammie is shaking the squeaky while the coffee grinder runs, is he really "killing" the toy? Of course not. It's play. He knows the difference. He knows he is shaking an inanimate object. He knows he is playing a game.

 

And yet, there is a correlation between the two scenarios. Somewhere in the makeup of his mind, he is playing at something that he is 100% serious about in real life.

 

When I watch my Border Collies play, I see a lot of the same kinds of things. Except they aren't generally playing at killing. They play at bringing moving objects under control and getting those things to me. When Speedy and Dean are at play, they are running out around one another and coming to a stop when the motion ceases. They are playing at stalking and staring. They are playing at using their eyes to control things. No, they aren't "herding" any more than Sammie is "killing". But there is a relationship between the way that they play and the things that are instinctive to them as dogs. And, more particularly, between the things that are instinctive to them as Border Collies.

 

There is something distinct about a way that a Border Collie's instincts are made manifest in situations where car chasing is an issue, or nipping at children, or whatever. That doesn't mean that these aren't issues with many types of dogs, but there is a distinction in what it looks like to a lot of people. There is often a difference in the intensity that the Border Collie experiences in those situations. There is often a difference in the way a Border Collie uses his eyes and moves in those situations. There is often a difference in the Border Collie's ability to come back to a normal state of mind afterward.

 

I know I'm rambling, but I think that distinction is at the root of the matter of what the average person refers to as a Border Collie "herding" when chasing cars, nipping children, etc. A lab or a beagle doing the same things simply appears very different.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Another friend who trains Malinois for police work (or something of the sort) instructed me to use a shock collar. I purchased a decent shock collar to start training him on recall, which backfired because shock collars on soft Border Collies are a really stupid idea. Coupled with the fact that I have an invisible fence and shocking him within the fence would be confusing for him, I gave up on the shock collar idea

 

I'd suggest that you revisit the Ecollar only not as you probably used it. Used with my methods it's an excellent ideal tool for use on soft dogs. Here's how I teach and reinforce the recall. CLICK HERE

 

CLICK HERE for a protocol that stops most dogs from chasing cats and other prey objects and animals, including cars. I originally developed it to stop police dogs from chasing cats during yard−to−yard searches in urban areas. It's also useful for stopping dog−to−dog aggression.

 

I hope I'm forgiven for posting the links rather than the protocols themselves. I was chastised in a previous thread for doing this. The one for the recall is over 5,500 words and the one for crittering is over 3,000 words. There's no sense in rewriting the patent application for the wheel!? lol

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An e-collar for dog-dog aggression?

 

I'm cringing all over the place here. Maybe I'll feel better if I link to the antidote.

 

Always a treat when people jump to conclusions rather than actually read my protocol for stopping dog−to−dog aggression.

 

Your link is about some issues that arise when punishment is used improperly. But the problem is that it has nothing to do with how I use the Ecollar to treat this issue so it's irrelevant to this discussion. Instead of merely punishing the aggression as you've assumed, and as is likely to make the problem worse, I teach an incompatible behavior that makes the aggression impossible. Fact is, it's impossible to train a dog without using punishment so this article, and others like it is just so much nonsense. As always, I'm using the word "punishment" in the Operant Conditioning sense of the word, as should be done by dog trainers.

 

for some video of two dogs playing. One of them used to be aggressive towards the other. The owner of the dogs used my protocol to stop the aggression. She then shot this video and sent it to me. Please tell us which one of the dogs used to be aggressive. BTW this video is several years old and the aggression has not resurfaced.
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Those e-collars are apparently magical. You can fix anything with his methods and an e-collar...regardless of dog or situation.

 

Not really. An Ecollar is just a tool, as any other. It's an inanimate object, like any other that just sits on a shelf until it's picked up and used. How it's used, like any other tool, determines its effectiveness. I've stolen, adapted and adopted methods from dozens of other trainers and written up articles that I've provided, free of charge, so that virtually anyone who can read and follow simple instructions can train their dog to their complete.

 

You can't "fix anything with my methods and an Ecollar" but you can fix quite a bit. That includes chasing unwanted game or cars and bikes, etc., and teaching and reinforcing basic OB.

 

BTW I've personally used the crittering protocol on well over 200 dogs for chasing and not had it fail. Likewise I've personally done it with about 100 dogsfor aggression and not had a failure except with one owner who did not do his homework.

 

For any doubters here's another link that requires a click to read! LOL It's to a page of unsolicited testimonials from people, some of whom have found my site and used the articles to train their dogs. Some have been to my seminars and actually seen the work, rather than, as here, guessing about how it's done. CLICK HERE

 

BTW I'm doing a seminar this week at SAR CITY, the largest training for SAR folks that's done in California. I'll be teaching a class on the Ecollar on Saturday. It's at Barstow Community College in Barstow, CA and if anyone wants to see this stuff, instead of sitting back and guessing about it, I invite you to come out and attend the class as my guest. This will be the FOURTH year that I've taught the class at this SAR Convention. Contact me via PM's. Please do so quickly as I’m leaving this evening and may not have access to email. This will be my 46th seminar.

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Lou, what breed of dog makes up the majority of your clientele?

 

Since most of my work is with law enforcement and SAR it's mostly with breeds of dogs that you'll find there. That's going to be GSD's and Mals for the LE side and mostly retriever types for the SAR side.

 

But other breeds that I've worked with include, (in mostly alphabetical order) Afghans, Airedales, Alaskan Malamutes, Akitas, American Mastiffs, American Staffs, Aussie Cattle Dogs, Beagles, Belgian Mals, Belgian Sheps, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Black and Tan Coonhounds, Bloodhounds, Boston Terriers, BC's, Bouviers, Boxers, Bull Mastiffs, Collies, Chinese Cresteds, Chows, Dals, Cocker Spaniels, GSD's, GSP's, GWP's, Great Danes, Great Pyrs, Greyhounds (including Whippets and IG's), Huskies, Irish Wolfhounds, JRT's, Keeshounds, Labs, Newfies, Old English Bulldogs, a Pomeranian, Poodles, PWD's, Rhodesians, Salukis, Schnauzers, Sheepdogs, Vizslas and Weims. I'm sure that there are more but I've just forgotten.

 

I accept whatever breed or problems people bring to my seminars. Unlike some trainers, I don't prescreen dogs that I'll work with.

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Thanks, Lou. That's about what I figured.

 

I believe I saw something earlier in the post where you said you're not here to advertise your business. That's great. Do you own Border Collies? You've been a member of this board for several years. What is your particular interest with this forum?

 

Also ... do you feel that slamming another trainer's methods on your website has had a positive or negative effect on how people view your professionalism?

 

It has come to my attention that someone who runs a popular forum is in the habit of recommending brute force with an Ecollar as a means to stop dog-to-dog aggression. Contrary to every Ecollar manufacturer's recommendations, he says that when your dog shows aggression towards another dog, you should press the button with the Ecollar set on a "high level of stim" and that you should hold it down "until your dog looks away from the other dog."

 

Just about every Ecollar trainer in the world uses the word "stim" to mean the electrical stimulation that's applied to the dog when the button is pressed. But this trainer uses the word "stem." He's been asked why he does this and has never provided any kind of logical response. He's (in)famous for his misspellings and I think that this is just another example of it.

 

This same trainer brags that he once stopped a dog from "fence fighting" (where dogs, on opposite sides of a fence, run back and forth barking at each other) by hitting him THREE TIMES in the head with a shovel. Yes, that's right, a shovel.

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I believe I saw something earlier in the post where you said you're not here to advertise your business. That's great.

 

I don't realy have "a business." I'm a retired police officer. I used to be a police K−9 handler and then was the in−house trainer for my department. Now most of my work is on a volunteer basis for LE and SAR groups. Usually I work for food and expenses. (I should get a cardboard sign! Lol) Occasionally when someone wants one-on-one training or wants something that's going to require extended time, I'll accommodate them. I charge for that. But usually I just send them to the site with the assurance that they can get the work done without my assistance.

 

Do you own Border Collies?

 

No I don't.

 

You've been a member of this board for several years. What is your particular interest with this forum?

 

I think (not 100% positive on this) that I initially came here because someone I know said that there was an Ecollar discussion going on. Because I'm probably one of the biggest advocates of the tool around, and I have too much time on my hands, I have many people sending me this kind of information. I'd guess that because I didn't write any posts at that time (that I can find) that I thought that it was being handled well and saw no need. I was also very busy on some other lists/forums at that time and didn't have the time to contribute that I have now.

 

My interest is in seeing and hearing of people who are happy with their dogs. I want people to enjoy their pets and want the dogs to be happy in their homes. I really don't care how people get there (abuse excepted of course). I don't care what tool or method they use, but sometimes a given method does not work. Until recently the Ecollar has been "the tool of last resort." I think that with modern versions of the tool and the right methods this is changing and have seen much evidence of it.

 

I've written and made available at no cost, articles that make it possible for anyone who can read and follow instructions to avoid taking their dog to a rescue, a shelter or having it put down because they can't get it to behave or follow commands. The protocols are easy to follow and get good results with. They've saved the lives of many dogs when people were at the end of their rope. They've made it possible for many SAR and LE handlers to work with the natural drives of their dogs and still get compliance with commands when other methods/tools have not given the desired results.

 

Also ... do you feel that slamming another trainer's methods on your website has had a positive or negative effect on how people view your professionalism?

 

Perhaps. But since I don't name the trainer, I only criticize his method, I think that I've still maintained a high level of professionalism. I don't name names unless someone else has done that with me first. I'll admit that I'm human and sometimes respond to unprofessionalism in kind.

 

In any case, that trainer uses the Ecollar in a method that I and virtually every Ecollar manufacturer on the planet specifically recommend against. It's almost guaranteed to make the aggression worse and AT THE SAME TIME mask the warning displays that dogs give off when they are about to go into attack mode. This can create a highly dangerous situation where not only is the aggression still present, but now the warning displays (the barking, lunging, hackling, showing teeth, growling, etc.) have been trained away and so the owner will have no idea that aggression is about to occur. Use of the Ecollar like this is one reason that the tool has gotten a bad name!

 

Here are some comments that people who have used my protocol on this have written. Emphasis in those posts is mine. A UK Pet Owner wrote this to an Ecollar training list.

 

My dog ... lunges and barks at other dogs when he is on his lead. This, amongst other things, was a major reason for him being continually returned to rescue before he came to me. Today was day one of the anti crittering protocol using a stooge dog.

 

I have spent the time since getting the collar teaching him how to respond and conditioning the heel and come responses etc. He was doing these perfectly without major distractions. Today, for the first time ever, I managed to have him calmly sitting next to another dog while I gave them both treats. I followed Lou's anti crittering protocol to the letter and we had a big time success. I am so happy. It took about half an hour to get him to the other dog calmly, but we did it. He sniffed at the other dog and was sniffed back very politely.

 

About ten days later this same owner sent this post to the list

 

Yesterday I was taking my dog out scootering and it finally happened, we saw another dog on the other side of the road.

 

My immediate reaction was my heart sinking. This situation has always resulted in the scooter being dragged across the road, me flat on my face and my dog going nuts trying to get to the other dog. We have been working the anti crittering protocol to resolve the issues but this was the first cold test where I was not in control of the environment.

 

We got closer up behind the other dog and I will admit I was really worried about what was going to happen and fully expecting him to behave as he normally would have done. Instead, he glanced at the other dog to check it out (literally a micro second glance) and carried on past without breaking stride. No barking, no lunging, no twirling NOTHING!!!!!

 

I am sooooo happy!!!

 

Yay!

 

Kamal wrote,

Just wanted to give you an update on Kaiser. I've been working on his recall command and enforcing it with the e-collar. He has been responding really well and obeying the commands without delay. He is doing so well that I've taken him to dog beach in Huntington Beach and he has been responding well even with dogs around. He is doing so much better that we've been able to go up to dogs and greet them without all the aggression. It really is an amazing change in his reaction to dogs. Thanks for the great advice.

 

The proof is not in the theorizing that people do (especially those who for reasons of their own won't read my articles) but in those who have read the articles and then done the work.

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Since most of my work is with law enforcement and SAR it's mostly with breeds of dogs that you'll find there. That's going to be GSD's and Mals for the LE side and mostly retriever types for the SAR side.

 

 

 

FWIW, I would much rather train a SAR dog without the use of an ecollar. Positive reinforcement works. I want a dog that I can motivate, not a dog that is looking to avoid something.

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FWIW, I would much rather train a SAR dog without the use of an ecollar.

 

Wouldn't it be great if all dogs were easy to train?

 

Positive reinforcement works.

 

A couple of facts. It's impossible to train a dog with ONLY +R. Some punishment is necessary an d unavoidable.

 

Second, +R works for some things with some dogs. It does not work with every dog for everything. This is especially true for the highly driven dogs we should be using in SAR. Most of my work is with dogs that these (and other) methods have failed with.

 

I want a dog that I can motivate, not a dog that is looking to avoid something.

 

A couple of more facts. A dog that's working for a treat, toy or praise (or any of the rest of +R is looking TO AVOID the discomfort that not having those things brings. He is "looking to avoid something" too! Some, and you seem to be in that group, just don't like to think about that part of the equation. That hardly means that it's not there. Training works best when the trainer understands that all work is balanced, that is, a mix of reinforcement and punishment.

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What does all this have to do with Border Collies and chasing? How about starting another thread to discuss the merits and drawbacks of E-collars.

 

The thread is about BC's and chasing. I posted a link to a protocol that stops the chasing. Then the personal attacks started. I'm responding to them. I'm hoping to get back to a discussion about training someone in the near future.

 

You'll find that some people want to have this type of discussion anytime an Ecollar is mentioned as a potential solution to a problem. It's unfortunate that they can't keep to the topic, but it's been my experience that some simply refuse to do that.

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Occasionally when someone wants one-on-one training or wants something that's going to require extended time, I'll accommodate them. I charge for that.
(emphasis added)

 

That's a business, isn't it?

 

I'm not sure the point of the rest of your post, other than to further promote your methods. I've read through quite a few of your "articles." When Border Collie owners on this group (or FB or whatever) talk about some of trainers in their area and the seemingly extreme methods they purportedly use, I always roll my eyes and think to myself, "Oh they're exaggerating. No one really does that stuff." But I can see now that, in fact, there are trainers who actually do those things.

 

I just dated a guy has a GSD and used to train (edit: service) police dogs. He has a young dog now that he's having a hard time training with methods very similar to the ones you describe on your website. He was constantly running for the zapper every time the dog did something. He was shocked (no pun intended) when I was able to recall the dog without zapping him, got him to stop jumping on me by turning my back to him, or got him to stop rushing out of the crate without smacking him in the head or zapping him.

 

With the Border Collies you say you've trained, what were the training issues you addressed? Do you feel that the Border Collie is any more sensitive to the Ecollar method than any of the other dogs you train?

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That's a business, isn't it?

 

You can call it whatever makes you happy. I'm retired from nearly 30 years in LE. I train dogs only when I feel like it. I used to run a part time business training dogs but now most of my work is as a volunteer. If I was a retired auto mechanic who now fixed his friends cars for free, would you call that a business? I would not. If he charged only for a complete rebuild for a stranger (not one of his friends) on an engine, would you call that a business? I still would not. But as I said, call it whatever you like. Given that I doubt that I'm near enough to any list members I doubt that I'll be doing anything more than giving advice here and on the phone. I must be one of the worst businessmen on the planet. Ecollars cost me far more than I make from them. I'm not even counting the time I spend helping people on the phone. Maybe I'm advertising so that I can lose even more money.

 

I'm not sure the point of the rest of your post, other than to further promote your methods.

 

I'm promoting the method and the tool. I'm not sure what "rest of [my] post" you're referring to but if you'll be more specific I'll be happy to fill you in. Generally I was responding to questions you asked and statements you made.

 

I've read through quite a few of your "articles." When Border Collie owners on this group (or FB or whatever) talk about some of trainers in their area and the seemingly extreme methods they purportedly use, I always roll my eyes and think to myself, "Oh they're exaggerating. No one really does that stuff." But I can see now that, in fact, there are trainers who actually do those things.

 

This vagueness and condemnation−by−association is a clever debate technique. Please be more specific in these accusations and I'll be happy to show you where you're wrong. There's nothing extreme in my methods. Just solid learning theory applied.

 

I just dated a guy has a GSD and used to train service dogs. He has a young dog now that he's having a hard time training with methods very similar to the ones you describe on your website. He was constantly running for the zapper every time the dog did something. [Emphasis Added]

 

AGAIN you show us that you've either not really read my articles or if you did, you failed to understand the quite simple concepts described and/or the methods discussed. But it's not at all unusual for someone who opposes Ecollars to read all sorts of things into the articles that aren't there. As Harry Nilsson wrote, "You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear." Oddly when people with open minds read the website they don't make these sort of comments. Hmmm.

 

What you describe, "running for the zapper every time ..." is NOT something that's done with my methods. The Ecollar is used for basic training of a given movement and then it's rarely needed after that. Just as with any other properly applied tool. As with any other tool, refreshers are occasionally needed.

 

BTW has anyone else noticed that folks opposing me in this discussion ONLY mention Ecollars as they're used improperly? Yet, at the same time they ONLY discuss their methods when they're applied properly and the results are as desired. I find that juxtaposition fascinating!

 

He was shocked (no pun intended) when I was able to recall the dog without zapping him

 

I'd not be shocked (pun intended) by this at all. Is this a reflection on who you date? LOL. (Sorry, couldn’t resist). MANY dogs respond to other methods quite well. But the fact is that some don't. When this occurs, the Ecollar is a potential alternative.

 

got him [Lou note: the dog not the BF] to stop jumping on me by turning my back to him

 

This works on many dogs. On some it's a failure of massive proportions. I ran into a family at my vet's office one day. Every member, husband wife and (I think) two kids) had severe scratches running down their legs starting just above their knees and running down to their ankles. On one child they were so severe that she had to be put on IV antibiotics! A trainer had given them the advice that you just described, to "turn [their] back on [the dog]" and they'd followed it for a couple of weeks. It didn't stop the behavior and resulted in a life threatening situation and heavy scarring to the legs of one of them.

 

or got him to stop rushing out of the crate without smacking him in the head or zapping him.

 

Oddly I don't use the Ecollar OR "smacking" for this. Due to the fact that you mention that you "read through quite a few of [my] articles" and then placed this comment in the same post, someone may think that's where you got it. It's NOT from my site! There's nothing that even resembles it there.

 

With the Border Collies you say you've trained, what were the training issues you addressed?

 

OB for the most part, failing to recall when distractions were present is the most common complaint. With some, it was crittering.

 

Do you feel that the Border Collie is any more sensitive to the Ecollar method than any of the other dogs you train?

 

Not as a breed. Sensitivity to "the method" (I'm only talking about MY method BTW) shows up as the dog feeling the stim at lower levels than other dogs. There's no way to predict at what stim level a dog will first perceive the stim. That's where all the basic work is done, where the dog first feels it. That's not a function of breed, gender, age, hardness, softness, drive level, handler sensitivity or anything else.

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Is this a reflection on who you date? LOL. (Sorry, couldnt resist).

 

I've attempted to stick to discussing the method of training. I see we're moving out of that realm. Between having my posts chopped up, and having personal insults needlessly flung at me, I am not really interested in participating in this very unproductive conversation. And by the way, the last time I said, "Sorry, couldn't resist," the moderator told me, "Yes, you could have. You chose not to." So I'll Echo that sentiment here. (EDIT: Funny ... I capitalized "Echo" ... ha!~)

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I've attempted to stick to discussing the method of training.

 

Really? What was the point of the question about my "professionalism" Somehow I don't think that was "discussing the method of training." I also don't think your statement, "That's a business, isn't it?" was "discussing the method of training" either. Your insinuation that my site contains information to zap a dog or "smack him" to stop him from charging out of a crate also was not of this genre.

 

I see we're moving out of that realm. Between having my posts chopped up

 

Many people don't like my style of responding to posts by multiquoting. I like it, so I'll continue.

 

and having personal insults needlessly flung at me

 

Other than the lighthearted comment about the guy you dated, there's nothing of a personal insult nature that's been "flung at you." Since you disagree please show us those comments.

 

I am not really interested in participating in this very unproductive conversation.

 

Why do some people feel a need to tell everyone that they're not going to participate in a discussion anymore? It seems to me to be a case of "last word syndrome" (which I definitely suffer from, although I never do this). It seems to me that if you're going to leave you don't need to announce it. Just go. But perhaps that's just me.

 

And by the way, the last time I said, "Sorry, couldn't resist," the moderator told me, "Yes, you could have. You chose not to." So I'll Echo that sentiment here.

 

You're right. I could have resisted. It was an attempt to lighten up what has become a rather unpleasant discussion, with most of that coming from your side or the aisle. I apologize, I meant no offense and no disrespect. It was supposed to be taken as a joke. I missed the mark.

 

But AGAIN we don't seem to have a discussion about training on the horizon!

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Wouldn't it be great if all dogs were easy to train?

 

 

Yes, and any dog suited for SAR work is highly motivated and it should be straight forward to train them using mostly positve methods. I was talking about SAR work and you generalized it.

 

Second, +R works for some things with some dogs. It does not work with every dog for everything. This is especially true for the highly driven dogs we should be using in SAR. Most of my work is with dogs that these (and other) methods have failed with.

 

Huh? :huh: Highly driven dogs cannot be trained using motivation and reinforcement? The type of dog SAR takes needs to be motivated to hunt for their reward. They want it, you manipulate/control it and you've got something more powerful than an ecollar. And you get the added benefit of the dog not trying to avoid something.

 

A couple of more facts. A dog that's working for a treat, toy or praise (or any of the rest of +R is looking TO AVOID the discomfort that not having those things brings. He is "looking to avoid something" too! Some, and you seem to be in that group, just don't like to think about that part of the equation.

 

The difference is with ecollar training, the dog is trying to avoid the stim. So he avoids doing what brings the stim. Using a reward, he's trying to figure out how to get it, and is ready and willing to try new things that may bring the reward.

 

I understand and use correction with my dogs, but I'd rather find or build that key that turns them to use when I'm teaching new behaviors.

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I understand and use correction with my dogs, but I'd rather find or build that key that turns them to use when I'm teaching new behaviors.

 

+1.

 

(with the modifier that I work hard to seldom use a correction)

 

All training methods work when they are correctly used with good timing, even punitive ones.

 

I just find I much prefer the results I get not using corrections to train new behaviors.

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I just find I much prefer the results I get not using corrections to train new behaviors.

 

One thing that I have really come to realize is that people who use corrections (to any degree) like the results that they get through corrections. Conversely, those who use reinforcement tend to prefer the results that they get through reinforcement. And, those who use a mix like the results that they get through that mix.

 

When I see those results with my own eyes, I don't always understand why the person likes those results, just as there are those who don't always understand why reinforcement trainers like the results that they get, but I can get my brain around the fact that they like those results. That even though I often simply don't see what they see. And they often don't see what I see. It might seem like it should be more objective than that, but in practice I have observed that it is usually not.

 

I would bet money that if Lou Castle watched my clicker trained dog recall instantly off of a very high level distraction, sit immediately on cue, down immediately on cue, leave something that he wants alone immediately when cued to do so, watch cars go by without even thinking about chasing, etc., he would see something that he didn't like about it even if everything technically met his criteria for success.

 

And, if I were watching the dogs trained with his method, I wouldn't be the least surprised if there were something about the way that the dogs responded that I wouldn't like.

 

I find it to be very interesting.

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Yes, and any dog suited for SAR work is highly motivated and it should be straight forward to train them using mostly positve methods. I was talking about SAR work and you generalized it.

 

I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with you that "any dog suited for SAR ... should be straight forward to train them using mostly positive methods." I've been involved in SAR for 8-10 years as a trainer and know the facts on this. While most of those dogs can be trained with "mostly positive methods" there are MANY that cannot be completely trained with those methods, many that cannot be trained with them at all, and many that have issues with such things as crittering that do not respond to those methods for that issue.

 

Earlier I wrote,

Second, +R works for some things with some dogs. It does not work with every dog for everything. This is especially true for the highly driven dogs we should be using in SAR. Most of my work is with dogs that these (and other) methods have failed with. [Emphasis Added]

 

Huh? :huh: Highly driven dogs cannot be trained using motivation and reinforcement?

 

I'll ask you to please reread my statement. Please take a look at the part of the statement that I've emphasize for you. Please don't try to put words into my mouth. NOWHERE does it say that "highly driven dogs cannot be trained using motivation and reinforcement."

 

The type of dog SAR takes needs to be motivated to hunt for their reward.

 

I agree and that often leads to problems. One is that if they can't find their reward they're liable to try and substitute something for it. This can lead to crittering, the chasing that is the topic of this thread. Many dogs can't be stopped from crittering with "motivation and reinforcement."

 

Earlier I wrote,

A couple of more facts. A dog that's working for a treat, toy or praise (or any of the rest of +R is looking TO AVOID the discomfort that not having those things brings. He is "looking to avoid something" too! Some, and you seem to be in that group, just don't like to think about that part of the equation.

 

The difference is with ecollar training, the dog is trying to avoid the stim.

 

There is no difference Maralynn. With treat training he wants to avoid the discomfort of NOT having the treat.

 

So he avoids doing what brings the stim.

 

So he avoid doing what keeps him from getting the treat.

 

Using a reward, he's trying to figure out how to get it, and is ready and willing to try new things that may bring the reward.

 

Using a reward, he's trying to avoid the discomfort of NOT having the treat and is willing to try new things that may avoid that discomfort.

 

I understand and use correction with my dogs, but I'd rather find or build that key that turns them to use when I'm teaching new behaviors.

 

I don't have to look for a key. I already have it.

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