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Border Collie Puppy Timeline?


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There are a whole lot of people who believes border collies being smart means they're going to be easy to train.


There are a whole lot of people who then quickly remember that intelligence is based on *thinking* and *problem solving* not obeying and then reassess both their methods and their views of themselves as dog trainers :P

Me amongst those people.


It's very normal.

And trust me, your crate is your friend and it is far, far, better to do that than get into a battle of wills with a puppy. That's just going to damage your relationship - both because you're frustrated and because the puppy is - and for really no gain at all. BC are not forgiving and 'forcing' rarely works out well, period. Another hazard of a 'thinking' dog who can and does read humans well.

 

Give both of you a break and use the crate and prevention. It'll work out far better for you n the long run.


I also want to add here, if it hasn't been mentioned that just because your puppy is learning commands, may be more physically coordinated or seem eager to 'work' or be serious? Doesn't equate to maturity. BC puppies often like to learn, learn fast, have better attention spans, etc - but. Not maturity. Emotional maturity is a thing and it takes as long a it takes, just like the rest.

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Repeat after me: "the crate is your friend". :)

 

Also ex pens, gates and tethers. I <3 ex pens.

 

You can block her into an ex pen, or you can use the ex pen to block things from her. My last puppy liked to go behind the TV stand where there's wires etc, So I just kept an ex pen around it until he grew up a little. I have a gate blocking off the hallway, and so there was no way he could sneak off when I wasn't looking. When I was introducing him to my grumpy adult dogs I could sort of divide the living room in half with 2 and so they could see, smell, etc but not touch each other to get used to each other. I block off parts of my patio when I want the dogs out with me and not running around. I can use 2 to bridge the wide opening between the livingroom and the kitchen. I have at least 6, probably more like 8!

 

Also some dogs are just mouthy, experiment with meals presented in frozen Kongs, various chew toys etc. If you are consistent showing her "not that, this" she will search out what she can have when she feels the need to dismantle something.

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Yes, the crate is your friend. Sooo many advantages to using a crate. Search for past topics dealing with crate use to read in depth the multiple reasons for crate training. It is helpful for both you and your pup.

 

If your pup is acting like a bratty toddler and flipping you off, she may be exhausted. Putting her a crate will allow her to calm down, and the pup often takes a nap within a few minutes of being crated. (Ver similar behavior to a human toddler who becomes overtired and starts acting out)

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Thanks for the tips D'Elle. I fully understand what you are saying. I've always said that to train a dog you need to be two things above all - consistent, and persistent. What I'm guilty of here is not doing my homework thoroughly enough. I've always thought I was an above average dog trainer (certainly not on a professional level though), and I thought a Border Collie would be relatively quick and easy for me to train since they're known to be so intelligent. BIG MISTAKE!!! :lol:

 

Teresa just pretty much described Mancer to a T. What's killing me is that I can't have moment to myself. I can't turn my back or stop paying attention to her for 5 seconds or she's into something. Unless I put her in the crate which I don't like doing. And yes she is quite mouthy. Many times when I tell her "no" she listens nicely, but many other times, she boisterously barks back at me as if telling me to shut the heck up, or just generally challenging my authority. When I force the issue, she does succumb, but never without trying to get the last word in, with a low voiced moan, or sometimes even a snap of the jaws in my general direction. I guess the most frustrating thing is having to keep telling her no over the same things over and over again, within seconds of just having told her no. But it is what it is and I Just have to deal with it, and we will be fine. It does feel good to vent every now and then though, so thanks for listening!

 

 

You want an x-pen, not just a crate. Trust me on this. I have one each for our two hellions. In fact, get two for your girl if you want to confine her into a larger area. Don't give her free run of the house unsupervised. Also, if at all possible, give her an area in your yard that's just hers. I have 5 dogs, including the pups, and they have a dedicated dog yard. The pups get times of the day when they are are free to dig holes, dismantle pine cones, gnaw chewies, whatever. I do keep an eye on them, but they get to entertain themselves for a while.

 

BTW, you are not the first person to be overwhelmed by the intelligence of a border collie! The thing people don't take into account is that they are thinking even when we aren't. :rolleyes:

 

As for mouthiness, right now my preferred tactic is primitive but highly effective. My secret? The cardboard tube out of a roll of paper towels. When one of my little dudes is going piranha, whether on me or each other, I just pick up the cardboard tube, give a little tap and growl a firm, "NO, leave it." I'm not whacking them like with a rolled-up newspaper, it's literally just a tap - but the hollow bonking noise is very effective. Any more I don't have to even get out of my chair, I can just show the tube and they settle down. "Settle" is an actual command, as well. It just means "play more quietly."

 

Also, if you don't have enough chewy toys, go buy several. My guys have a toy box full of Nylabones, fake antlers, bacon-flavored chewy things, rubber Kongs, rubber toys and all sorts of stuff. My house looks like it's inhabited by manic 2-year-olds. But it definitely makes my life easier when the puppies have tons of toys to distract the with. If you have a Tractor Supply in your area, also look into a package of kneecaps. They're safer than rawhide or or those cooked bones.

 

Also - once again, get an x-pen. 36 inch height should be fine. Amazon delivers. :D

 

~ Gloria

 

 

 

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Great post, I too have a young 11 week BC. Where we will end up together is a fantastic journey. The important thing to note is that you are engaged and paying attention. I personally have learned a tremendous amount from reading training techniques from Susan Garrett. This after having dogs all my life. With love and attention coupled with intuitive operant learning, the curve can indeed move along rapidly even with young puppies.

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Thanks for all the great info folks. I really do appreciate it. Yes I already have an x-pen, and I'll probably be ordering more in the near future. And she does have a bunch of chew toys, but I'll be continually ordering more of them as well.

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Rush Fan, sounds like you're doing great. A hint about the toys. Having a bunch is a wonderful idea. Rotate them.

 

Leave out a half dozen or so for her to play with. Switch them out every now and then, so she's always got a couple 'new' ones to keep her interested.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Gloria, thanks for the reminder about kneecaps!

 

Ruth and Gibbs

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I don't think the subject of rest and time-out has come up yet on this thread. One of the most important things you can teach and encourage any border collie is to chill, this is where the crate and x-pen come in. Play with your puppy, do a little training and then when you need to do your own stuff into the safe place they go, with toys to play with and kongs to chew.

The best advice I read when I got my first border collie who was an adult of unknown age was that you get the border collie you create, so if you play with your dog all day long, long walks two times a day etc, that's the dog you will be living with. Border collies really don't need excessive exercise, they just need company and mental stimulation.

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Many times when I tell her "no" she listens nicely, but many other times, she boisterously barks back at me as if telling me to shut the heck up, or just generally challenging my authority.

 

I generally try to discourage this kind of mindset. I really don't think it's helpful to think of a dog as stubborn or challenging your authority, especially when she's still just a puppy. Not only is it probably misguided (it's more likely the puppy really just doesn't understand what you want), but it can lead to a very adversarial and/or mistrustful relationship between you and your dog.

 

There are other ways of interpreting the behavior you cite here. One is that she's just doing what she would do in her litter, which had worked for her in that situation, but doesn't understand that it's not appropriate to do with you. Another is that you may be coming on too strong with her in your corrections and she feels she needs to defend herself from what she perceives as threats from you.

 

Or, as has already been pointed out, she may just be over tired when this happens and needs to be put down for a nap, just like a toddler having a tantrum. If she's truly trying out behaviors to see what works, the worst thing you can do is engage her in a battle of wills. The answer is the same. Don't fight back with her. Instead, just scoop her up and give her a time out in her crate. What she really wants from you is your attention, so if you take that away from her she should settle down. That's when she can have your attention back, not when she's being bratty.

 

You might want to take a look at the topic Recall + Loose Leash (http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=40023&hl=) where many people tried to caution the OP about the potential problems that thinking a puppy is "stubborn" can create.

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Many times when I tell her "no" she listens nicely, but many other times, she boisterously barks back at me as if telling me to shut the heck up, or just generally challenging my authority. When I force the issue, she does succumb, but never without trying to get the last word in, with a low voiced moan, or sometimes even a snap of the jaws in my general direction. I guess the most frustrating thing is having to keep telling her no over the same things over and over again, within seconds of just having told her no.

 

The other thing is, a "No" is not that helpful. It just means stop. It doesn't tell her what to do instead. She may be frustrated, or confused about hwhat to stop doing, or just really amped up and incapable of thinking it out.

 

Try to teach her "this, not that" instead. Shes ripping up grass? Instead of just saying no stop that give her a different toy and wiggle it around so its enticing. She's tearing up something she shouldn't have? Bring her a toy and swap them out, chew this up instead. Shes barking at something? Interrupt her and then focus her on something else, like a sit or down for a reward. Shes jumping up for pets? Have her sit to get the pets and ignore her until it stops.

 

Fill the void with what she should do instead. If you set yourself up for confrontation then you lose the opportunity to teach her cooperation and teamwork. Border Collies *excel* at teamwork. Gibe her an opportunity to work with you instead of against you and you will be amazed.

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I actually think a "no" is very helpful. Yes it just means stop. That is what I want when I say "no"...

Of course giving them something do do directly after that no is the smart thing to do, as a reward for the stopping and a distraction from going back to do whatever I didn't want it to do.

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The usefulness of no is going to vary. I discovered very quickly that it frustrates Molly, badly enough that it's useless. "No" and she stops but she also frustration barks and her brain falls out a little. Telll her what to do without the intermediary 'no' and she just... does the other thing and in doing the other thing stops what I didn't want ANYWAY. There's just no gap where she's frustrated and barking at me because WHAT DO I WANT.

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The other thing is, a "No" is not that helpful. It just means stop. It doesn't tell her what to do instead. She may be frustrated, or confused about hwhat to stop doing, or just really amped up and incapable of thinking it out.

 

Try to teach her "this, not that" instead. Shes ripping up grass? Instead of just saying no stop that give her a different toy and wiggle it around so its enticing. She's tearing up something she shouldn't have? Bring her a toy and swap them out, chew this up instead. Shes barking at something? Interrupt her and then focus her on something else, like a sit or down for a reward. Shes jumping up for pets? Have her sit to get the pets and ignore her until it stops.

 

Fill the void with what she should do instead. If you set yourself up for confrontation then you lose the opportunity to teach her cooperation and teamwork. Border Collies *excel* at teamwork. Gibe her an opportunity to work with you instead of against you and you will be amazed.

 

 

I do use "No" in the same sense as "leave it." It just means, whatever you're doing, knock it off and go somewhere else.

 

But I am a HUGE fan of diverting exuberance or play behaviors as well. Just moments ago I found my girl puppy in her favorite chair (she's allowed in that chair) but my hubby had left his Carhartt vest on it ... so there she was, just lying there having a wee nibble! :P Immediately I told her, "No," took the vest and and gave her a chewy toy to gnaw on instead. So I do a lot of giving her something else to do or chew, if she is into the wrong thing.

 

I definitely believe in diverting them into a replacement behavior or activity whenever possible.

 

 

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I don't think the subject of rest and time-out has come up yet on this thread. One of the most important things you can teach and encourage any border collie is to chill, this is where the crate and x-pen come in. Play with your puppy, do a little training and then when you need to do your own stuff into the safe place they go, with toys to play with and kongs to chew.

The best advice I read when I got my first border collie who was an adult of unknown age was that you get the border collie you create, so if you play with your dog all day long, long walks two times a day etc, that's the dog you will be living with. Border collies really don't need excessive exercise, they just need company and mental stimulation.

 

 

This. Times a billionty. A border collie who can't chill out by himself is going to drive his owner absolutely nuts. :ph34r: They grow up to be whatever you allow.

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I actually think a "no" is very helpful. Yes it just means stop. That is what I want when I say "no"...

Of course giving them something do do directly after that no is the smart thing to do, as a reward for the stopping and a distraction from going back to do whatever I didn't want it to do.

 

If you notice I suggested don't *just* say no, because its only partial information.

 

So No, stop that, do this instead. Especially puppies. My adult dogs understand that no means stop, and move on to something else. but as a young pup if all they hear is No No No it typically isn't that helpful.

 

Its easier to train a dog to do stuff than to not do something, imo.

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I actually am not fond of saying "no" to a young puppy. I use "uh-oh" instead, and this is just a personal preference, but for a good reason. I can, if sufficiently frustrated with the puppy's antics, end up coming close to hollering the "no". But "uh-oh" is so much milder, that it is much, much less likely to come out sounding harsh, even if I am tired. The point of saying anything at all is just to get the pup's attention, really, and to say "not that", rather than to scold. And of course, it is immediately followed by showing the dog what to do instead.

I generally try to discourage this kind of mindset. I really don't think it's helpful to think of a dog as stubborn or challenging your authority, especially when she's still just a puppy. Not only is it probably misguided (it's more likely the puppy really just doesn't understand what you want), but it can lead to a very adversarial and/or mistrustful relationship between you and your dog.

 

There are other ways of interpreting the behavior you cite here. One is that she's just doing what she would do in her litter, which had worked for her in that situation, but doesn't understand that it's not appropriate to do with you. Another is that you may be coming on too strong with her in your corrections and she feels she needs to defend herself from what she perceives as threats from you.

 

Or, as has already been pointed out, she may just be over tired when this happens and needs to be put down for a nap, just like a toddler having a tantrum. If she's truly trying out behaviors to see what works, the worst thing you can do is engage her in a battle of wills. The answer is the same. Don't fight back with her. Instead, just scoop her up and give her a time out in her crate. What she really wants from you is your attention, so if you take that away from her she should settle down. That's when she can have your attention back, not when she's being bratty.

 

You might want to take a look at the topic Recall + Loose Leash (http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=40023&hl=) where many people tried to caution the OP about the potential problems that thinking a puppy is "stubborn" can create.

 

And, I strongly second everything that Gentle Lake said here.

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I tend to use "Oi". It is a sound that can be used with a gentle tone and drawn out a bit, or with a bit of a growl, or as a loud abrupt rebuke. So I can increase the emphasis of the verbal rebuke as required by tone, volume etc.

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Thanks for all the help guys. Keep it coming. I have a hard time buying into all of it, but I won't stop trying. Getting her to change focus from something "bad" to something "good" is not nearly as possible as you all make it sound. Once she fixates on something it's tough to get her to change her focus. (I won't use the S word though! ^_^). Last night when I was walking her and she decided she wanted to play tug on the leash I pulled a toy out of my pocket and offered it to her but she only held it in her mouth for a second then she dropped it and went right back to the leash. I kept trying, but she was having none of it. This happens often at home too. She does listen to me sometimes... the command she seems to respond to most effectively is "get out of there" (essentially my version of your "leave it").

 

I am feeling much better after seeing many of your comments though, knowing that most of what I'm dealing with is "normal". Special thanks to the people talking about conditioning her for the future. I'll have to make it a point to crate or x-pen her a couple times a day on weekends to give myself some down time. I kind of feel guilty doing this, but I'm surely not going to be able to give her my full attention 100% of the time for the rest of her life so I guess I need to do this now. I was kind of under the impression that a border collie would respond badly to being penned up. It's good to know that isn't necessarily the case. She'll still get her daily 30-45 minute walk (weather permitting of course) for sure and some fetch/running at least most if not every day. It's nice having a large enough basement to play extra fetch on rainy days when I can't walk her to make sure she still gets some exercise.

 

At this point she doesn't seem keen on much "mental stimulation". I have taught her a few things, but she doesn't seem to enjoy it much at all. She's still very young though, so hopefully this will change, and I'll absolutely keep trying as she gets older. I love working with dogs mentally so I really hope she comes around at some point.

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The NO :

 

I also will try to use a softer voice and either an uh-oh or hay or oi for a pup - mainly to distract. I try and save the NO (said very loudly) for major infractions or major danger once they are a bit older. I want them to know that a NO means stop immediately, I am really pissed at you or you are about to get yourself killed. (OK, slight exaggeration for illustrative purposes.

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What part are you "having a hard time buying into"?

 

Mostly the thing about getting her to chew on a toy instead of something I don't want her to chew on. She seems to get bored with her toys very quickly, unless I'm playing with the toy with her. As soon as I stop paying attention to her she's done with the toy and into something bad.

 

I also have a hard time believing she isn't challenging my authority at times. I do tend to elevate my voice too often, so maybe that's a big part of the problem. I can't help getting frustrated sometimes though, and raising my voice actually does make her stop in her tracks and listen sometimes. I've been trying not to yell as much, but she still barks back at me sometimes even when I just try to gently correct her. I just really get the impression she doesn't like me telling her not to do things she wants to do, and feels the urge to voice her displeasure. I definitely don't think we have major problem or anything as it isn't like she does it constantly.

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The reality of the situation is this:

Training dogs is about building relationship and communication.

You have, effectively, both a puppy - so immature animal that will BE immature for another 2 years or so, so very, very immature - limited relationship because of duration, and limited communication both because she does not yet have the training OR relationship in place.

 

You need to a-) Prevent more misbehavior. That means, yes, crate. at this age she should have NO OPPORTUNITY to chew on something inappropriate in your house. The leash thing is different, but.

 

b-) play with her. Actively play with her. This will build relationship and communication. That means don't HAND Her the toy, play with the toy with her.

 

c-) work on training foundations. If you can tell her to sit, or stay, or come, or leave it you have enough control to call her out of or off things like chewing the couch or leash. That is her ticket to more time out of the crate without you directly interacting with her. And also, hey, no more reason to yell.

 

I promise you that at the very most she's 'yelling' either simply because she wants you to play with her, she is frustrated because she doesn't get the problem, doesn't understand what you want, or you aren't understanding what SHE is communicating, or just that she simply doesn't want to stop/was having fun. This is no moe a challenge to your authority than a 2 year old tantruming because they don't want to take a nap is trying to usurp the authority of the parent. Pick her up, put her in a crate, walk away. Or remove the inappropriate item and carry on.

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