ABCA vs. AKC Registration Question

[Ross Bash]

Hello to all --

 

First, let me say how much I enjoy and benefit from all I've learned reading posts on BC Boards since I became a member a few months ago ("newbie" is a bit of an understatement in my case).

 

I think the context of my question is important, so I hope you'll take the time to read and consider this (long) summary:

 

We (my wife and I) have two young Border Collies. The older one (named Uri, a male, 17 months old) is ABCA -- which we did purposefully as I recall the breeder giving us the choice of having his papers sent into either ABCA or AKC. We chose ABCA because we support the ABCA's efforts to maintain and preserve the working ability of Border Collies (Donald McCaig's "Dog Wars" was very influential in our thinking). His training to date has been more limited than I'd like by reason of lack of ready access both to sheep and to an instructor (instruction as much if not more for me than for him). The closest trainers I've found are 100 and 150 miles away and both are with the AHBA; that said, I've been pretty happy with the instruction we've gotten (Uri has shown good ability; I'm lower and slower on the learning curve compared to him) and we're close to solving the lack of ready access to sheep provided time and weather cooperate for me to get all the fence in and a shelter of sorts up. My interest is grounded both in love of the breed and an enjoyment and appreciation of working with livestock; trialing, even as a potential, is way down my priorities list, except as an adjunct to developing and having a good working dog and ready opportunities for him to do the kind of work for which he's bred.

 

Shortly after we got Uri, we "inherited" a female Border Collie pup (named Maya, now 11 months) after our daughter's in-laws who had bought her found they couldn't care for her adequately and were simply going to take her to the pound. We've adopted a lot of dogs over the years (rescued dogs, shelter dogs, abandoned dogs, etc.), so (naturally) Maya came to live with us and fits right in (notwithstanding her toothing stage that cost me only half a pair of shoes, several socks, one wallet -- still useable though -- and a few "love marks" on some furniture; she learns readily though and really wants to please, and we've always treated this kind of thing as teachable moments with pups).

 

Maya's papers from the breeder (never sent in) are with AKC and it's some sort of special AKC registration that requires her to be neutered before being registered. I'm assuming (not being familiar with AKC rules) that this is a "price" thing; that is, the in-laws who bought her from the breeder paid a lower price for her because of the restriction and would have had to pay more to the breeder without the restriction. I gather from the breeder's website that she is exclusively AKC and breeds for shows (i.e., appearance and conformation). Given that I did not deal with the breeder or make any agreement about neutering the pup, I've not had her neutered (yet) nor have I sent in her papers to AKC with the special registration (so I guess she's in a form of AKC dog "limbo").

 

Given that ABCA's rules for qualifying a dog not out of ABCA parents for registration are stringent, I recognize that the odds of qualifying Maya are slim, but I wanted to see what kind of interest in sheep and herding potential she had before neutering her (given its finality as much for dogs as for people!). She's now been exposed twice to sheep and had opportunity to work in a very controlled way, and she shows potential and a lot of interest (watching other dogs actually working before her probably helped). Another trainer there at the time also told me that AKC has an open registration policy so I could also register Uri (the older male) with AKC, so both pups could be AKC registered if I can persuade Maya's breeder to lift the restriction about neutering (which, again, I suspect is just a matter of price; if not, then the question is pretty much moot).

 

You may have gathered by now that we have an interest in possibly breeding Uri and Maya at some point (we successfully got through Maya's first heat without any "domestic blessing!"), but we're not set on it by any measure -- we're in a holding pattern -- bottom line is whether their pups would have the potential of being good working dogs and meet the health standards for the breed (eyes, hips, etc.). If it shouldn't or doesn't happen, then so be it -- we just want to make the right decision, at the right time, for the right reasons.

 

So here are my questions for your advice and insight:

(1) How realistic is it for a Border Collie to be ABCA registered through ABCA's qualifying process?

(2) If it is possible (realistically), what should I do to allow Maya a fair chance at it (e.g., send her to an experienced trainer so she will be prepared to take her best shot at the required trials)?

(3) Should I even consider AKC registration for Uri (assuming that Maya can be AKC registered without the restriction; otherwise it becomes a moot question)? Related ??: Does that have any adverse effect on his standing with ABCA? Does it work against (or somehow show disloyalty to) ABCA's efforts to protect the breed (keeping in mind that I've never even been to a dog show; the likelihood of my ever having or using a dog for show purposes is the equivalent of my growing three heads or six thumbs...)? Are AKC registered dogs frowned on or shunned by ABCA folks (or even allowed to compete in ABCA trials should we ever want to give it a try)?

(4) More general question: Given that AHBA folks seem to have a stronger connection to AKC, am I doing a disservice to Uri and Maya by taking advantage of the AHBA clinics (and the instructor I've been using) since that seems to be what's available (primarily if not exclusively) within any reasonable distance?

 

If I've missed any question(s) that I should be asking, please don't hesitate to throw it into the mix.

 

Thanks.

Ross Bash

Why Timid Familes Shouldn\'t Have Border ColliesDoc2.doc

[border_collie_crazy]

in general with show breeder, the limited regitration is not about price, its about pet quality vs show quality, if this pup was sold on limited reg. then that mean she is not a show quality pup and the breeder does not want her bred from and representing her lines.

[Sue R]

First, have you read the "Read this first" at the top of the General Section index page? Here is the link. I think that should answer some of your questions.

 

The likelihood of *both* of your dogs being of enough quality (working ability and *all* that entails) to merit breeding is probably not very high. The likelihood of your two dogs being a good breeding match is much, much lower - because, even if a dog and a bitch are both good animals, that alone does not make a cross between them a wise breeding decision. A lot needs to be considered when choosing a breeding pair's compatibility and potential to produce quality working pups.

 

In addition, with your being very new to the world of working Border Collies, and your limitations on being able to get quality training (I would never consider an AHBA-oriented trainer to be a sufficient determiner of a Border Collie's quality or potential - nothing less than a successful USBCHA Open-level handler with experience under his/her belt would be my choice) or experience at this point in time (and, I would think, the near future), I sincerely doubt that you would be in any position to realize your dogs' true potential - and true shortcomings.

 

I do know there seem to be some folks in Ohio who put on clinics with some very worthwhile clinicians, even though I don't think the emphasis is on Border Collies or USBCHA trialing as they seem to be hosted by people more into AKC and/or AHBA. However, some very good clinicians have done clinics in that area. Elvin Kopp may be doing a clinic in eastern or southeastern Ohio towards the end of February. I think he is an excellent instructor and communicator. If you are interested, I can give you some contact information.

 

ABCA's Register on Merit is rigorous, as it should be.

 

I guess I have to ask, why are you interested in breeding (or potential breeding) at this point in your Border Collie experience? Is it just because you have a dog and a bitch, and you like them both? I think that is little reason to keep two animals intact "just in case". That's probably because my feelings are to leave the breedings to the experts, those with years of experience with many dogs and different livestock, who trial or prove their dogs extensively (and make sure they only do outside breedings with similarly-proven animals), and who have a knowledge and understanding of breeding as an art as well as a science.

 

In other words, I don't really think that breeding is for novices. I hope you agree.

[bc soul sista]

I'm sure many others on this board will have much knowledgable advice to give....but to keep it basic...spay the female, nueter your male and emjoy them as loving pets/partners in learning about the awesomeness that working stock with your dogs. There are TO MANY people making puppies out there and it doesn't sound like you have the experience or knowledge base to know whether these two dogs have much talent on stock at all.

 

Just because you bought your male from an ABCA breeder does not mean the dog has talent on stock and should be bred...and chances are if this female an AKC breeder, who breeds mostly for conformation, she has little to no natural talent and should definetly not be bred!!

 

There really is no point to registering with the AKC un-less you wanted to run your dogs in AKC trials...or register puppies..

 

I would say if you were absolutely SET on breeding this female, train her up and put her through what needs to be done to get Registered on Merit with the ABCA...only then should you consider it.

 

I have been running dogs in trials for a couple years now and have un-nuetered dogs whom I could breed....but I just as soon leave that up to the experts. The breeders who have researched there lines, know all the health concerns, put the time and effort into protecting there lines, and have the knowledge base to determine who should be bred....

[Ross Bash]

in general with show breeder, the limited regitration is not about price, its about pet quality vs show quality, if this pup was sold on limited reg. then that mean she is not a show quality pup and the breeder does not want her bred from and representing her lines.

 

That's helpful. If/when I contact the breeder, I'm sure that's a question she'll answer regarding this pup. Thanks.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi Ross ~

 

Your furry little family members are so cute! I'm glad you've given Maya a second chance - poor thing, to imagine her in the pound!

 

I can only answer a couple of your questions, but here goes.

 

One, ABCA does not host sheepdog trials. The USBCHA does that, and they have no restrictions on what dogs enter their trials. If the dog can do the work, he's in.

 

ABCA is just a registry, and other folks can tell you more about that. However, I think to register a previously unrecorded dog, your dog has to go through a Registry of Merit (ROM) proceeding, and I think those qualifications are pretty strict.

Edit: here's a link to info about the ROM process:

http://www.americanbordercollie.org/ROM.htm

 

As for AHBA, I run my dogs in AHBA, myself! That's what we have locally and I actually enjoy the ranch trials. So, if you feel your local AHBA trainer is doing a good job with/for your dogs, and if you are comfortable with their methods, I see no harm in it. That's where I started, myself.

 

About AKC, though ... why would you want to register Maya with them, at all? Unless you plan to run her in AKC arena trials, there's no need. And frankly, I won't give AKC a dime of my money. Their little arena trials are silly and the AKC judges seem mostly like to reward cranked-down dogs who do nothing but pitter-pat around behind dog-broke sheep. They do have a "B" course, which is basically a scaled-down field course, but you very seldom see that used.

 

Lastly, as for breeding your dogs ... the question I think any prospective breeder should ask is, "Am I improving the breed?"

 

If you do your research and train your dogs, if you know they come from strong working bloodlines and they themselves show good quality, if they can demonstrate the best of the working border collie's heritage and turn in a solid day's work, and if you truly think you have something special to offer the border collie world, then - and only then - breed.

 

But if it's just because you love your dogs and you think they are nice and maybe you enjoy working them on sheep ... that is not enough. There are a lot of "nice" dogs out there, but not all of them should be making more of themselves.

 

Not to mention, you'll then be faced with trying to find homes for the pups, and what kind of people would be looking for puppies out of an AKC show bitch and an unknown ABCA dog? You don't want to water-down the border collie breed by creating pet-quality puppies.

 

So, I'd say have fun training and trialing in AHBA, enjoy yourself and enjoy your dogs. It's a marvelous journey to be on! But there's nothing to be gained, in my opinion, by having one thing to do with AKC. They do NOT help the working dog, and registering Maya with them won't benefit her much of anything, either. Not unless you plan to sell AKC-registered puppies ...

 

~ Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

P.S.

From the ROM qualifications I linked, above:

 

"II. Working Qualifications (One or the other of these options must be met.)

 

A. Written proof that the dog seeking registration on merit has placed in the top 10% of three open, advertised National style and size trials judged under ISDS or USBCHA rules.

 

B. To pass the working qualifications, the dog must demonstrate outstanding abilities in outrun, lift, fetch, driving, and must satisfy the Directors as to his good balance, power, and eye. At least three of the Directors must see the dog in person working livestock at a place other than his home on livestock that he is not used to. In the event that the distance required to meet with 3 Directors is considered unreasonable, a handler may apply to the Board to substitute 1 or 2 of the 3 Directors required to see the dog in person with qualified handlers satisfactory to the Board."

 

That is likely to be more than an AKC-bred bitch can do, sadly.

 

But honestly, you can enjoy your dogs and have fun with them, without ever breeding them!

 

~ Gloria

[Pam Wolf]

My questions run towards why do you want to breed these two particular dogs together? Do they add something that is missing from the majority of Border collies out there and is that something that is desirable and will improve the breed overall?

 

If the motivation is because a couple of friends say they want pups-well don't count on it, even IF they pay a deposit-people often back out when the pup reaches 8 weeks of age.

 

If the reason is to make money think again!!!! The only way to make money off breeding is to either keep the costs down, providing no health checks and no health care plus feeding cheap dog food or to produce large numbers of litters(another way of saying puppy mill more often or not)OR train your dogs to a high degree and have a long list of potential buyers so that those who back out won't matter.

 

Before breeding a border collie, it should be proven on stock, not just a few lessons. The true merit of a dog cannot be seen in a few lessons on what most likely is 'school sheep'. Then the mating should be with a dog that compliments the strong traits and strenghtens the weak ones. This requires an eye for the merit of a dog and an honesty with oneself on the strenghts and weaknesses in your own dog.

 

Then there are health issues. Study the pedigree and see if there are any lines carrying major health issues known to the breed. TIf there is then do what you can about checking the health of both dogs with regard to the major issues.

 

As others have said, AKC is not about working Border Collies but rather pseudo border collie.

 

Enjoy your dogs, learn all you can about the working dogs and grow to enjoy the dogs as they are meant to be.

[Ross Bash]

First, have you read the "Read this first" at the top of the General Section index page? Here is the link. I think that should answer some of your questions.

 

The likelihood of *both* of your dogs being of enough quality (working ability and *all* that entails) to merit breeding is probably not very high. The likelihood of your two dogs being a good breeding match is much, much lower - because, even if a dog and a bitch are both good animals, that alone does not make a cross between them a wise breeding decision. A lot needs to be considered when choosing a breeding pair's compatibility and potential to produce quality working pups.

 

In addition, with your being very new to the world of working Border Collies, and your limitations on being able to get quality training (I would never consider an AHBA-oriented trainer to be a sufficient determiner of a Border Collie's quality or potential - nothing less than a successful USBCHA Open-level handler with experience under his/her belt would be my choice) or experience at this point in time (and, I would think, the near future), I sincerely doubt that you would be in any position to realize your dogs' true potential - and true shortcomings.

 

I do know there seem to be some folks in Ohio who put on clinics with some very worthwhile clinicians, even though I don't think the emphasis is on Border Collies or USBCHA trialing as they seem to be hosted by people more into AKC and/or AHBA. However, some very good clinicians have done clinics in that area. Elvin Kopp may be doing a clinic in eastern or southeastern Ohio towards the end of February. I think he is an excellent instructor and communicator. If you are interested, I can give you some contact information.

 

ABCA's Register on Merit is rigorous, as it should be.

 

I guess I have to ask, why are you interested in breeding (or potential breeding) at this point in your Border Collie experience? Is it just because you have a dog and a bitch, and you like them both? I think that is little reason to keep two animals intact "just in case". That's probably because my feelings are to leave the breedings to the experts, those with years of experience with many dogs and different livestock, who trial or prove their dogs extensively (and make sure they only do outside breedings with similarly-proven animals), and who have a knowledge and understanding of breeding as a art as well as a science.

 

In other words, I don't really think that breeding is for novices. I hope you agree.

 

 

Sue --

 

Thanks for your response -- also helpful as was the first response.

 

Let me answer your last last point first -- while I agree that breeding should only be for responsible purposes (working ability in the case of Border Collies), I don't agree that it's only "experts" who get to decide; that said; it's not a decision that we would even consider making on our own without getting (and acting on) the best "expert" and experienced advice we could because to do otherwise would be very irresponsible. I view these forums as a ready means of asking these initial kinds of questions so that, with the advice shared in response, both the questions and the possible choices become better informed and even more responsible.

 

On your next to last questions, our thinking about (possibly) breeding Uri and Maya does, of course, reflect the fact that we like them both (hard not to like them), but underline the "possibly" -- that's not only not a good reason to do it, but it's not a reason on which we would even consider doing it. Your first paragraph summarizes exactly the kind of considerations that I'm thinking about. One of the reasons I did the post was to invite the kind of feedback you've provided so I would know better whether my own thinking about it was on target or not. The question is still open as to whether one or both of them have the working ability and/or the potential to produce pups of good working ability; while a "no" answer to either part of that question settles the breeding question, I'd rather ask the questions and try to answer them (rather than simply assuming the answer is "no") before making a decision about neutering Maya. As far as their compatibility, I can't speak for Maya's hormones when she had her first heat, but there was no lack of interest (or hormones) on Uri's part. Fortunately, we're in a position to have taken all of the precautions we needed to take to preclude any "blessed event" during her first heat, nor am I of a mind to allow even the possibility of that repeatedly; again, that wouldn't be responsible (much less fair to the dogs). But given the finality of neutering Maya (which is something we've done with all of our dogs over the years, never before having had a dog of Uri's apparent potential as far as working ability), I would rather raise and get the answer to the question about Maya's potential in the regards you correctly note before concluding that she's lacking that potential. I think your advice about making that determination through a USBCHA open-level experienced handler is especially sound; I didn't realize that there would be that degree of difference as compared to ABHA handlers. I did go to one clinic in Ohio in which I'm pretty sure the clinician was USBCHA (supposedly had an outstanding reputation as a handler and clinician), but I left in mid-morning because of how he treated several of the dogs (dragged one dog by its lead to the top of the fence; fortunately, the dog only bit through its lip, but I don't think hurting or abusing a dog, especially in drawing blood, shows good training or handling techniques; if that's what characterizes a good handler, then I'll never qualify or measure up). I do appreciate the information about Evelyn Kopp though and will follow it up if you'll send the contact information (didn't see anything posted yet on BC Boards).

 

In fact, I did read the "Read This First" information when I first joined the BC Boards and before I did my first (and only prior) post. I didn't re-read it, however, before this post and had forgotten the parts you note. It's pretty clear about the ABCA's position on AKC registered dogs, so thanks for drawing it to my attention again. I also agree with you that the ABCA's "Register on Merit" should be rigorous; that doesn't preclude me from hoping, however vain the hope may ultimately prove to be, that Maya could have that kind of quality and ability -- an open question at the moment -- but if she doesn't have it, then I read your response to be that the AKC route is not a good alternative for either Uri and Maya.

 

Appreciate your taking the time for such a considered and informative response.

 

Thanks.

Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

in general with show breeder, the limited regitration is not about price, its about pet quality vs show quality, if this pup was sold on limited reg. then that mean she is not a show quality pup and the breeder does not want her bred from and representing her lines.

 

 

Not sure my reply to your reply posted (don't think it did), but your response was helpful and that's something that I'll be sure to ask Maya's breeder if/when I contact her. Thanks. Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

I'm sure many others on this board will have much knowledgable advice to give....but to keep it basic...spay the female, nueter your male and emjoy them as loving pets/partners in learning about the awesomeness that working stock with your dogs. There are TO MANY people making puppies out there and it doesn't sound like you have the experience or knowledge base to know whether these two dogs have much talent on stock at all.

 

Just because you bought your male from an ABCA breeder does not mean the dog has talent on stock and should be bred...and chances are if this female an AKC breeder, who breeds mostly for conformation, she has little to no natural talent and should definetly not be bred!!

 

There really is no point to registering with the AKC un-less you wanted to run your dogs in AKC trials...or register puppies..

 

I would say if you were absolutely SET on breeding this female, train her up and put her through what needs to be done to get Registered on Merit with the ABCA...only then should you consider it.

 

I have been running dogs in trials for a couple years now and have un-nuetered dogs whom I could breed....but I just as soon leave that up to the experts. The breeders who have researched there lines, know all the health concerns, put the time and effort into protecting there lines, and have the knowledge base to determine who should be bred....

 

 

Soul Sista' (that's a great handle by the way!)

 

WOW! By the number of responses my post has already generated, all of you folks must have had as much snow last night as we did and are fixated on your computers this afternoon with nothing better to do!

 

Won't respond to every point you raise since I agree with almost everything you said and also covered many of the same points in responding to Sue R.'s reply.

 

I'm not set on breeding either Uri or Maya -- more the opposite (having spawned three kids of my own, and also having four grandchildren so far, all of whom, fortunately (credit to their mother/grandmother rather than me!) have turned out/are turning out to be pretty good individuals so far). Just don't want to make the wrong decision prematurely.

 

Thanks.

Ross Bash

[Sue R]

By "compatibility", I wasn't meaning if the two of them were "ready, willing, and able" - I meant that they are both the sort of dog/bitch that compliments the other in terms of being a good breeding pair. You can have two top animals but that doesn't mean they are a good pair for breeding, as one or more others have pointed out. And whether or not they are interested is another issue.

 

And there are many times a person with less experience has, under the guidance of a true expert, bred a dog or bitch to produce an excellent litter. Beware of "experts", though - some are merely legends in their own mind.

 

I guess I am naturally put off by novices who's thoughts are already on breeding (or potentially breeding) their animals - I like to see someone have done more than dip their toes into an endeavor before they even start thinking about breeding. That's my opinion.

 

Remember also that no matter how careful or convinced you are that your dogs are breeding material, every pup that you place in someone else's hands is no longer under your control. And no matter how sure you are that so-and-so will provide a good home, millions of dogs in shelters and rescue each year prove that many, many situations do not work out for one reason or another. Or, would you be willing to take back any pup, at any time or age, that was not suited to its new home or whose new home was not suited to it? Those are pretty sobering thoughts, at least to me (and I don't breed, don't plan to ever breed, and all my dogs in recent years have been neutered).

 

I hate to be a wet blanket but that's the kind of person I am.

[Ross Bash]

By "compatibility", I wasn't meaning if the two of them were "ready, willing, and able" - I meant that they are both the sort of dog/bitch that compliments the other in terms of being a good breeding pair. You can have two top animals but that doesn't mean they are a good pair for breeding, as one or more others have pointed out. And whether or not they are interested is another issue.

 

And there are many times a person with less experience has, under the guidance of a true expert, bred a dog or bitch to produce an excellent litter. Beware of "experts", though - some are merely legends in their own mind.

 

I guess I am naturally put off by novices who's thoughts are already on breeding (or potentially breeding) their animals - I like to see someone have done more than dip their toes into an endeavor before they even start thinking about breeding. That's my opinion.

 

Remember also that no matter how careful or convinced you are that your dogs are breeding material, every pup that you place in someone else's hands is no longer under your control. And no matter how sure you are that so-and-so will provide a good home, millions of dogs in shelters and rescue each year prove that many, many situations do not work out for one reason or another. Or, would you be willing to take back any pup, at any time or age, that was not suited to its new home or whose new home was not suited to it? Those are pretty sobering thoughts, at least to me (and I don't breed, don't plan to ever breed, and all my dogs in recent years have been neutered).

 

I hate to be a wet blanket but that's the kind of person I am.

 

 

Sue --

 

Given that this is my third reply to you, we have to stop communicating this way!

 

I knew what you meant by "compatibility" -- just being a bit facetious in my response. If "ready, willing and able" were the criteria, I would probably have more descendants than Genghis Khan (who is said to have populated most of Asia and half of eastern Europe) -- although my "ready" and "able" parts are rapidly succumbing to the inevitable march of time...

 

I agree with you on real vs. pseudo-experts. The problem is identifying the real experts -- my experience is that the Border Collie field (and especially a lot of those doing trialing) has more than its share of self-identified "experts" (sort of "legends in their own minds"). I hope though that you've not placed me in the "toe-dipping" novice category; novice I may be, and I've also done my share of toe-dipping before jumping into some things, but caring for living things -- whether people or animals (what my wife rightly calls our "creatureliness"), although I draw the line at protecting the stink bugs with which we've been plagued this year -- is something I approach deliberately, thoughtfully and responsibly; that should hold as well for bringing new life into the world, whether breeding people or breeding Border Collies.

 

You're also right about placing pups into other people's hands. Steinbeck has a passage in "Travels with Charley" (a great read by the way if you haven't read it) where he sees a coyote in the distance watching him. He takes out a rifle to shoot it (thinking that he should help the ranchers get rid of such vermin), but then reflects before he shoots that he's far from any ranch and the coyote isn't bothering anybody. He recalls the adage (Buddhist?) that once we've interfered in the normal course of somebody's or something's life, we have a responsibility for that life so, instead of shooting it, he opens a can of Charley's dog food, leaves it in a dish for the coyote, and drives on. Breeding dogs, and the new life they bring into the world, is that kind of responsibility in my mind.

 

I'd hardly consider you to be a "wet blanket," but (at the risk of being too forward), you sound like a person who blankets your Border Collies with deserving warmth and care.

 

Thanks, again.

Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

P.S.

From the ROM qualifications I linked, above:

 

"II. Working Qualifications (One or the other of these options must be met.)

 

A. Written proof that the dog seeking registration on merit has placed in the top 10% of three open, advertised National style and size trials judged under ISDS or USBCHA rules.

 

B. To pass the working qualifications, the dog must demonstrate outstanding abilities in outrun, lift, fetch, driving, and must satisfy the Directors as to his good balance, power, and eye. At least three of the Directors must see the dog in person working livestock at a place other than his home on livestock that he is not used to. In the event that the distance required to meet with 3 Directors is considered unreasonable, a handler may apply to the Board to substitute 1 or 2 of the 3 Directors required to see the dog in person with qualified handlers satisfactory to the Board."

 

That is likely to be more than an AKC-bred bitch can do, sadly.

 

But honestly, you can enjoy your dogs and have fun with them, without ever breeding them!

 

~ Gloria

 

 

Gloria --

 

The ABCA standard you cite was the one I was referring to -- and in asking how realistic it is whether a dog like Maya (though she's, of course, a Super-Dog to me!) would ever be able to qualify; the wonderful thing about hope is that, until reality proves otherwise, we can hold on to it. But if she only proves to be a good working dog (and even if she doesn't), then she'll still be a Super-Dog to me -- and that holds even if she never qualifies with the ABCA standard and thus shouldn't be bred (nor am I assuming that just meeting the ABCA standard would justify breeding her).

 

The "enjoy your dogs and have fun with them" part we already have down pat! They both even put up good naturedly with my ineptitude at handling when we go to clinics or take a lesson...

 

Appreciated your response.

 

Thanks.

Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

Hi Ross ~

 

Your furry little family members are so cute! I'm glad you've given Maya a second chance - poor thing, to imagine her in the pound!

 

I can only answer a couple of your questions, but here goes.

 

One, ABCA does not host sheepdog trials. The USBCHA does that, and they have no restrictions on what dogs enter their trials. If the dog can do the work, he's in.

 

ABCA is just a registry, and other folks can tell you more about that. However, I think to register a previously unrecorded dog, your dog has to go through a Registry of Merit (ROM) proceeding, and I think those qualifications are pretty strict.

Edit: here's a link to info about the ROM process:

http://www.americanbordercollie.org/ROM.htm

 

As for AHBA, I run my dogs in AHBA, myself! That's what we have locally and I actually enjoy the ranch trials. So, if you feel your local AHBA trainer is doing a good job with/for your dogs, and if you are comfortable with their methods, I see no harm in it. That's where I started, myself.

 

About AKC, though ... why would you want to register Maya with them, at all? Unless you plan to run her in AKC arena trials, there's no need. And frankly, I won't give AKC a dime of my money. Their little arena trials are silly and the AKC judges seem mostly like to reward cranked-down dogs who do nothing but pitter-pat around behind dog-broke sheep. They do have a "B" course, which is basically a scaled-down field course, but you very seldom see that used.

 

Lastly, as for breeding your dogs ... the question I think any prospective breeder should ask is, "Am I improving the breed?"

 

If you do your research and train your dogs, if you know they come from strong working bloodlines and they themselves show good quality, if they can demonstrate the best of the working border collie's heritage and turn in a solid day's work, and if you truly think you have something special to offer the border collie world, then - and only then - breed.

 

But if it's just because you love your dogs and you think they are nice and maybe you enjoy working them on sheep ... that is not enough. There are a lot of "nice" dogs out there, but not all of them should be making more of themselves.

 

Not to mention, you'll then be faced with trying to find homes for the pups, and what kind of people would be looking for puppies out of an AKC show bitch and an unknown ABCA dog? You don't want to water-down the border collie breed by creating pet-quality puppies.

 

So, I'd say have fun training and trialing in AHBA, enjoy yourself and enjoy your dogs. It's a marvelous journey to be on! But there's nothing to be gained, in my opinion, by having one thing to do with AKC. They do NOT help the working dog, and registering Maya with them won't benefit her much of anything, either. Not unless you plan to sell AKC-registered puppies ...

 

~ Gloria

 

 

Gloria --

 

Responded by mistake to your second reply first.

 

We've had a number (lost count) of "second chance" dogs and cats over the years -- family pet cemetery in the backyard under a walnut tree is evidence of that -- a lot of joy and good memories rest there.

 

On your point about ABCA and USBCHA, I agree -- knew that, but since I get to the USBCHA page through the ABCA page, I tend to think of them as the same (though they're not).

 

Appreciate your feedback on enjoying and participating in AHBA activities when that's what's available -- sort of seems to be a regional thing -- more AHBA some places and USBCHA other places.

 

On having pups and finding homes, I won't repeat her what I replied to one of Sue R.'s responses, but it holds here as well.

 

Your responses were very helpful -- appreciate your taking the time and consideration in replying!

 

And, by the way, while Maya appreciated your comment about how cute she is (she is!), Uri's response was "Whatever..."!

 

Thanks, again.

Ross Bash

[Maralynn]

I don't think that you'll be missing anything by neutering your dogs. There are a lot of nice border collies out there.

 

My first dog had some nice natural talent. When I first took her for a lesson with a USBCHA open handler after 15 minutes of working with her he asked is she was still intact and did I have papers on her.

 

At the time she was still intact. But I did end up spaying her a few months later.

 

My first dog, I wanted to learn with her and enjoy her. I knew I could always find a great pup elsewhere bred by people who really know what they're doing.

 

I acquired my second dog intact as well. He is a nice working bred dog, ABCA registered with nice natural talent. I had him neutered at 2 y/o because I knew I probably wouldn't get him trained to the point where I'd feel comfortable with breeding him. I actually went on to do SAR with him and am now getting back into stockwork with him at 7 y/o. He's fun dog for me to work with - fast and lots of dog, but he learns and he's got natural talent. But I don't regret having him neutered. He's my buddy, I love working with him. That's far and away enough for me!

 

When I'm ready for another working dog, I'll just contact a breeder that know what they're doing in that department!

[Ross Bash]

My questions run towards why do you want to breed these two particular dogs together? Do they add something that is missing from the majority of Border collies out there and is that something that is desirable and will improve the breed overall?

 

If the motivation is because a couple of friends say they want pups-well don't count on it, even IF they pay a deposit-people often back out when the pup reaches 8 weeks of age.

 

If the reason is to make money think again!!!! The only way to make money off breeding is to either keep the costs down, providing no health checks and no health care plus feeding cheap dog food or to produce large numbers of litters(another way of saying puppy mill more often or not)OR train your dogs to a high degree and have a long list of potential buyers so that those who back out won't matter.

 

Before breeding a border collie, it should be proven on stock, not just a few lessons. The true merit of a dog cannot be seen in a few lessons on what most likely is 'school sheep'. Then the mating should be with a dog that compliments the strong traits and strenghtens the weak ones. This requires an eye for the merit of a dog and an honesty with oneself on the strenghts and weaknesses in your own dog.

 

Then there are health issues. Study the pedigree and see if there are any lines carrying major health issues known to the breed. TIf there is then do what you can about checking the health of both dogs with regard to the major issues.

 

As others have said, AKC is not about working Border Collies but rather pseudo border collie.

 

Enjoy your dogs, learn all you can about the working dogs and grow to enjoy the dogs as they are meant to be.

 

 

Pam --

 

Thanks for your reply!

 

If you peruse the replies I've sent to the several responses to my post (feel like I opened the proverbial "can of worms"!), I think I responded to the several points you raise. If, however, you see something I've missed, please be sure to point it out; that said, I agree with most everything you mention.

 

As far as breeding pups for friends or money, I've fed too many pups, dogs, cats, etc. over the years to see any profit in it, nor would I do it for friends (unless they also happened to be members of the ABCA who had lots of handling experience, wads of money, and an overwhelming desire for one of our pups!).

 

The "enjoy your dogs" part I have down pat (with Uri's and Maya's good and enthusiastic assistance!); the "learning all I can about working dogs" part is a steady work in progress; and the "grow to enjoy the dogs as they are meant to be" part is a continuing aspiration.

 

Appreciate your thoughtful and helpful advice.

 

Thanks, again.

Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

I don't think that you'll be missing anything by neutering your dogs. There are a lot of nice border collies out there.

 

My first dog had some nice natural talent. When I first took her for a lesson with a USBCHA open handler after 15 minutes of working with her he asked is she was still intact and did I have papers on her.

 

At the time she was still intact. But I did end up spaying her a few months later.

 

My first dog, I wanted to learn with her and enjoy her. I knew I could always find a great pup elsewhere bred by people who really know what they're doing.

 

I acquired my second dog intact as well. He is a nice working bred dog, ABCA registered with nice natural talent. I had him neutered at 2 y/o because I knew I probably wouldn't get him trained to the point where I'd feel comfortable with breeding him. I actually went on to do SAR with him and am now getting back into stockwork with him at 7 y/o. He's fun dog for me to work with - fast and lots of dog, but he learns and he's got natural talent. But I don't regret having him neutered. He's my buddy, I love working with him. That's far and away enough for me!

 

When I'm ready for another working dog, I'll just contact a breeder that know what they're doing in that department!

 

 

Mara --

 

Appreciate your response -- your insight and feedback are very helpful. I was already asked the same thing by a USBCHA handler (whether Uri was still intact) when I took him to our first clinic. I think, like you apparently did, that I want to make the right decision, for the right reasons, and at the right time. No doubt a decision about Maya will be clearer and easier because of her AKC-breeding; probably not so easy regarding Uri, but that was the purpose of my post -- to lay out my circumstances and questions for others to help better ground my thinking and ultimate decision-making.

 

Thanks.

Ross Bash

[juliepoudrier]

Ross,

Where in western PA are you? I'm sure someone could point you to good trainers who might be close enough to make the trip worth your while. And I personally believe that one is better off with a really good trainer less often than a poor trainer more often.

 

As for breeding, others have made good points. I just want to point out that if Maya's breeder sold her on a limited registration, it's doubtful that she'll turn around and agree to let you leave her intact (stranger things have happened, but if she went to the trouble of doing the limited registration in the first place, then she's probably got good reasons). So, let's say she doesn't agree to lift the limitation on registering. That leaves you with an unregistered dog. As you know the ROM requirements are strict. If you choose to leave Maya intact and leave her unregistered (and that may be your *only* choice) and then you choose to breed her to Uri, you will produce a bunch of unregistered pups. Do you have a market for unregistered (and essentially unregisterable) pups? In the working world, especially among farmers and ranchers, registration might not be a major selling point, but in the pet world, it probably is, thanks largely to AKC, which has made the purebred dog a desirable thing. And your options for selling unregistered pups from an unproven bitch and dog are extremely limited among folks who actually depend on working border collies on their farms. <--This is why I said that your market would largely be pets.

 

Regarding AHBA trainers, I know USBCHA people who do some AHBA--I've run in one trial myself and had fun, mostly. But be aware that you could be limiting yourself and your dogs, especially if your trainer is an "all-breed" trainer or one who has seldom or never run successfully in open field trials. It's a case of "you don't know what you don't know," when it comes to such trainers and success in AHBA trials does not necesarily a great trainer make. My main point is if they've never trained a dog to be successful in USBCHA type open trials then they don't have the experience to do that sort of training, nor do they have the experience to judge whether a working border collie they're training is worthy of being bred (how could they if they've never really trained or tested dogs at the top levels?).

 

If I were you, I would neuter Maya. I have had a number of strictly conformation-bred (or AKC-bred) dogs come out to my place and have yet to see one that could do more than perhaps make it around a novice course if trained mechanically. The odds are truly against Maya really having the talent or trainability to become a bitch suitable for breeding. That's not to say you shouldn't try to train her, but I just wouldn't consider her a good breeding prospect given the breeding she's come from.

 

Uri is another story. If he really does come from working parents or working lines close up then he probably has the genetics there to be tapped into and trained up. You can keep him intact and if he proves out to be a really nice working dog, then you can find a good working bitch to breed him to. If he proves out, there will likely be people willing to breed to him. The other advantage is that with just one intact dog, you won't have to worry about accidental breedings.

 

But by proving out, I mean proving his abilities not just in AHBA trials or on your home flock, but in tests of the sort sanctioned by the USBCHA.

 

I've bred one litter, and despite the care I took in choosing a stud for my bitch, still ended up with two pups who are epileptic. I'm saying this just to point out that heartbreak can happen, even to those who do the research and put in the time and effort to make the best choices possible when it comes to breeding. I have pretty much come to the conclusion, after 11 years of doing this, that there are plenty of well-bred puppies out there and it's a heck of a lot easier to find a cross that suits me and get on a list and buy a pup than to breed my own. And that's another thing for you to consider. My bitch had some odd complications during her pregnancy, to the point where I told my vet, "If the safest thing for my bitch is to spay her now and lose the puppies, I'll do it." My bitch was/is that important to me. I know people breed litters all the time without problems, but the risk to the bitch is real and something that also should be considered.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Julie, you've pretty much said everything I wish I knew enough to say.

 

 

~ Gloria

[Eileen Stein]

I'm moving this topic to General Border Collie Discussion, where it seems to fit better.

[Sue R]

Julie, you've pretty much said everything I wish I knew enough to say.

 

 

~ Gloria

As usual. I wish I knew what she's knows and could put it into words like she can. She generally hits it right on the head.

[Ross Bash]

I'm moving this topic to General Border Collie Discussion, where it seems to fit better.

 

Eileen --

 

Appreciate your moving it to General Border Collie discussion. I realized too late that I had posted it to the Obedience, Agility and Flyball section by mistake, then tried to move it (unsuccessfully) and finally ended up re-posting it to the Training Section where I had originally intended (I'm not much of a blogger as you may have gathered).

 

Thanks, again.

Ross Bash

[Pam Wolf]

i do have one more question. Why did not your friend return the bitch to the breeder? This is often the desired outcome for breeders.

 

It soulds like she is in a good home but I am sure the breeder would want to know where she is.

[Ross Bash]

Ross,

Where in western PA are you? I'm sure someone could point you to good trainers who might be close enough to make the trip worth your while. And I personally believe that one is better off with a really good trainer less often than a poor trainer more often.

 

As for breeding, others have made good points. I just want to point out that if Maya's breeder sold her on a limited registration, it's doubtful that she'll turn around and agree to let you leave her intact (stranger things have happened, but if she went to the trouble of doing the limited registration in the first place, then she's probably got good reasons). So, let's say she doesn't agree to lift the limitation on registering. That leaves you with an unregistered dog. As you know the ROM requirements are strict. If you choose to leave Maya intact and leave her unregistered (and that may be your *only* choice) and then you choose to breed her to Uri, you will produce a bunch of unregistered pups. Do you have a market for unregistered (and essentially unregisterable) pups? In the working world, especially among farmers and ranchers, registration might not be a major selling point, but in the pet world, it probably is, thanks largely to AKC, which has made the purebred dog a desirable thing. And your options for selling unregistered pups from an unproven bitch and dog are extremely limited among folks who actually depend on working border collies on their farms. <--This is why I said that your market would largely be pets.

 

Regarding AHBA trainers, I know USBCHA people who do some AHBA--I've run in one trial myself and had fun, mostly. But be aware that you could be limiting yourself and your dogs, especially if your trainer is an "all-breed" trainer or one who has seldom or never run successfully in open field trials. It's a case of "you don't know what you don't know," when it comes to such trainers and success in AHBA trials does not necesarily a great trainer make. My main point is if they've never trained a dog to be successful in USBCHA type open trials then they don't have the experience to do that sort of training, nor do they have the experience to judge whether a working border collie they're training is worthy of being bred (how could they if they've never really trained or tested dogs at the top levels?).

 

If I were you, I would neuter Maya. I have had a number of strictly conformation-bred (or AKC-bred) dogs come out to my place and have yet to see one that could do more than perhaps make it around a novice course if trained mechanically. The odds are truly against Maya really having the talent or trainability to become a bitch suitable for breeding. That's not to say you shouldn't try to train her, but I just wouldn't consider her a good breeding prospect given the breeding she's come from.

 

Uri is another story. If he really does come from working parents or working lines close up then he probably has the genetics there to be tapped into and trained up. You can keep him intact and if he proves out to be a really nice working dog, then you can find a good working bitch to breed him to. If he proves out, there will likely be people willing to breed to him. The other advantage is that with just one intact dog, you won't have to worry about accidental breedings.

 

But by proving out, I mean proving his abilities not just in AHBA trials or on your home flock, but in tests of the sort sanctioned by the USBCHA.

 

I've bred one litter, and despite the care I took in choosing a stud for my bitch, still ended up with two pups who are epileptic. I'm saying this just to point out that heartbreak can happen, even to those who do the research and put in the time and effort to make the best choices possible when it comes to breeding. I have pretty much come to the conclusion, after 11 years of doing this, that there are plenty of well-bred puppies out there and it's a heck of a lot easier to find a cross that suits me and get on a list and buy a pup than to breed my own. And that's another thing for you to consider. My bitch had some odd complications during her pregnancy, to the point where I told my vet, "If the safest thing for my bitch is to spay her now and lose the puppies, I'll do it." My bitch was/is that important to me. I know people breed litters all the time without problems, but the risk to the bitch is real and something that also should be considered.

 

J.

 

 

Julie --

 

I first have to concur with the comments of Gloria Atwater and Sue R. regarding your reply -- I often look first for your responses when I review posts on BC Boards and I was hoping that you would also respond to my questions.

 

In answer to your question about where we are in western PA -- about 30 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. My first (and I think only prior) post on BC Boards was to ask if anyone knew of some good trainers in the region (PA, NY, MD, WV, VA or OH, within 125 miles or so). I got lots of helpful responses, but no good leads except at really long travel distances (e.g., southeastern northeastern PA). Followed up on a couple by e-mail, but either got negative responses or no response. I also got in touch with a herding group in western NY, and they've been really helpful and encouraging (they were my lead to the trainer I've gone to in Ohio; she's an all breed trainer who favors German Shepherds, though she also has Border Collies; she's been really helpful, but it's a haul to get out there). The group is also pretty strongly tied to AHBA and AKCs so, if you have some ACBA or ABCHA-related leads, I'd be really appreciative!

 

What you indicate about Maya's breeder and the restriction on her AKC registration is helpful to know -- I know very little about AKC policies and practices, especially as they relate to dogs bred for show, so I suspected the restriction was just a price factor (i.e., you pay more for the pup if you want the right to breed her). I called AKC after we got Maya to to ask them about restrictions like this and they said I had to deal with it with the breeder, so if she wouldn't lift it (by reason of price or otherwise), then it's a moot point. Probably worth asking her (nothing lost), but my post was intended to raise broader concerns and questions than this one.

 

So, as you may have already realized (but let me be clear anyway), I have no interest whatever in breeding unregistered pups -- probably among the more/most irresponsible behaviors in our society. We not only have adopted a lot of shelter and abandoned dogs over the years, but also work with a local "no kill" shelter, so I'd rather keep working as part of the solution (such as it is) than become part of the problem. Nor am I partial to purebred or registered dogs (some of our best dogs over the years were mutts), except where it helps support and preserve something related to the purpose or function of a particular breed (like the working ability of Border Collies).

 

The experience you shared regarding the one litter you bred raised a consideration that I hadn't thought about (not surprising, huh? the human -- and dog -- population explosion might be curtailed quite a bit if it was the men who got pregnant!). It really resonated with me though, and I will give a lot of thought to what you've said in regard to both Maya and Uri. I will definitely continue with Maya's training -- the only connection breeding had with that was whether (and how soon) her training might make clear what her realistic potential was as far as qualifying for ABCA registration (with AKC as an alternative; that now looks more like a bad alternative). Uri does come from working parents and working lines; there's a Great Britain National champion (Nap) and a Great Britain International champion (Sweep) three generations back (I find it altogether humbling sometimes to realize that my dog has better breeding than me!) The first time he was exposed to sheep, I watched as something like a jolt of electricity shot through his eyes and body -- it was amazing to watch, and even more amazing then to start to work with -- what a high!

 

I very much appreciated your thoughtful and helpful reply -- not only do I second what Gloria and Sue R. had to say in response to your reply, but you really added some important things I hadn't considered.

 

Thanks.

Ross Bash