Barbie Collie Herding

[Tea]

Uh.....trialing is what allowed me to learn to catch sheep that had never seen a dog for shearing.

 

A significant part of my income.

[brndlbc]

But your dog did not have to trial to learn how to bring you a sheep. You took a competition dog and turned it into a working dog and I applaud you for that. Trial dogs are not working dogs, they are competition dogs. Sorry, I am very old school in my thoughts here. Getting older and crabbier by the day....

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

From what I've learned in this thread I think the show BCs should possibly start a different breed (I mean consider their show bred BCs a different breed) and call their dogs something else and go from there.

 

During the Dog Wars, those of us who fought against full recognition of the Border Collie suggested that the show ring version of the Border Collie be called by another name (American Border Collie was one possibility). Jack Russell Terrier folks managed to get the show ring version of their breed to be labeled as the Parson's Russell Terriers, but we weren't as fortunate.

 

I feel that everyone who is interested in Border Collies should read Donald McCaig's book, The Dog Wars. Even if the book doesn't convince them to rethink their allegiance to the ACK, at least they would be fully informed about what transpired during that time.

 

Regards,

nancy

[NCStarkey]

Hello brndlbc,

 

But your dog did not have to trial to learn how to bring you a sheep. You took a competition dog and turned it into a working dog and I applaud you for that. Trial dogs are not working dogs, they are competition dogs. Sorry, I am very old school in my thoughts here. Getting older and crabbier by the day....

 

If you believe that trial dogs are not working dogs, I think that you haven't seen the right sheepdog trials! The Open level class at most USBCHA sanctioned trials certainly tests a dog's abilities to perform the work necessary to be a top working dog. The sheep currently being used at the National Finals are certainly not "trained sheep", and they are definitely testing the dogs running there!

 

Regards,

nancy

[Tea]

.... about my working life.

 

I am a full time shepherd. I forage sheep loose on horseback with dogs. This is the only way I can feed them. I have between 80 to 120 head at any one time. We process the wool and make clothing, butcher for meat, milk, make cheese,(Although I cannot sell the cheese yet!) make soap, brain tan the hides.

 

I also shear sheep professionally

 

My dogs all work hard for their bread so to speak.

 

I only started competing this last year.

 

Because of the trials, and the help from the trial folks, who for the most part, helped me for free, I was able to expand my work.

 

So on my shearing flyers It says I

will go out and round up sheep for folks that cannot catch them themselves. This adds money to my pocket.

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

Trial dogs are not working dogs, they are competition dogs. Sorry, I am very old school in my thoughts here. Getting older and crabbier by the day....

Really? Do you think such a blanket statement is truly accurate? Sure there are dogs who trial and are kept solely for trialing. But some (dare I say many?) of us actually rely on our dogs to help us manage our livestock. Trialing is a fun outgrowth of the work, and allows us to prove our dogs or compare them with other dogs with respect to a particular standard, but in the end it's still about the work, at least by the time you get to the highest levels of competition. I think most of us who understand the work also understand that a dog doesn't have to be a trialing dog to be a working dog, but it's ludicrous to claim that trial dogs aren't working dogs.

 

Another thing I'd like to point out is that there's work and there's work. Sure there are folks who use dogs to get the job done any way they can and a lot of times it's not real pretty. If the person using the dog is happy with the work, then who am I to say they should to otherwise. But the training that goes into a trial dog generally can make for better stock management at home as well. For example, a dog who habitually slices its flanks is likely to not do well at trials, but at home it might be able to get away with that on its own stock. But if slicing flanks causes more stress to the stock than proper flanks, wouldn't it behoove the handler to teach the dog a proper flank? No points or trials will be lost if the dog flanks improperly at home, or grips unnecessarily, or harasses stock instead of moving them calmly, but proper work is supposed to be rewarded at trials, and if one has to train one's dog to work properly (i.e., trial worthy), doing so actually would make for less stressful handling of stock at home. This relates to a comment I made in a different thread: We need to remember that the whole point of the dogs is efficient, low-stress management of stock. Dogs trained or working to some poor standard probably aren't accomplishing both of those things; dogs trained to a higher standard (say, USBCHA open) probably can accomplish both of those things. Dogs trialing at lower levels probably land along a bell curve when it comes to proper stock handling. And I'll admit that as more people come to trialing from a non-stock background, the stock seem to be relegated to the status of "necessary evil" in order to accomplish a result (winning a trial), but I think there are folks out there who recognize the real value of these dogs and their real purpose, and those folks don't view the work just as a means to an end (winning a competition), but as something that allows them to raise stock using proper husbandry.

 

And how are you old school? Do you work your dogs (as in stockwork)?

 

And how does one decide what kind of work should be done by a BC? any kind of herding whether it be ducks, emus, sheep, and cows or only sheep?

 

When you define work as helping to manage stock then there's no need to *decide* what type of work the border collie does. Mine work sheep and poultry. Some folks use theirs only for cattle. I don't know anyone who uses them to manage emus, but if someone had emus and used a border collie to manage them, then it's work. Traditionally, border collies were mainly sheep dogs, but like anything, if a farmer of shepherd found them handy for managing other livestock, then there was nothing precluding them from doing so. I don't keep cattle or goats, so mine don't usually work either, but they have been called upon on occasion by my neighbors to work both, and we go do it. A well-bred, well-trained working dog can usually figure out other types of stock well enough to be helpful.

 

J.

[njnovice]

I feel that everyone who is interested in Border Collies should read Donald McCaig's book, The Dog Wars. Even if the book doesn't convince them to rethink their allegiance to the ACK, at least they would be fully informed about what transpired during that time.

 

I second this. I also have recommended it to non-Border Collie people who are interested in preserving their (insert breed of choice) dog's working ability.

[brndlbc]

Well it seems that I have struck a nerve....so sorry competition folk...no offense was intended. So that you have a better understanding of the way I think. This is what I posted in another thread:

 

 

 

This has been interesting. In my opinion, working dogs are dogs that actively participate in the daily goings on of and in which assist in making the lives of the people they “serve” easier (ranch work) or in which society derives some sort of benefit i.e. SAR, TDI, etc. All other dogs fall into a competition and or companion category.

 

Competition is just that...competition. Self promoting, ego stroking activities that satisfy some competitive urge from within, are usually performed under the guise of being "fun" and to use Diana's words, have "no true lasting value in the real world". Competitions are events that require voluntary entry into with or with out entry fees and include but are not limited to, Obedience, Rally, Tracking, Agility and Herding.

 

Do I have a problem with competition events? Not at all and certainly not as long as the people who participate in them keep everything in perspective, that being that society derives " no true lasting value" from the top placing dogs in any competition and treat the results as such. My border collie is an agility champion and no one other than myself (and my ego) got anything out of that. All it proves is that I took the time and put the effort into the training needed to get the "job" done.

 

So where am I going with this? Dogs in general are an expensive hobby and unless someone is strictly putting dogs out there into "working" homes, then they are trying to breed for some "arbitrary criteria" set by themselves or someone else that ultimately has "no true lasting value in the real world". No true working dog ever has to prove his worth in a competition "ring".

 

 

 

Those are my thoughts...attack if you feel the need. You won't see me damning you for yours.....

[juliepoudrier]

Brndlbc,

Well since I'm the one who's been replying to you, you must be referring to me when you say you've struck a nerve. Rest assured that you're not really striking a nerve. The responses I post to threads like this are meant to educate any and all readers, not just to respond to a particular person posting. In the grand scheme of things, your opinion is yours and mine is mine, but at least I can say that my opinion on working dogs derives from actually working my dogs on my farm to help me with my livestock. I also trial them. So I am in the position to compare real work vs. trialing. And I'm still not getting where you're coming from. Do you work your dogs on stock? Do you raise livestock? Have you ever competed in a USBCHA trial?

 

You may think you've struck a nerve, but seriously if you don't keep livestock or work your dog or even know the history of trialing (ISDS), I just find it a bit pretentious for you to come here and tell everyone else that, for example, trialing dogs aren't working dogs.

 

Sure winning competitions is at least in part about ego. But before the advent of trialing, most shepherds would likely breed their dog to the working bitch down the road because that's the dog they knew about. Trialing let people compare dogs from farther afield and make breeding decisions based on those comparisons. Trialing is pretty directly related to the working dogs we have today. Is trialing absolutely necessary to have a working dog? No. But as I pointed out in my earlier post, training to a higher standard (a trial standard) is likely to improve the work at home, and that certainly has nothing to do with stroking egos. So while no working dog has to prove itself in a competition "ring," training one's working dog as if you might want to prove it in the competition ring is likely to lead to better work at home, and that will benefit the *stock* tremendously.

 

If you want to talk about other dog sports, then I would probably agree with you. But trialing is based in the real work of these purpose-bred dogs, and it's trialing that essentially gave us the border collie we have today. Trialing and the real work are intertwined, whether you wish to believe that or not.

 

And implying that any reply someone makes to your opinions is an attack on you is akin to trying to stifle discussion isn't it?

 

J.

[Tea]

Huh?

 

I thought I went to the trials to have fun and to relax????

 

I like to watch all the dogs

 

Work some new sheep.

 

 

Get some advice

 

Sell some mutton hotdogs

 

 

See some friends

 

Make new friends

 

Have Bob tell me the fetch gates are for me to go through not around.

 

Have George remind me where to stand to remember where the drive is going.

 

Dian gets a bunch of leaves together and shows me some complicated thing.

 

Carolyn tells me everything about every type of dog known. She is very smart about the dogs.

 

And Ben brings Brownies!!!!!

 

 

And I get to watch all this and then think of poetry

 

While Sweep the Horrifying Broom works........

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[geonni banner]

Competition is just that...competition. Self promoting, ego stroking activities that satisfy some competitive urge from within, are usually performed under the guise of being "fun" and to use Diana's words, have "no true lasting value in the real world". Competitions are events that require voluntary entry into with or with out entry fees and include but are not limited to, Obedience, Rally, Tracking, Agility and Herding.

 

Coming from someone (me) who neither trials nor works stock at home, even I can say that this ain't necessarily so. It is true that much of competitions are about ego, even stockdog competitions, I'd guess, but there is a very good reason for trials. They can be very instructive to a person who has a talented dog that they want to breed. It can showcase abilities and working styles which make it easier to find a suitable line of dogs to choose a mate from.

 

I would imagine that there is much to be learned at trials about dog handling and stock handling as well.

[brndlbc]

What we are arguing here is mostly semantics. I have a very narrow opinion of "work" and "working". Competitions are recreational activities. Neither you nor I ever "have" to enter a competition, we do so voluntarily.

 

And to answer the USBECHA question...no, never have. My dogs don't work our stock, our stock comes when called (horses).

[Pearse]

Well it seems that I have struck a nerve....so sorry competition folk...no offense was intended. So that you have a better understanding of the way I think. This is what I posted in another thread:

This has been interesting. In my opinion, working dogs are dogs that actively participate in the daily goings on of and in which assist in making the lives of the people they “serve” easier (ranch work) or in which society derives some sort of benefit i.e. SAR, TDI, etc. All other dogs fall into a competition and or companion category.

 

Competition is just that...competition. Self promoting, ego stroking activities that satisfy some competitive urge from within, are usually performed under the guise of being "fun" and to use Diana's words, have "no true lasting value in the real world". Competitions are events that require voluntary entry into with or with out entry fees and include but are not limited to, Obedience, Rally, Tracking, Agility and Herding.

 

Do I have a problem with competition events? Not at all and certainly not as long as the people who participate in them keep everything in perspective, that being that society derives " no true lasting value" from the top placing dogs in any competition and treat the results as such. My border collie is an agility champion and no one other than myself (and my ego) got anything out of that. All it proves is that I took the time and put the effort into the training needed to get the "job" done.

 

You are right and you are wrong.

 

Competition events can be self-promoting ego-stroking events, and many are.

 

You are also correct that no one but yourself gets anything out of your dog being an agility champion (other than those who derive pleasure from watching agility competitions).

 

Some people participate in stockdog field trials purely for their own entertainment. Some don't have sheep. Some wouldn't have sheep if they didn't have sheepdogs that they wanted to run in sheepdog trials.

 

But, and it's a big but, if one looks at the origin of sheepdog trials, and the reasons they have endured they do serve a more practical purpose. Trials (and there is a reason they are called "trials" and not "competitions") are an opportunity to evaluate the work of a large number of dogs on unfamiliar sheep on unfamiliar ground. If you had been to enough trials to see the same dogs run on different kinds of sheep, on different terrrain, in different weather conditions, you would see how the work shows the strengths and weaknesses of the different dogs. A useful dog is good on his home flock in his home fields. A good dog will do well on certain kinds of sheep. The great dogs can work anything, anywhere, any time. These are the dogs that produce the good farm dogs and ranch dogs.

 

You don't need trials to do this, but trials make it easier. They bring dogs and handlers together in one place at one time. And they do more. As Tea eloquently pointed out, sit at a trial and watch a hundred runs in a weekend and you will come away with a better understanding of dogs and sheep. Some of that you will learn from just watching, and some you will learn from someone with decades of experience pointing out something you would have missed.

 

I was at a trial a few weeks ago. I was seated beside one of the world's top handlers as he described what another of the world's top handlers was doing on the trial field. I learned more in fifteen minutes about sheep and dogs than I would have in a month of stumping about a pasture on my own.

 

So, yes it can be about stroking your own ego, but it doesn't have to be about that unless you allow it to.

 

Pearse

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>>>>>

 

QUOTE(brndlbc @ Sep 22 2010, 09:06 PM)

But your dog did not have to trial to learn how to bring you a sheep. You took a competition dog and turned it into a working dog and I applaud you for that. Trial dogs are not working dogs, they are competition dogs. Sorry, I am very old school in my thoughts here. Getting older and crabbier by the day....

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

Top Open Dog of the Year for the WASH Club....doing real work

 

http://deltabluez.blogspot.com/2010/09/passing-of-reins.html

 

Retired and was one of the top Open dogs...also doing real work....saving livestock in a flood

 

http://deltabluez.blogspot.com/2009/01/flood-part-one.html

 

my dogs are working dogs....without them, we would not have the farm.

 

When I go out to the post or to the farm gate, my dogs don't know if it is work or a trial...they know we are doing a job.

[jdarling]

brndlbc, the thread you posted with your two blue-eyed brindle dogs ... they're gorgeous dogs. What is the breeding behind them? It's not often you see a fully brindle Border Collie, no less two of them with two blue eyes. So glad to hear they aren't working your horses. What is the breeding behind them?

[Pearse]

What we are arguing here is mostly semantics. I have a very narrow opinion of "work" and "working". Competitions are recreational activities. Neither you nor I ever "have" to enter a competition, we do so voluntarily.

 

And to answer the USBECHA question...no, never have. My dogs don't work our stock, our stock comes when called (horses).

 

 

You are arguing semantics based upon your own, by your own admission, very narrow definition of "work". The rest of us have a broader definition so there is no dichotomy in our view between work done on the trial field and off from the point of view of the dog (who doesn't care if it's a competition or morning chores - it's all the same work to him).

 

You also admit that you have no personal experience of your dogs working stock.

 

No one has to enter a competition it's true. However, that's hardly a strong argument against the idea that there might be good reasons to do so.

 

No human has to train to a level where they can compete in Olympic endurance events, but the people who have done so have advanced our understanding of human physiology and biomechanics.

 

No one needs to run their dog in a sheepdog trial, but the ones who have done so have expanded the range of work that farmers and ranchers can expect from their dogs by showing what is possible, and by providing the breeding stock who can make it possible.

[brndlbc]

I never said that working dogs couldn't trial and that trial dogs could not work. My point is that, in my opinion a dog used strictly for trialing purposes is not a working dog by my definition. That dog is no different, again in my opinion, than an obedience dog, disc dog, agility dog etc. Society does not gain anything from a dog's performance in a trial anymore than society gains anything from an obedience dog turning in a perfect 200, an agility dog running clean or a distance catch in frisbee. I am not willing to separate competitions by "task". That is just a little too George Orwell for me.

 

If you would not have your farm with out your dogs, then you have "working" dogs.

[stockdogranch]

Brndlbc: As others have so articulately pointed out, trialling and working are often very intertwined (no, not always, but often). Here's one side of it: I have some friends who sheep trial. They keep a few sheep for training their dogs, but to them, yes, trialling is strictly a sport. But now here's the other side: I have a good friend who runs a lot of cattle--at any given time, he runs somewhere between 8,000 to 10,000 head. Pairs, feedlot, bulls, the full gamut. He has used working bred border collies for many years. A number of years ago he started going to some (USBCHA cattle) trials. Why? To see what else was out there that others were using on cattle so that he could improve his breeding program. The result? Better dogs and better handling all the way around (and some wonderful friendships along the way). Actually, I know a number of people in similar situations--they have lots of stock, use their dogs every day, and yet, given the time to do so, thoroughly enjoy trialling. So how would you classify these dogs?

 

I'm not sure how you get that "real work" and "competition" are mutually exclusive, nor how that is "old school."

A

[C Crocker]

What do you guys think about Hob Nob Riding High?

Apparently from what I've read she's from 2 conformation dogs and did fairly well in USBCHA Open.

 

Opinions? Comments?

I don't support the conformation borders because I hate their structure, and heavy bone + coat, I just want some opinions.

Edit: You can see her points in open if you just google her registered name. I think it's on the Hob Nob website.

 

 

 

 

I will try to educate you if that is possible. First of, I do not care why you ask what you do or why you think how you do, but here are some facts , if you are interested in facts.

 

Harley was shown years ago by the McFaddens in AKC conformation shows to get her CH. She was not built like any of the AKC show dogs of today. The showing was done more for daughter who Harley actually was bought for when the daughter was a young girl.

 

Harley was reg AKC, with quite a few ISDS dogs in her pedigree, so do not try and use her for a "show" dog example of "herding". She was not strictly "showline" bred. She was lightly started , then retrained and fully trained by a USBCHA trainer. Harley competed successfully in USBCHA trials , up to going to the Natl's in 2006.

 

I have not read what the breeder has said about dog and don't care to, but I will hazard a guess Harley is by far the best working stock dog to come from her barn, along with Harley's full brother. Both dogs had excellent training by the same trainer. And they both can and could go ranch work, so don't go down that road.

 

So I ask you start a discussion about something of which you know, which is not this dog.

 

And a word to the wise, if for some reason your horses do not come to your whistle in the future, please do not send your poor border collie out to fetch them.

[brndlbc]

brndlbc, the thread you posted with your two blue-eyed brindle dogs ... they're gorgeous dogs. What is the breeding behind them? It's not often you see a fully brindle Border Collie, no less two of them with two blue eyes. So glad to hear they aren't working your horses. What is the breeding behind them?

 

Both are ABCA and loaded with dogs like....Molly and Ben and Bob LOL. I am learning from here that it is nothing special but I am a horse person....you don't ride their papers. Neither is a working dog.

[C Crocker]

Both are ABCA and loaded with dogs like....Molly and Ben and Bob LOL. I am learning from here that it is nothing special but I am a horse person....you don't ride their papers. Neither is a working dog.

 

 

I am a horse person as well, and you may not think you ride their papers, but you do. Some may perform beyond their pedigree, but I sure as heck never based my breeding program on that theory.

[brndlbc]

And a word to the wise, if for some reason your horses do not come to your whistle in the future, please do not send your poor border collie out to fetch them.

 

If this is meant for me....OK I won't....I'll send the shepherd

[BenjaminButton]

So I ask you start a discussion about something of which you know, which is not this dog.

 

I didn't not say I know this dog in and out. I said I READ from random internet pages. For all I know those people could be trolls, cat people, kids, I have no idea. That's why I was here to ask you people that actually know this dog, know BCs lines, etc.

 

I'm just here to learn and hear opinions and no I will not start discussions on topics I already know because then there is no point of a discussion if I know everything and have a definitive answer.

[brndlbc]

I am a horse person as well, and you may not think you ride their papers, but you do. Some may perform beyond their pedigree, but I sure as heck never based my breeding program on that theory.

 

 

I would hoped that you wouldn't breed a horse if it couldn't ride rather than breed it just because it had papers which said it should

[jdarling]

Both are ABCA and loaded with dogs like....Molly and Ben and Bob LOL.

 

Cool. I've never seen a brindle border collie with blue eyes. What state are you from? Which agility venue do you compete in? AKC? NADAC? Which one is the agility champion?