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Border-doodles.......


KathyF
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When I was a kid, we adopted a pup whose mother was an Aussie and whose father was a poodle. I guess that'd make him an Aussiedoodle these days. (Not a Borderdoodle, but not that far removed, either, so I hope I'm not hijacking the post). Those days he was just a "whoops!" mutt, and we certainly didn't pay for him. In appearance, he could be a twin to the first photo that Jaderbug posted.

 

He wasn't a great dog for a family with three kids under the age of ten (and a fourth on the way). He didn't get any training (my mother had her hands full, my father traveled a lot, and we kids weren't old enough). He got agitated and tried to bite when the boys were roughhousing; he had serious food guarding issues; and he'd bite (hard enough to draw blood; I still bear the scars) if you scolded him for anything. We gave him to an elderly couple (after warning them of his "issues"). He went after someone trying to break into their home, which elevated him to the hero of their neighborhood. All their elderly friends clamored for his companionship on walks. So his story had a happy ending.

 

I don't know whether any of this proves, or disproves, the hypothesis that -doodles inherently have unpleasant personalities, vs that they turn out the way they do because they have clueless owners. I think we bore a lot of responsibility for how this dog turned out.

 

A few years later, after I did a lot of research into different breeds of dog, we got our first Border collie. No one had heard of them in those days (mid '60s), so we were constantly being asked what kind of dog Jack was. I think his parents or grandparents were dogs Disney had imported for some movies. Anyway I was old enough at that point to take him to obedience school, and of course he was the star of the class. He was a fantastic dog. I've never owned anything other than Border collies since.

 

My sister (in the UK) got a labradoodle puppy this summer (her daughter has allergies, and her vet recommended a labradoodle). (Did I try to talk her out of it? By the time I'd heard that was where they were heading, they'd already contacted a breeder and had an appointment to come meet the litter). I urged her to sign the pup up for puppy kindergarten, and she did, so with luck we'll be able to find out how labradoodles turn out if they've been appropriately socialized and trained. She ended up with a puppy class (with clicker training) that's taught in the evening at a local pub.

 

Why don't we have settings like that for obedience classes in the US?

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And most of the people who buy them would be better off with Poodles, which is something I don't say lightly because I literally have never met a Standard Poodle that I liked. (They are pushy, horrible, obnoxious dogs with five foot vertical leaps.)

 

Yup - they would be better off with poodles. But I think ill-mannered poodles are the fault of owners, not the breed (much like heel biting toy breeds)

 

I know a standard who is a perfect family dog. Well mannered and playful, but not over the top. She live with 3 young kids and is great with them.

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It's all very well to get all self-righteous about people creating novel mixes or "breeds" but it's pointless in the end. Better conserve your energy for improving and defending the one we've got.

 

Producing mixed breed pups is not what bothers me. It's charging so much money for a mutt and claiming that hybrid vigor makes the price justifiable that I think is wrong. Hybrid vigor only works when the 2 breeds being used suffer from different disease. Since BCs and Poodles can both have HD, Bordoodles can also have HD. People with mutts, especially F1 mutts, don't spend significantly less on vet care than people with purebreds (unless they have certain purebreds that are known medical dissasters).

 

Would you think it was wrong for someone who breeds purebred BCs to charge $2000 for a pup?

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He looked exactly like a working Beardie, which I suppose will only mean something to those of you who have seen working Beardies, which I bet is not many.
I have. His owner, a deeply experienced BC breeder and sheep farmer, uses him as her 'go to' dog. When the job must be done, and done right, and done right now, she calls her working beardy. She has other dogs that she uses on seriously uppity ewes, and dogs she uses to start newby handlers, and so on, but her working beardy is her number one farmhand.

 

But the thing is, Poodles are considered feminine, and foofy, and uncool, and kind of Euro, and just not very manly.
A base cannard. The French military and police use them for crowd control - bitework, yanno? Nothing 'floofy' abuot that! They were originally bred as general-purpose hunting dogs. That silly haircut you see in shows? It had its origins in real work - it was designed, originally, to allow the dog maximum freedom of movement in heavy underbrush and brambles, whilst protecting the most heat-loss prone parts of the body. Yeah, it's since gotten waaaaay silly, but it came from manly roots. Nothing effeminate about standard poodles, if you know anything about them.

 

 

My experience with standard poodles is that properly trained and socialized, they're about as good as any other dog. In short - you get out of them what you put into them. I think all of us understand that concept.

 

 

But deliberately creating mutts, then charging uber-premium prices? That's bull-squat. It's a scam, pure and simple.

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Producing mixed breed pups is not what bothers me. It's charging so much money for a mutt and claiming that hybrid vigor makes the price justifiable that I think is wrong. Hybrid vigor only works when the 2 breeds being used suffer from different disease. Since BCs and Poodles can both have HD, Bordoodles can also have HD. People with mutts, especially F1 mutts, don't spend significantly less on vet care than people with purebreds (unless they have certain purebreds that are known medical dissasters).

 

Would you think it was wrong for someone who breeds purebred BCs to charge $2000 for a pup?

 

No. I wouldn't. I think anyone is entitled to charge as much as they want for any good or service they wish to offer for sale. If no one wants to buy it at that price, they will likely lower their price. If everyone else is selling Border Collie pups for $500, there won't be much of a market for $2000 pups, but if someone has a pup they think is worth $2000 or $20000, who am I to tell them to sell it for 1/4 or 1/40 as much.

 

I think it's silly for someone to pay $6.5 million/year for David Beckham to kick a soccer ball around for 90 minutes a week, but if someone offered it to me, I wouldn't turn it down.

 

Likewise, if I was selling pups and someone offered me $2000 for one instead of $500, all other thing being equal, I wouldn't say no and I don't know too many people who would.

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Yup - they would be better off with poodles. But I think ill-mannered poodles are the fault of owners, not the breed (much like heel biting toy breeds)

 

I know a standard who is a perfect family dog. Well mannered and playful, but not over the top. She live with 3 young kids and is great with them.

 

have to agree with you there. its the owners, because of the 8 Standard poodles I have met, every last one of them were AMAZING dogs, like seriously, I actually have Standard poodles on a the list of breeds I would like to own one day..I never thought that would happen, but I have yet to meet a standard that wasnt the smartest, sweetest and most gentle and friendly dog.

 

as for doodles... I am not a fan of MOST doodles, however we have a ton of Labradoodles that come to work, and they are actually really great dogs, I can only think of 1 that I dont like at all, but a majority of them are very friendly and pleasent dogs. Goldendoodles are a different story, every one I have met has been so annoying and obnoxious, they are just as bad if not worse then most Goldens around here. as far as little poo's..I dont know very many! but the ones I do know are nasty little things, the maltipoo's are the worst. little poo croses are not common here, the common mix here is Bichon crosses and Havanese crosses.

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1) Who cares? Really, they're not Border Collies anymore. Won't be registered as Border Collies. If someone wants a Bordoodle for some reason known only to themselves, and is willing to pay big money for one, who am I to tell them they're idiots?

 

2) Every breed was a mutt once upon a time. Border Collies did not spring into being on the sixth day of creation. Someone took some of this and some of that, made a mutt, inbred the mutt, bred it to something else, linebred that a bit and voila - the Border Collie which is defined functionally rather than visually (in our world at least) but one of reasons the AKC kept the Border Collie out for such a long time, was that they considered their diversity of form, coat, colouring, and markings as proof that they were mutts (then they realized that there were a lot of them and they were cleaning up in agility and obedience and decided that they might be purebred dog$ after all).

 

It's all very well to get all self-righteous about people creating novel mixes or "breeds" but it's pointless in the end. Better conserve your energy for improving and defending the one we've got.

 

Pearse

 

"Border Collies did not spring into being on the sixth day of creation."

 

THEY DIDN'T????!!!! I'm SO disillusioned! :rolleyes:

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Here's a comment from a Border Collie/Border Doodle site: If you love Border Collies but don't like the shedding, this might fit the bill for you! These will be SMART puppies!

 

What shedding? I've got three medium coated purebred BCs in the house, and the cat sheds more than they all do put together.

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Here's a comment from a Border Collie/Border Doodle site: If you love Border Collies but don't like the shedding, this might fit the bill for you! These will be SMART puppies!

 

What shedding? I've got three medium coated purebred BCs in the house, and the cat sheds more than they all do put together.

"Non-shedding / hypo-allergenic" has long been one of the key buzz-phrases when people are pushing 'doodles.' It's utter bull, of course - ALL dogs shed, and all have dander. Some more, some less, but no dog is free of these traits. Seeing as they're already selling to what I consider to be an ignorant customer base, they can make pretty much any claim they want, and likely get away with it.

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I don't really have any BIGGER objection to the -oodle and -uggle type breeding than I do to any breeding. There are dogs dying by the thousands in shelters every day, and I don't think we need to pay people to add more dogs to the world until all the unhomed ones are rehomed.

 

But I think most of my neighbors are probably better off with a puggle than a beagle, so what the heck. If they're going to waste money on a "fancy" dog, and let a perfectly good and loving dog at the shelter die, it doesn't matter whether they waste money on breeder dog X or Y.

 

But I have to defend standard poodles. I never met one until I got Buddy - and admit to having prejudice based on their silly haircuts - and then I started meeting them at the park and obedience classes. Lordy, when they run they are the most beautiful and elegant looking things on earth. It's like watching "So You Think You Can Dance" in dog form. And none of the ones we've met have been obnoxious or strange: just normal, down-to-earth dogs who walk in the woods and play with Buddy and generally listen to their owners.

 

We also run into labradoodles and goldendoodles fairly frequently. Not worth their price tag, for sure, but in generaly less obnoxious than the labs who almost invariably charge straight at us and annoy Buddy. One of the sweetest dogs we meet is the other Buddy: a goldendoodle who, when he sees any human coming, starts smiling (you know that face) and continues smiling with delight the whole time he's able to talk to you. He really is just about the sweetest thing!

 

Mary

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I don't really have any BIGGER objection to the -oodle and -uggle type breeding than I do to any breeding. There are dogs dying by the thousands in shelters every day, and I don't think we need to pay people to add more dogs to the world until all the unhomed ones are rehomed.

 

But I think most of my neighbors are probably better off with a puggle than a beagle, so what the heck. If they're going to waste money on a "fancy" dog, and let a perfectly good and loving dog at the shelter die, it doesn't matter whether they waste money on breeder dog X or Y.

 

But I have to defend standard poodles. I never met one until I got Buddy - and admit to having prejudice based on their silly haircuts - and then I started meeting them at the park and obedience classes. Lordy, when they run they are the most beautiful and elegant looking things on earth. It's like watching "So You Think You Can Dance" in dog form. And none of the ones we've met have been obnoxious or strange: just normal, down-to-earth dogs who walk in the woods and play with Buddy and generally listen to their owners.

 

We also run into labradoodles and goldendoodles fairly frequently. Not worth their price tag, for sure, but in generaly less obnoxious than the labs who almost invariably charge straight at us and annoy Buddy. One of the sweetest dogs we meet is the other Buddy: a goldendoodle who, when he sees any human coming, starts smiling (you know that face) and continues smiling with delight the whole time he's able to talk to you. He really is just about the sweetest thing!

 

Mary

 

Agreed. The standard poodle suffers from many of the same breeding and ownership problems that haunt the AKC border collies. A wonderful friend who is very secure in his masculinity has a beautiful black standard poodle named Oliver who is just wonderful...smart, well behaved, and of great help to Neil who admits to being in his "mid-eighties" but is probably closer to ninety. Oliver just just about four years old and helps him to preform many tasks. I understand the standard poodle cut was originally to protect them from frigid water as they were hunting/retrieving dogs?

 

 

 

Liz

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I understand the standard poodle cut was originally to protect them from frigid water as they were hunting/retrieving dogs?
Yup. As I understand, the clipped portions were to free portions of the body for running through close undergrowth, and the unclipped portions were to protect the body against excessive heat loss. The clipped portions of the body would shed icy water very quickly - If the dog is running though shallow, chilly water, the chest, head, and torso would stay somewhat more dry and protected from the cold, and the wet clipped legs would dry quickly.
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yup the poodle cut did have its purpose, but the actuall hunting clip is not much like the silly show type clips at all! basicly the hair is clipped a little bit thicker on the head, chest, ankles, tail and kidneys to protect those organs and joints from frigid water, while keeping the rest a little bit shorter to prevents them from getting to hot and from getting bogged down. but the "short" parts are more like the legth of a sporting clip, and the thick parts only a little thicker. being shaved to the skin exept for giant puffballs would be completly usless!

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I suspect that the coat of the original poodle was much more coarse and less prone to collecting burrs and matting. I know if I was a hunter I sure wouldn't own a dog that required a brush out after every hunt!

 

This is true of just about every breed in the show ring. The coats of the show dogs are much more fine and require lots of grooming while the coats of working lines are less full, shorter and more coarse, rarely requiring any maintinance at all.

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The low maintenance aspect is one of the things I LOVE about Odin's coat, even if he is sort of a shedder and has a longish coat. (Not anywhere *near* as bad as my family's old husky was though). Yesterday he was covered in mud from head to toe, after my coworker had been throwing oak galls into a wetland mitigation site for him to retrieve -- 12-18 inches of semi stagnant water over very soft bottomed mucky clays and had a good amount of stinky algae too. Today, without even any brushing, his coat feels soft, smells fine, and his whites are popping again. Teflon coats are magical! Although I can see how a smooth coat would be even better in this climate - carrot burs are annoying during the late summer with all his britches and feathers, although those come out pretty easily with a slicker brush.

 

As for -doodles, I haven't met any I liked, but maybe it's because they are usually crashing into the backs of my knees on the trail. That seems like an owner issue to me. I have met standard poodles I liked a lot, but I really haven't known very many. I'm not a huge fan of labs or retrievers in general.

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  • 3 weeks later...
The low maintenance aspect is one of the things I LOVE about Odin's coat, even if he is sort of a shedder and has a longish coat. (Not anywhere *near* as bad as my family's old husky was though). Yesterday he was covered in mud from head to toe, after my coworker had been throwing oak galls into a wetland mitigation site for him to retrieve -- 12-18 inches of semi stagnant water over very soft bottomed mucky clays and had a good amount of stinky algae too. Today, without even any brushing, his coat feels soft, smells fine, and his whites are popping again. Teflon coats are magical! Although I can see how a smooth coat would be even better in this climate - carrot burs are annoying during the late summer with all his britches and feathers, although those come out pretty easily with a slicker brush.

 

I realize that this is a non-political hi-jack, but I have to say that I love Zin and Zephyr's low-maintenance coats. They never get baths, we're terrible about getting around to brushing them, and yet they always look so shiny and beautiful, and garner compliments wherever they go.

 

In contrast, our rugs and upholstered furniture are all very high-maintenance. They keep collecting all these black hairs from somewhere or other, and to keep them really clean I'd have to vacuum twice a day. I'm thinking of getting rid of them.

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Anybody who "needs" to spend thousands of dollars on a "mutt" should just donate the money to a shelter and adopt one of many , many dogs that need a second chance... a "mutt" is just as worthy of a loving home as is a pure breed , they make great pets , and some have gone on to be champions in NADAC , USDAA and so on.....

I've had adopted dogs all my life , have two BC now that were out of a rescue and I would do it again in a heartbeat..

I've got them ILPs and they are on their way to their first MACHS .I didnt have to spend thousands for them , just a donation to the rescue .

I recently purchased my first BC and I still have a twinge in my heart because I didnt rescue one . So another donation to the rescue was needed to quell that feeling..

 

IMO , whoever thought up this idea of "designer" breeds should be shot..

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Its just all wrong and stupid

A crossbreed is no guarantee of non shedding or anything else

and I got me two fantastic crossbreeds for £75 from the shelter - you can get just about any cross you want there and make up any silly name for them - mine are McFuzzylugs :rolleyes:

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If the dog has a tongue then it is not hypoallergenic.

Canis familiaris allergen 1 (Can f 1) and Canis familiaris allergen 2 (Can f 2) are the two major allergens present in dog dander extracts.

Can f 1, produced by tongue epithelial tissue,....

Can f 2, produced by tongue and parotid gland,....

 

source: Immunology. 1997 December; 92(4): 577-586

Factors related to individual dogs seem to influence the allergenicity more than breed or gender.

 

Source: Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A, Volume 71, Issue 11 & 12 January 2008 , pages 751 - 758

 

Mark

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What the heck would be the purpose of a border collie/poodle cross? Seriously, just get a standard poodle and keep its hair long. As much as I clearly love border collies, this is a case where I just don't see the bc genes adding much in terms of personality traits that is going to be of interest to a typical pet owner. Poodles, while obviously inferior to our beloved border collies, are still very smart dogs.

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What the heck would be the purpose of a border collie/poodle cross? Seriously, just get a standard poodle and keep its hair long. As much as I clearly love border collies, this is a case where I just don't see the bc genes adding much in terms of personality traits that is going to be of interest to a typical pet owner. Poodles, while obviously inferior to our beloved border collies, are still very smart dogs.

 

I joke it's for those allergic farmers. :rolleyes:

 

They sell here a lot through the local pet store. I wouldn't have known what they were (the poo crosses all look the smae to me) except I saw a black and white one and just had to go in the store to see (thinking in my head 'surely not...') Yep, borderdoodles is what they had them labelled as.

 

I will say that I quite like a lot of labradoodles I meet. I suspect that comes from the fact that most the labradoodles I know are through the guide dog program here and are actually purpose bred and trained.

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Poodles, while obviously inferior to our beloved border collies, are still very smart dogs.

 

Poodles (I mean the original standard poodle) were smart dogs -- bred for a different purpose, rather than inferior to border collies. Breeding for conformation and especially for miniature "lap dogs" has taken most of the smarts away from them (I speak only of those I have met -- maybe some that retain the original breed characteristics exist in France).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Came across these vis of BC x poodles when looking for something else -

 

 

 

All owned by the same person (must like grooming).

 

Disney must be 11 by now and has done quite a bit of TV work in his time, but then scruffy dogs are always in demand.

 

Pam

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