mum24dog Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 OK, I'm as guilty as anyone just because of the temptation for some working breeders to go over to the dark side and start producing fancy colours for the sport / pet market where there are more people willing to splash the cash on superficialities like colour but if this dog were photoshopped to non merle what would you think? http://www.valmissheepdogs.com/#!jazz/cw10 See the News section on the site for Trial results and a video of a trial run. I'm not asking for a critique of her work or anything else on the site. She's doing well in Open trials over the terrain the breed was created for. That's enough for the purposes of my musings. One great grandparent out of 8 produced the markings. I can't find anything about that dog but just for argument's sake let's assume it wasn't a great worker even though it was dual registered ISDS / KC. If not, who can say why the original breeder who used it did so? Does it matter any more? She isn't the only merle working in the area but I don't know any details about any others. Should we be more open minded and follow the tenet that appearance doesn't matter? It's one thing to say that bringing in non workers for whatever reason isn't a good idea, quite another to dismiss completely dogs where that might have happened generations ago just because of what they look like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 I think she's perfectly lovely! My ideal in terms of appearance (it's no secret I love merles) and a working dog. For me, that's my perfect border collie. There are still working merles in parts of Wales, and I suspect elsewhere. Where else would the original stock for the color breeders have come from? Someone must not have too much of a prejudice against merles. It would have been entirely too easy to eliminate them from the gene pool entirely a long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 She reminds me of a younger Dean. Therefore, I think she is beautiful!! It's interesting that she does stockwork, Agility, and Obedience. It does seem to me that in the UK there is much less of a divide between those who work the dogs on sheep and those who them in sports. I could be perceiving that wrong, and of course it may not be completely universal, but that is what I have gotten a sense of in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oko Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 She reminds me of a younger Dean. Therefore, I think she is beautiful!! It's interesting that she does stockwork, Agility, and Obedience. It does seem to me that in the UK there is much less of a divide between those who work the dogs on sheep and those who them in sports. I could be perceiving that wrong, and of course it may not be completely universal, but that is what I have gotten a sense of in general. I agree, I don't know much about the UK, but I'm friends with a lot of people that compete in sheepdog trials in europe and it seems like a lot of people that do agility or obedience with their dogs also compete in sheepdog trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Interesting that the pedigree lists her colour as black tricolour. Not sure what to make of that. amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 I'm not understanding the "generations ago" comment. You seem to be saying that generations ago merle was introduced into that line for whatever reason. But someone would have continued to breed merles out of that line to get Jazz, right? So my question would be "What did all those dogs who were used to bring the merle down through the generations do?" In other words, were they being bred just on the basis of their color or were some other merits also considered? I don't care one way or the other about the color. But I do think someone had to make breeding decisions based on color for Jazz to have been created in the first place. And there is a shepherdess who had a bunch of merle dogs who seemed to be nice dogs, but when you consider how few are out there in comparison to the more "standard" colors, I just don't see how their numbers could be increased overall in the working population unless breeders are putting color over ability, at least some of the time. That said, if she's a great working dog and is bred from and her pups are also great working dogs, then I have no beef with any of it. Amy, That is odd. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 ... but if this dog were photoshopped to non merle what would you think? You mean like this? Genotype merle Phenotype merle Phototype tri test before breeding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 The question to ask, if the dog was plain old black and white, would it have been bred? While some are viewed to be prejudice, I think there are way more who show favoritism when it comes to selection when the dog is a special color combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 A good dog is a good dog, no matter what it looks like superficially. I've watched several very good working merles and they are worthwhile working dogs. Like you say, though, I think there is temptation to breed for color because there is a market for color among hobbyists, pet owners, performance sports owners, and others looking for something "unusual" rather than simply working ability. There are too many people who have seen this opportunity and decided to take advantage of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted October 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Interesting that the pedigree lists her colour as black tricolour. Not sure what to make of that. amy Odd but it's not the first pedigree I've seen with the wrong colour shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted October 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 You mean like this? Merle not merle.jpg Genotype merle Phenotype merle Phototype tri test before breeding... Perfect. I'd have that dog like a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 OK, I'm as guilty as anyone just because of the temptation for some working breeders to go over to the dark side and start producing fancy colours for the sport / pet market where there are more people willing to splash the cash on superficialities like colour but if this dog were photoshopped to non merle what would you think? http://www.valmissheepdogs.com/#!jazz/cw10 See the News section on the site for Trial results and a video of a trial run. I'm not asking for a critique of her work or anything else on the site. She's doing well in Open trials over the terrain the breed was created for. That's enough for the purposes of my musings. One great grandparent out of 8 produced the markings. I can't find anything about that dog but just for argument's sake let's assume it wasn't a great worker even though it was dual registered ISDS / KC. If not, who can say why the original breeder who used it did so? Does it matter any more? She isn't the only merle working in the area but I don't know any details about any others. Should we be more open minded and follow the tenet that appearance doesn't matter? It's one thing to say that bringing in non workers for whatever reason isn't a good idea, quite another to dismiss completely dogs where that might have happened generations ago just because of what they look like. I don't understand your question. I didn't bother to go look at the dog. What I thought of the dog wouldn't change whether it was merle or B&W, or according to how it looked in a picture. I have no prejudice against merles per se (even the slightly higher deafness risk in Mm merles is too minor to matter to me). I'm prejudiced against breeders who breed for exotic, commercial colors, and most merles over here come from breeders who breed for exotic, commercial colors. Therefore, the odds are that those dogs will be inferior in working ability. If one of them beats those odds, then I wouldn't think less of the dog because it was a merle, although that wouldn't make me try to buck the odds by seeking out a dog from that breeder. And as usual, I'm not going to speculate on whether things are otherwise in the UK or not, because I don't have enough first-hand information to justify an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 There is a big difference between (1) prejudice against an individual dog because of its merle coloration and (2) a strongly held opinion that border collies should not be bred to select for a particular color. Let's be careful to maintain that distinction. In my opinion, we should hope that the merle trait does not make significant inroads into working border collies. Face it, they're dogs. "Whoops!" litters do happen. It would be awfully sad if there were lots of merles around and we began to see merle X merle accidental breedings, with the resulting double merle puppies. One does see that in Aussies, e.g., take a look at the dogs listed in this rescue that specializes in double merles: http://www.amazingaussies.com/ The local Socal Aussie rescue always seems to have a few blind and/or deaf dogs, and they take a long time, if ever, to find homes for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted October 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 The question to ask, if the dog was plain old black and white, would it have been bred? I don't see why not. I'm sure Boss wouldn't have been chosen as a stud for Killiebrae Jaz if he had no talent and that is the only Killiebrae merle BC litter there has been, so the breeder told me. Rings true from what I know. Joss is an Open trial dog so why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted October 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 I don't understand your question. I didn't bother to go look at the dog. What I thought of the dog wouldn't change whether it was merle or B&W, or according to how it looked in a picture. A picture tells you nothing but if you had bothered to follow the link you could have seen the dog working and seen her trial results. That would have given you a bit more to go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 A picture tells you nothing but if you had bothered to follow the link you could have seen the dog working and seen her trial results. That would have given you a bit more to go on. To echo Eileen, but why?? What's the point? Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted October 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 I don't care one way or the other about the color. But I do think someone had to make breeding decisions based on color for Jazz to have been created in the first place. J. The That's rather an assumption based on supposition rather than evidence. And even if it were true it doesn't seem to have had much if any of a deleterious effect in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Open trial dog does not equal breeding quality, lots of open trial dogs that never have pups, lots of open trial dogs that others wouldn't be interested in owning more of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted October 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 To echo Eileen, but why?? What's the point? Am I missing something? Maybe to examine long held prejudices and consider whether sometimes you may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I've been somewhat brainwashed into believing that merle = bred for colour = inability to work but the more I look into it I find that it isn't necessarily the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 The question still remains, if the bitch had not been merle would she have been bred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 I don't know that anyone has said the merle = inability to work. It is said time and time again that the odds of a pup being merle and also a great worker are lower then a tri or a b/w. Which also leads to the question of whether or not any given merle that is being bred is being bred because it is a exceptional worker or because it is merle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 The That's rather an assumption based on supposition rather than evidence. And even if it were true it doesn't seem to have had much if any of a deleterious effect in the long run. Weeellll, there's "long run" and "long run," even aside from the breeding for color issue, which is serious. Perhaps this dog is a great worker and a merle. But consider the temptation for the person who doesn't consider the big picture saying, "Hey! A merle that works! I want a merle that works!" In the big picture, every additional merle dog "in the pool" has the effect of a greater chance of more merles being born. I think that merles being anything more than the occasional - very occasional - birth is the desiderata being sought here. Because in just about any other breed that color occurs in, there are problems. Sometimes big problems. So less merles, and no intentional merles is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireFly Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 I won't deny it, I find Jazz absolutely stunning. I find merle, in general, to be rather appealing. I'd kill for Merle BC, that has working ability. A question. Lets say that a breeder puts working ability above everything else. If those certain BC's can prove themselves that they can work stock(have competed, & earned titles), & that will always be their first priority. If that said dog can't properly work stock? That dog will not be bred.Ever. But, lets say, that this same breeder will also pick out a dog based on what it's color is. There is no merle to merle breeding's Would this be acceptable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 A picture tells you nothing but if you had bothered to follow the link you could have seen the dog working and seen her trial results. That would have given you a bit more to go on. Yes, but you said you weren't interested in a critique of her work. Maybe to examine long held prejudices and consider whether sometimes you may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I've been somewhat brainwashed into believing that merle = bred for colour = inability to work but the more I look into it I find that it isn't necessarily the case. In North America, the overwhelming majority of merle border collies are the result of breeding for color, with working ability being a minor consideration or no consideration at all, and as a result those dogs are almost always lacking in working ability. Which part of that equation do you dispute? I don't know any dogs bred for color in the UK. I have never seen a merle in any of the UK sheepdog trials I have attended, from the International down to local trials. Maybe you have breeders breeding for merles and other exotic colors for the sports and pet market in your country, and maybe you don't -- I don't know. I also don't know how those dogs perform as working/trialing dogs, or how many of them have ever been used as working/trialing dogs. Maybe you could spell out your point more fully? What is it you think the existence of this dog proves? How am I (or are we) throwing the baby out with the bath water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 I think there are people who just plain want a merle dog. It feels to me like there is a grasping at some straw of an argument to justify color breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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