How do I switch off the obsession?

[CptJack]

First of all, it sounds like Elwood is in pretty good shape, so don't take this as any kind of backhanded dig -

 

But Rushdoggie:

I was SO AMAZED by some of the stuff that... stopped when Molly's meds got onboard. Things I'd just attributed to her being a young high energy dog or a BC. The obsessive counter surfing/trash stealing, the weird behavioral chains she'd get stuck in with increasing levels of frustration and franticness when we were training, waking up at night, just - so much stuff fell away that I never, ever, connected to being anxiety issues. I mean, yeah, she'll still kind of flip her wig at a rude dog charging up to her but. At this stage? That's all that's left.

[rushdoggie]

First of all, it sounds like Elwood is in pretty good shape, so don't take this as any kind of backhanded dig -

 

But Rushdoggie:

 

I was SO AMAZED by some of the stuff that... stopped when Molly's meds got onboard. Things I'd just attributed to her being a young high energy dog or a BC. The obsessive counter surfing/trash stealing, the weird behavioral chains she'd get stuck in with increasing levels of frustration and franticness when we were training, waking up at night, just - so much stuff fell away that I never, ever, connected to being anxiety issues. I mean, yeah, she'll still kind of flip her wig at a rude dog charging up to her but. At this stage? That's all that's left.

 

yep

[rushdoggie]

Elwood is a pretty chilled out dog, he mostly sleeps through the day. When he offers either one of us some bark to throw we simply ignore it, if I were to react by saying "no" it wouldn't be "positive training" which I'm sticking to.

 

Understood. As a 99% "positive" trainer I feel compelled to mention that an occasional consequence (delivered without anger or pain) will not be an issue. I do in fact say no to my dogs and they understand it has a meaning and don't take it personally.

 

Its communication, assuming its learned that way.

 

I train "positive" because I prefer to communicate with my dogs, and mold their behavior vs shutting it down. I like active, thinking, trying dogs. I find that I get the attitude and behaviors I want very well. Telling a dog "no" is not such a bad thing in teh right context. YMMV of course.

 

Ignoring is communication too, and when it works thats good. Sometimes a wound up dog needs more than being ignored or they get more wound up. With Jasper, sometimes I think that he believes we are really stupid, he does everything in his power to say "this is what I want" and by ignoring him he just tries harder and louder and doesn't really give up. Its hilarious when its not annoying. He is the most expressive and communicative dog ever. But sometimes he needs to know that I understand what he wants, and the answer is no.

 

The first time we made tri tip on the grill when he was a puppy, he spent 2 full hours offering "Timmy's in the well" behaviors to take me to the kitchen counter to show me the meat on the counter. It was hilarious. We did NOT give him any. We decided that would be a terrible precedent to set. He continued the behavior the next 2 times we made it until I was annoyed and instituted the "enough" consequence. Now he accepts that sometimes its just not going to happen.

 

"My humans are SO mean..."

 

[D'Elle]

"My humans are SO mean..."

Yeah. So mean that there are steps for him to get up on the couch.

[rushdoggie]

Yeah. So mean that there are steps for him to get up on the couch.

 

Well, those are for his 13 year old sister.

 

But yeah, his life is hard.

[chrisandgabe]

I took me far longer to train my husband to not absentmindedly throw stuff than it did for my dogs to learn that when I say no that its not going to happen.

Do you have any husband training tips?

 

Gabe is working on training H to throw the ball in the house always. I prefer to hide the ball behind me and tell Gabe to find something else to do. This face is tough competition though.

 

[Elwood]

Maybe I could get my husband to teach Elwood to put the dirty clothes in the hamper, then he in turn may learn that they don't actually live on the floor beside the hamper.

[Elwood]

Anyone know how to o upload pics from an IPad 2?

[Cass C]

I just want to add a couple things I haven't seen mentioned, forgive me if it has. I am in the minority and play fetch with my dogs regularly. In the house they have access to all but their agility toys. That includes balls, and Lily loves to try and get us to play by dropping them or whatever else she finds in our lap. The difference is she knows 'enough' means there is a 0% chance of getting us to play more the game is over. That goes for everyone in the house, if even one person gives in once that is a huge set back. The other thing I did was I never ever play if the dog starts it. When presented with an object I didn't ask for I pretend nothing happened and completely ignore her. At first she would just try again and again hoping something would happen, but she has learned giving me toys gets her nowhere. However if I start the game the dog must put the fetch toy in my hand and before I throw it they have to do a trick or two.

[Cass C]

Oops double post stupid phone...

[GentleLake]

The other thing I did was I never ever play if the dog starts it. When presented with an object I didn't ask for I pretend nothing happened and completely ignore her. At first she would just try again and again hoping something would happen, but she has learned giving me toys gets her nowhere.

 

For anyone wanting to try this method of ignoring behavior you don't want (it's a tried and true method, by the way ) be prepared for what's called an "extinction burst" when the unwanted behavior will actually increase rather than decrease. The dog will try really, really hard to get what he wants by repeating the behavior that got him what he wanted but is no longer working.

 

Think of it from the dog's (or human's in the same type of situation) POV: Elwood wants to play fetch, in fact he's obsessed with playing fetch and somewhere down the line he figured out that if he brought the ball to you and dropped it in your lap you'd pick it up and toss it because at this point it was still fun for you. As the behavior escalated, you might have responded to his request to play sometimes but not every time; but you may have tossed the ball aside just have to get it out of your lap, but you did something with it that gave Elwood an opportunity to interact with the ball, which was a reward and so reinforced the behavior.

 

As you became more annoyed with the obsession you may not have rewarded him so much for this; you may have decided to put the ball away when you didn't want to engage with Elwood and the ball. But sometimes you were in the mood to play and gave in to him, or were distracted and inadvertently rewarded by just dropping the ball from your lap. The thing is, intermittent and unpredictable rewards are actually a much more powerful reinforcement than constant, predictable rewards. (Think of compulsive gamblers driven not by the guarantee of winning every time, but who are hooked by the mere possibility that they might hit the jackpot on this one bet, so they constantly keep placing bets one more time.)

 

So, now that you've got this behavior firmly established, you figure you're going to change the game for Elwood in an attempt to extinguish it by totally ignoring him every time he does it. No reward, no more bugging you with the ball. Sounds simple and it should work, right?

 

From Elwood's POV though, putting the ball in your lap has worked in the past. Maybe not every time, but some times. Maybe not as often lately, but still . . . sometimes it does!

 

But now, you're (deliberately) not responding at all, ever. Well, it's just taking longer, so Elwood needs to just keep trying harder. And more often. And with greater determination . . . because in the past, sometimes it worked!!

 

That's the extinction burst. Before Elwood finally gives up and finally understands that this just isn't going to work anymore and gives up on the behavior (IOW the behavior becomes extinct) he will try much harder for a while to make positively, absolutely sure it's not just a dry spell he can break with his determination and repetition.

 

One point of this is to warn you that for this to work you have to be completely and utterly dedicated to ignoring the unwanted behavior and totally committed to maintaining awareness and not distractedly giving in. One slip can sabotage the whole process so that you have to start over from the beginning.

 

The good news is that it does work as long as the behavior you want to eliminate isn't self-rewarding (i.e. something that's rewarding to the dog just by the act of doing it independent on any interaction with anyone else).

 

Which leads to the other point, which is to warn you not to give up when it seems at first like it's not working!

 

BTW, I'm doing this right now with my almost 9 month old pup to stop him jumping halfway up the door when he wants to go out. Every single time he jumps up, even a little bit (yes, every. single. time!) I turn around and walk away. At first it was just when he launched himself up at the door, but now if his front feet come off the floor even a little bit I do a u-turn and walk away. When he started his extinction burst he was hitting the door a good 3/4 of the way up. Now I'm only having to do a u-ey 2 or 3 times before he sits nicely as I approach instead of jumping (he'd sit before, but only after he's jumped up a few times first). A few minutes ago he went to the door and scratched to go out (which is OK with me) instead of jumping. We're getting there.

[urge to herd]

^^^ This, and I need to re-read this again. Maybe a few more times, really.

 

Great explanation, GL!

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[D'Elle]

Yes, very good and thorough explanation, GL.

It reminded me of the fact that, in training for something like Freestyle, intermittent rewarding actually solidifies the behavior more thoroughly than for the dog to get a reward every time he or she does it right. One would think that getting the same reward every time would be the most fun for the dog and the best way to get the behavior every time you cue for it. But interestingly enough, once the behavior is thoroughly learned (and this is an important part, because until the behavior is solidly learned they need reinforcement every time), the reinforcement is actually more effective if they do not get it every time they do it. It makes it more exciting for the dog, I think. The dog is maybe thinking along the lines of "will I get a treat this time?". I don't know, of course, what the dog is thinking. I just know that this works really well to keep up the enthusiasm in most dogs.

 

So....it stands to reason that if you give in (or a guest unwittingly gives in) to the pestering even one time, it will cause a setback that will take a long time to overcome. I have always made a point of letting people who come to my house know what the rules are with the dog who is in training before they come into contact with the dog. I have been accused of being a training Nazi, but I really don't care what other people think. They don't live with my dog, and I do.

 

Another way that intermittent reinforcement makes sense to strengthen a behavior is to think of something like beachcombing. If you found a nice shell every single time you went to look, it wouldn't really be all that much fun. It's the anticipation, not knowing whether or not you'll get the reward this time, that makes it fun.

[GentleLake]

Another way that intermittent reinforcement makes sense to strengthen a behavior is to think of something like beachcombing. If you found a nice shell every single time you went to look, it wouldn't really be all that much fun. It's the anticipation, not knowing whether or not you'll get the reward this time, that makes it fun.

 

Says the desert dweller!

 

But, yeah, understanding intermittent and random reinforcement makes so much more sense when you see it through the lens of, say, gambling or treasure hunting of some sort. Somehow the randomness plays a big part in this as well. The anticipation of the reward is much more powerful than the actual reward is.

 

And it really helps people who are resistant to treat training to understand (and accept) that once the behavior's reliably learned you don't have to give a treat each and every time to keep it solid, that in fact the behavior will be much more reliable if you don't keep treating every time the cue is carried out.

 

It means you don't have to have "cookies" on you all the time forever (another objection I often hear to what some people disparagingly call "cookie training"), but reinforcing once in a while every so often later on is enough to keep the dog behaving like you want her to.

[Cass C]

 

Says the desert dweller!

 

But, yeah, understanding intermittent and random reinforcement makes so much more sense when you see it through the lens of, say, gambling or treasure hunting of some sort. Somehow the randomness plays a big part in this as well. The anticipation of the reward is much more powerful than the actual reward is.

 

And it really helps people who are resistant to treat training to understand (and accept) that once the behavior's reliably learned you don't have to give a treat each and every time to keep it solid, that in fact the behavior will be much more reliable if you don't keep treating every time the cue is carried out.

 

It means you don't have to have "cookies" on you all the time forever (another objection I often hear to what some people disparagingly call "cookie training"), but reinforcing once in a while every so often later on is enough to keep the dog behaving like you want her to.

You are both right thanks for expanding on this. As for the guest thing I find it easier to hide any toy that might be thrown by someone in another room than to try and micromanage guests, but to each their own. However if your dog will play with anything just make sure your guests know the rules or it will be constant setbacks. Also worth noting is Lily will still try to get anyone new to play the game once, but when they ignore her she leaves them alone. I'm sure that it will only be a matter of trying new people enough to realize everyone is done with that game.

[Elwood]

Thank you ladies,

 

We have had a few setbacks due to visitors that ignore our requests to "ignore the bark that Elwood lays at their feet", so we do have to keep starting over....which we are doing.

 

As for intermittent reward training, we do follow Karen Priors advice here from "Don't shoot the Dog". I had this argument with our agility trainer, as I am the only clicker training dog owner there, the trainer keeps telling me to "always" reward at every jump etc. I said that we are using Karen Priors method and she was quite firm with her point of view. She would ignore me and go and reward him herself....very counterproductive, I thought.

 

This past week at agility I was able to use Karen's methods as that trainer was focused on other dogs, and Elwood gave me perfect performances every time.

As one win appears another issue arises. He is now obsessed with the catwalk ramp which is now another "ball/ bark" point of focus. He will try and get on the ramp even when it's another dogs turn. So I am being very firm with that and keeping him focused on what the course routine is instead , never allowing him to get on when it's not appropriate.

[Elwood]

As for the ball / frisbee obsession on the beach. I have been getting him to sit, down, stay, leave it or heel on both sides mixing it up all the time before he gets the frisbee etc. this has been helping with his reactive behaviours.

 

Someone suggested to not put him in "down" when other reactive dogs approach, yet doing this has totally changed his behaviours, he hasn't attacked any dogs for a few weeks now.....not that I would allow it.

 

After reading that article on rude dogs, I feel a lot more relaxed if they get in his face and he gives them a warning growl to back off. If they get a bite when "not backing off" I now think, well they have to learn some manners, instead of feeling guilty that my dog has bitten another dog.

 

He will still lunge at pit bull mixed breeds on the street when on leash, which I think is the trigger. So I keep working at food rewards whenever we see them coming. I calmly sit him and constantly feed him when those dogs pass by, and that is starting to improve with his reactions....when there is no reactions I jackpot the rewards for him doing the right thing without having to be told.

[GentleLake]

As for intermittent reward training, we do follow Karen Priors advice here from "Don't shoot the Dog". I had this argument with our agility trainer, as I am the only clicker training dog owner there, the trainer keeps telling me to "always" reward at every jump etc. I said that we are using Karen Priors method and she was quite firm with her point of view. She would ignore me and go and reward him herself....very counterproductive, I thought.

 

It's more than counterproductive. It's downright disrespectful! And IIWM I'd be telling her in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate her interfering with your chosen method and forbid her to ever give your dog a treat without your permission.

 

Good for you for not allowing the interest in the catwalk to morph into the kind of obsession that the ball throwing has.

 

In re: your next post, I'm SMH that you're still taking him to places where he's had and is still having bad experiences with other dogs.

 

Are you aware that every time he gets stressed by such an encounter that his cortisol levels rise? Or that they don't completely dissipate for up to 24 hours? Or that elevated cortisol levels can wreak havoc on your dog's health?

 

As for the Clothier article, I don't think her intent was to explain these interactions so that people can understand why their dogs are reacting as they do so that they can keep putting them in these situations and then think it's OK because the other dog was being rude.

 

I'm at a total loss to understand how someone who obviously cares very much about her dog would keep subjecting him to this. It's your job to protect your dog from these encounters as much as possible. He doesn't get to decide where you take him. Please choose more wisely than it seems you've been doing, for his sake.

[chrisandgabe]

Agreed with everything GenteLake said.

 

After reading that article on rude dogs, I feel a lot more relaxed if they get in his face and he gives them a warning growl to back off. If they get a bite when "not backing off" I now think, well they have to learn some manners, instead of feeling guilty that my dog has bitten another dog.

 

I cannot really wrap my brain around being okay with my dog biting another dog in a situation I knowingly put him in. If I bring the dog to someplace I have every reason to expect there will not be off-leash dogs in his face, like a leash walk through our neighborhood (leash laws and fences pretty much guarantee this, although this is not a perfect system), and a dog is loose and gets in his face, and he bites that dog, that's on the other dog and its owner for not being more careful. But if I bring my dog somewhere I know he's being set up for failure, like an off-leash park, beach, etc. and I have every reason to expect rude dogs will run up in his face and it'll stress him out, that's on me.

 

Yes, the other dogs are being rude, but you are bringing a dog that can't deal with it into that situation. Plus you don't know which of these dogs is going to fight back and one, the other, or both will get seriously injured. Or you or the other owner in trying to break this up.

 

It's great that he's making progress and not always reacting, but you have tons of work to do before he can safely be in these situations, if ever.

Work on his issues in situations that set him up for success, where he can see other dogs from safe distances and work under threshold. If he's getting to the point where he's biting other dogs, he's way over threshold, and that's not really fair to him. I'd also be very concerned about the long-term effects of all that stress on his health, as mentioned above.

[urge to herd]

Agree w/Chrisandgabe and GentleLake. You are repeatedly showing your dog that you DO NOT HAVE HIS BACK, and therefore he is on his own when dealing with rude dogs, rude people, and other situations.

 

This is a recipe for a dog fight, a brutal one. You could be injured, Elwood could be injured, other people/dogs could be injured. You could be sued.

 

And Elwood will likely escalate. A bite makes the rude dog go away - well, I'll go right to biting then, and not bother with a growl.

 

Please stop putting him in such dangerous situations. Get between him and another approaching dog before he even growls. Tell dog owners that you're training. Teach him to get behind you and sit. Carry a stick to 'sweep' between Elwood and the approaching dog. Figure out a work around.

 

You're doing some incredibly wonderful stuff in many other ways - it could all go to s**t really quickly, because you are showing him that he's on his own when dealing w/other scary, rude dogs.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[D'Elle]

I am in complete agreement with the above posts that have taken you to task for continuing to put your dog (and yourself) into situations where one or more dogs or people could get hurt, and your dog is getting stressed out. You misinterpreted that article if you think that doing this is a good idea. It's not.

[CptJack]

Yes, agreed on all fronts. You do not want the dog to feel the need to handle the situation. Yes, yes it means that he's not being a terrible dog for responding to rudeness but you are leaving him out there alone and increasing his insecurity about it. That means it's likely to escalate.

Also, it doesn't matter if the other dog is rude or not -you're going to be on the hook for vet bills for the bitten dog, risk him having a bite record or being seized if he does enough damage AND there is a very real risk of that other dog taking being bitten badly and HIM ending up hurt. BAD PLAN.

[Elwood]

Thanks again ladies,

 

You are all right. I wasn't thinking about his cortisol levels or letting him feel cornered. Of course it will undo the past year of training.

 

I'll only let him off when the beach is empty or only has dogs he knows and loves there . Back to my original plan., where I immediately leash him when new dogs approach and walk the other way.

 

I'll be creating reactive dogs like Elwood if I keep doing this.

 

Makes sense.

Thanks for being there for us. We both appreciate the experienced advice your all giving us.

[Elwood]

This morning Elwood layed a piece of bark at the cats feet.

Thank god he ignored him.

 

[urge to herd]

Great news about the cat ignoring the bark. Obviously Elwood is desperate and even more obviously, the cat has been reading this thread.

 

And there's got to be a really bad, dreadful, groaner of a pun about the cat ignoring the 'bark'. I just can't figure it out.

 

Way to go, Elwood and (I can't remember your name - a lifelong failing of mine) his human! Keep up the awesome work and love you show for your boy!

 

Ruth and Gibbs