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What is the point of this?


jdarling
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Maria, if you read back in the posts, I was never one of the ones who was calling the dogs names (although I also didn't argue with people doing it because it's pretty obvious...), but you can keep telling me I was. I am reacting solely to the fact that you are continuing to say, "Stop picking on my show dog." This particular thread never was about you or your dog. Oh, and ... the dogs can't read! I think my intention with the post was pretty clear. The title says, "What is the point of this?" and you open it up, and there's a link to a conformation show. Period. There was nothing ambiguous about it before or after you got here, and there still isn't. Like I said before, I cannot control what other people post.

 

And, honestly, I can't even make sense of this "argument" enough to either agree or disagree with you anymore. I'm sorry you're taking offense. No, no I'm not. Take all the offense you want. I don't care what you take offense to, or don't take offense to. This conversation is going in circles, and still no one has told me what the point is of showing dogs in conformation! But Maria, just for you, I will never ever ever post another thing that could possibly be construed as me picking on a show dog on a working dog board, or I will never post something about conformation in any sense because someone might say something that might be negative toward one of your show dogs on the working dog board you're hanging out on. You win. I'm done. I don't even care what conformation IS anymore, no less why anyone would waste their time showing their dogs in it.

 

Jodi

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Yes, the Rusty I just adopted out is sable colored. Sort of ironic that RDM adopted out a RED Rusty to a woman named Debbie, though. :rolleyes:

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OK, let me ask this: what if, instead of the trot-trot link, it was a link to the AKC National Agility Championships? Would that be as offensive? Sure, the dogs aren't trotting, catching spit liver, or whatever, but what they ARE doing isn't exactly celebrating the heritage of the working dog either. Is it ok because they aren't being bred for looks, but instead insane speed and drive (and a certain size and colour too)?

 

Here is my strawman: Sport breeders ("pups from top working lines") are a way bigger threat to the working border collie than the conformation people. First, there are more people who do agility than conformation. At the last trial in the US that we were in (not AKC), there were 132 dogs in our class, and I would say 100 of them were border collies. Second, they believe that they are breeding working dogs, and that if only they had time to work their dogs on stock, then MACH ADCH NATCH Fury Fire Fuzzy HIC could be competitive in Open.

 

Look at some of the more famous sport kennels (most of you know who they are) and count the number of pups they've put on the ground in the last 5 years. Does that trouble anyone besides me?

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still no one has told me what the point is of showing dogs in conformation!

Jodi

 

Well I have no idea what the point is since im not a conformation person, but I will take a guess. I would think they want to win! To expand on that it is for bragging rights that day. I have the prettiest dog here today. I will also wagger it might just be dog fanciers wanting to get together with like minded dog people. Kinda like it is when we go to trials isnt it. To be around other like minded dog people? And to have the best dog there that day. To watch dogs that are of interest to us. That is just a guess but I made a attempt, I haven't been to any conformation show only one dog Trial.

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Here is my strawman: Sport breeders ("pups from top working lines") are a way bigger threat to the working border collie than the conformation people. First, there are more people who do agility than conformation. At the last trial in the US that we were in (not AKC), there were 132 dogs in our class, and I would say 100 of them were border collies. Second, they believe that they are breeding working dogs, and that if only they had time to work their dogs on stock, then MACH ADCH NATCH Fury Fire Fuzzy HIC could be competitive in Open.

I believe I already answered this earlier in this thread:

When someone says something like "My dog would have been much better as a stockdog if it hadn't been held back by a handler like me," when discussing breeding worthiness of the dog, it makes me cringe. It is NOT a valid argument and is in fact the very argument nearly always used by the conformation/show set to explain away why their dogs are not worked to a high standard, if at all. We've all heard the argument, "I'm sure my dog would excel in open trials if only I had the time/skill/money/________(fill in the blank)" and that's just a justification with no basis in fact. [emphasis added]

 

I agree that sports breeders are likely a bigger threat than conformation breeders, but then that's why we repeat, ad nauseum, that the only valid reason for breeding is to continue and hopefully improve the stockworking ability of the breed. Sports folks can call agility, flyball, and anything else they want "work," but I know we've had the "what is work" discussion here (and elsewhere) numerous times as well, and it ain't doggy sports. People who wish to breed and have no clue about what it takes to work stock (or even manage stock, with or without a dog) will always come up with excuses and justifications for breeding their sport collies. But I have to admit that they are only reacting to supply and demand, and if the people who continue to buy from them would just get a clue then the demand would dry up and we wouldn't have to worry so much about the sport breeders. But as we have proven time and again, we can talk about what constitutes work and what constitutes a good reason for breeding until we are blue in the face and still the clueless and the willful and those who think we need to get with the program because the world's changing and the need for good stockdogs is declining and it's the nature of humans to change things for the better--I mean how many friggin' times have we heard these arguments??? And yet we still try to fight the good fight and guaranteed someone will come along and react badly thinking we are saying they shouldn't have a border collie because they don't have livestock and what gives us border collie snobs the right to dictate what they do with their dogs? Their dogs are just as good as ours and besides, ours are becoming obsolete so we need to get with the program and recognize that sport collies are the border collie of the future! Have I covered it all?

 

Oh, and Jodi? The reason no one answered your question is because there is no point, at least not beyond the self serving and self aggrandizing.

 

banghead.gif

 

J., with a very bloody forehead. :rolleyes:

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...But I have to admit that they are only reacting to supply and demand, and if the people who continue to buy from them would just get a clue then the demand would dry up and we wouldn't have to worry so much about the sport breeders.

It's not that I don't agree with a lot of what you are saying, Julie, because I do! I know that last year, my first year running a dog in any kind of field trial, I sucked. I really sucked. This year, I think I am merely bad. But my dog just hoisted me on his broad shoulders and got us around the course. We didn't win any Open trials, but we have found a comfortable spot in the middle of the pack, and while I know he could do better with someone better, he's stuck with me, and we're muddling through. BTW, I had Lou neutered last year, for a number of reasons, but the most important one being that I didn't think he had anything particularly useful to contribute to the breed.

 

Back on point, though. These sport-bred dogs, some of them have really nice lines. Maybe not great top and bottom, but there's some good stuff in there, and you don't have to look very far back to find it. So if we're saying that you should breed only for working ability (and I totally agree with you here) then how come it's so easy for these sport breeders to cross to good working dogs? It's a partly rhetorical question, as I've asked of some of these working folks, and the response is along the lines of "well, if I turn her down, she'll just use some piece of crap from down the road".

 

I've been approached by sport breeders, wanting to know who they should cross with to "put some working ability back in their line". I always answer the same: if your bitch can't do an honest day's work (and by work, I mean work) then you shouldn't even be considering breeding. The owner inevitably smiles, mutters something and wanders away. A number of those breeders will find someone who has no problem breeding their good dog to hers.

 

So while we can condemn easily those who breed to an appearance-based standard, can we say that the working sheepdog community is being as careful as it should be? It's very easy to point fingers at something so out there as conformation border collies, or designer sport mixes (such as borderjacks and stacks). I know it's a head scratcher for me, and I sure wish the AKC would close their stud books, but since that doesn't seem to be on the horizon ...

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OK, let me ask this: what if, instead of the trot-trot link, it was a link to the AKC National Agility Championships? Would that be as offensive? Sure, the dogs aren't trotting, catching spit liver, or whatever, but what they ARE doing isn't exactly celebrating the heritage of the working dog either. Is it ok because they aren't being bred for looks, but instead insane speed and drive (and a certain size and colour too)?

 

Here is my strawman: Sport breeders ("pups from top working lines") are a way bigger threat to the working border collie than the conformation people. First, there are more people who do agility than conformation. At the last trial in the US that we were in (not AKC), there were 132 dogs in our class, and I would say 100 of them were border collies. Second, they believe that they are breeding working dogs, and that if only they had time to work their dogs on stock, then MACH ADCH NATCH Fury Fire Fuzzy HIC could be competitive in Open.

 

Look at some of the more famous sport kennels (most of you know who they are) and count the number of pups they've put on the ground in the last 5 years. Does that trouble anyone besides me?

 

If anything, those scare me much more than the conformation bred dogs. The split between the show bred dogs and the working bred dogs is evident at this point, the lines between the working bred dogs and the sport dogs aren't as clear cut and the dogs being put out in force are very high drive dogs that may not have a great off switch. I think when all is said is done, the sport bred dogs will be in rescue in higher number than working and conformation put together.

 

Maria

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Kristi,

I think my response would be, "Why not let them breed to the piece of crap down the road? At least then you can have the satisfaction of knowing you're not contributing to the problem!" Really, stud fees aren't so high as to be a huge monemaker for most working dog folks, but I suppose there are those who let ethics fall by the wayside for the sake of a few hundred dollars. Sad, really. Anyway, it may be difficult to say something like the above to a fellow working dog person, but maybe if more of us did, we'd make some small difference....

 

J.

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Hey Julie,

 

I totally agree with you about just saying no :rolleyes: but I get the impression that it's not about the money, it's really that they think it's better to use their dog than the piece of crap down the road. The lesser of two evils, I guess, is how they rationalize it. One thing I will say about the few conformation breeders that I've met - they wouldn't touch our dogs with a ten-foot pole. All that leg! The big ears! The incomplete ruff!

 

Anyway, I just find it interesting that threads like the Westminster thread and this one can inspire such unified vitriol, but when highlights from the FCI Worlds is posted, the response is usually enthusiastic. I guess it's because the purpose of the breed ring is to select for the next generation, while agility (largely) is about the performance, and we don't have to think so much about where all these border collies come from.

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So if we're saying that you should breed only for working ability (and I totally agree with you here) then how come it's so easy for these sport breeders to cross to good working dogs? . . . . So while we can condemn easily those who breed to an appearance-based standard, can we say that the working sheepdog community is being as careful as it should be?

 

Of course not. If the working sheepdog community were immune to the pressures of the KC culture, we'd never have had anything to worry about from AKC recognition. Because human nature is so fallible, and there will always be individuals in any "community" who sell out, as well as individuals too shortsighted to see the future implications of present conduct, we do.

 

I totally agree with you about just saying no but I get the impression that it's not about the money, it's really that they think it's better to use their dog than the piece of crap down the road. The lesser of two evils, I guess, is how they rationalize it.

 

Rationalization is the word, all right. There's always room for rationalization, and if one rationalization is knocked down, another one will take its place. Usually it IS about the money, from what I can see, but nearly everybody comes up with a reason that sounds prettier.

 

Anyway, I just find it interesting that threads like the Westminster thread and this one can inspire such unified vitriol, but when highlights from the FCI Worlds is posted, the response is usually enthusiastic. I guess it's because the purpose of the breed ring is to select for the next generation, while agility (largely) is about the performance, and we don't have to think so much about where all these border collies come from.

 

Yes, it is a key distinction that the breed ring selects for breeding stock and purports to define the breed, whereas agility is a multi-breed performance competition which has nothing to do with breeding and can't really be bred for (whatever some agility breeders may claim). There is nothing wrong with competing a border collie in agility, while it is wrong per se to show a border collie in conformation. Of course, any breeding without regard to working ability, whatever its purpose, is detrimental to our breed, and moves the dogs so bred away from being border collies. But breeding for agility is a much newer thing, and a much less conspicuous thing (Donald McCaig, for instance, believes that all the good agility people seek out their pups from working breeders and that there are no "agility lines"), than breeding for conformation. If the attitudinal difference you perceive in threads actually exists, I would think that's the explanation. I don't think you'd find that any of us concerned about the integrity of the breed are the least bit complacent about breeding for agility.

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Our knee-jerk reaction of "Ewwwww" is the same that we'd probably have if we saw a favorite movie star that had gained a bunch of weight and grown a scruffy beard and hair style. What we once appreciated is all gone, replaced with something that just won't "do" - for whatever reason - and we say, "WHY?!?! We liked it better the way it was!"

 

I call that aging and I'm trying to do it gracefully but it ain't happening!

 

It's a shame that posters get so wrapped up in individual stories or particular dogs. It's about the whole breed. I think the froufrou (btw that's how it came up on spell check) dogs are beautiful, sweet and as deserving of love as any other type dog. I think my dogs are BEAUTIFUL when they are out working. Not the same thing. I do think my dogs are cute and sweet but would never win any beauty contests unless it was maybe on a big field full of sheep (we can dream can't we?)

 

I really think the confOrmation breeders do not understand what they are missing. The working dog people know what they are missing. We've all had beautiful dogs that don't work in our past lives. (at least most) so we know what it's like to have beauty without knowing what a dog really has in it's head and still love it to pieces. But a true working dog can only show what it has to someone who knows enough to see the beauty.

 

When I first started out working dogs, I didn't understand the subtle differences. I still don't quite understand all of them but I sure know a BEAUTIFUL dog out on the field when I see one. I don't know enough to think I'm ready for breeding one. In fact I wonder if I'll ever get there. So many dogs, so many small differences, I don't know what I really want and I sure don't know what I'd actually breed if I were to anyways.

 

The confOrmation people can't understand what they don't know. If they are unwilling to learn it, then they will go on breeding beautiful dogs and never know what they missed, it's really to bad for them.

 

All dogs are beautiful to their owners and to me. Rightfully so, but to see true working beauty is something the general public rarely gets to see or even understand. I remember seeing a good working dog when I first started and I really thought the man must beat his dogs to get them to do what they were doing naturally. That's not knowing what I didn't know!

 

Back to lurking on this topic. It tires me so I can't see straight!

 

Beauty is as beauty does for me, but I love them all!

Kristen

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...But breeding for agility is a much newer thing, and a much less conspicuous thing (Donald McCaig, for instance, believes that all the good agility people seek out their pups from working breeders and that there are no "agility lines"), than breeding for conformation.

Exactly, it is a much more insidious trend than the conformation breeding that bothers everyone so much. In fact, I would wager that a conformation breeder would want to breed to your dogs about as much as you want to breed to his. But to say that "good agility people" don't seek "agility lines" may have been how it was a few years ago, but it's not what I am seeing these days.

 

For example, here are the top 5 border collies in AKC agility:

MACH7 Hillcrest's Vixen MXF REG

MACH12 Lukan's Mister Big Stuff XF REG

MACH2 Quicksilver Licensed To Thrill PT OF REG

MACH Rising Sun's Nyx XF REG

MACH8 Super Star XF REG

 

I don't know about the last one, but the first 4 kennel prefixes ... well, you know more about who's who than me. But from where I sit in the cheap seats, I wonder if this is what Mr. McCaig meant by 'working breeders'. Now one could say "Well, it's AKC agility so what do you expect" but this is the highest-profile venue in most areas of the US. This is where the instructors for a lot of classes compete, and this is also the venue that selects and sends teams to the FCI World's (and no ILPs, please!).

 

What I think happens is that "monkey sees what gorrilla does". IOW, if Fancy Handler has a dog from a certain kennel, then wanna-be thinks "I am going to get a pup from that kennel so I, too, can be fancy". What Fancy-wannabe doesn't seem to take into consideration is that perhaps where the dog came from has less to do with its success than its training and handling (and campaigning) by Fancy Handler. But dang it, it's a full brother to MACH ADCH S-NATCH FamousKennel Ewe Can't Beat Me, and its parents have had all of their tests for hips, eyes, elbows, dandruff. They are weaned on raw, clicker trained from 2 weeks onwards, and temperment-tested by a certified expert for ball drive. And his great-great-grandfather is that famous dog, Wisp, is it? Those working folks, they might not do all those tests, and they can't tell me how tall the dog will be, or how fast, and they don't know anything about what it takes to be a top agility dog. (These are not my musings, btw. This is what I am told by folks when they are recounting how they chose their pup. Me, I run a rescue borderline collie with no pedigree, no known age - I say she's 6 - and I couldn't ask for a better, more willing, athletic teammate).

 

I think I am drifting far off topic here, since I share the opinion of everyone else on this thread - border collies do not belong in the conformation ring. But I hope I am not alone in casting a nervous eye towards the sport venues, where the border collies are starting to look eerily uniform ...

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I submit to you that the QHs that were being bred two or three decades ago are not the ones I'm seeing every day, now. I am well aware, as are most here, that there is a difference between working animals and fou fou ones. Twenty seven generations can make a lot of difference.

 

 

Pax,

 

You commented on those AQHA horses looking unsound-footwise after their teens, hence my example of my 20+ year olds . However, their foals, who are three years old , exhibit the same good feet , so I do believe you and I are looking at different AQHA horses--i.e different bloodlines, different uses. Mine are ridden and ridden hard and stay sound footed. None of mine came from any "frou frou" bloodlines from any generation 27 or later. Just well bred working cowhorses. So to group all the AQHA horses from a small sampling of what you have seen, which I must guess are halter horses , many with historically poor wheels all the way around, is not unlike comparing a working Border Collie to the show Border Collie , which was the original thought is this thread.

 

Carolyn

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I hope I am not alone in casting a nervous eye towards the sport venues...

 

No, you are not alone. I am particularly disturbed by the numbers of pups produced from agility dogs and from working-bred dogs but with agility as the future for the pups. The folks producing them are often boasting of this or that other great working dog(s) in their near ancestry, but they are being bred because of their agility potential/prowess not because of any real, proven working ability.

 

Just as disturbing are folks who are breeding reasonably proven working dogs/bitches with successful agility performers of good-sounding pedigrees. You know the produce of these matings are destined for agility and other performance sport futures, not working stock in any way (except maybe as an AKC thing, that "versatility" concept again).

 

It is a case of supply and demand. As the ABCA registration of dogs like these are often maintained, they keep up the appearance of being "working-bred" when in fact they are no longer being bred for the work. It's a matter of producing pups that can be sold for a profit. As long as the demand is there, there will be people to satisfy it, for a price...

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Kristi,

You are certainly not alone, but as individuals, all I think we can do is try not to contribute to the problem ourselves and perhaps use peer pressure to try and get other working dog folks not to contribute as well. If enough working dog folk would do that, then the influx of working dogs into sport lines would at least decline a bit, and eventually the sport breeders would just use their own lines, and then voila! we'll have three separate "lines" of border collies: working, sport, and conformation. While it's easy to avoid breeding to conformation lines, it's not so easy to stay away from the sport breeders. We often comment (on this forum, for example) that pups from working litters that don't go to working homes are certainly suitable for sport homes. The sticky part comes when we allow those pups to go fully registered (i.e., without a nonbreeding status on the registration) and without S/N contracts. That's how the working lines will continue to flow into the sport lines. Since some breeders make a lot of money doing just that, it will be very difficult to stop it, IMO. Individuals can do their part, but unless the working community comes together as a whole to put pressure on its peers not to buy into the sport collie culture or make it easy for them to continue to use our lines, what you're seeing will continue. I do think that probably the sport lines will eventually be the lines from which sport wannabes will buy their pups, and just like with the conformation lines (which also started with good working dogs) the split will come so that you'll still find good working names way back in the pedigree, but all the close up stuff will be out of those sport kennels. After all, human nature will dictate a philosophy that breeding awesome sport dog from kennel A to awesome sport dog from kennel B will be more likely to produce awesome sport puppies than breeding the dog from kennel A to a dog from strictly working lines (which is still the case today, I think). So no great answers here--I'm just trying as an individual to make sure I do the right thing and encourage others I know to do the same, including not buying from "working breeders" who sell most of their pups into sport homes and yet still call themselves working dog breeders.

 

J.

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There is also the fact that some working lines in fact make superior sport dogs, and the advanced level sport people know exactly what those lines are. Nothing wrong with that, until the working breeders yield to pressure to breed mediocre working dogs to supply the sport folks what they want. It's tempting because there's big money in it, and after all the dogs in question work, right? But it should not be our goal to produce mediocrity for any reason, or it will spread through the gene pool as it has through other working breeds.

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This is an entirely stupid argument.

 

Conformation breeders will breed Border Collies for conformation regardless of whether we think it is wrong or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs are ugly or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs have a horrible life going from show ring to show ring. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, show, and train conformation Barbie Border Collies, and because they can.

 

Sport breeders will breed Border Collies for Agility, Frisbee, Doggie Dancing, Dock Diving, Puppy Polo, CaniCross or whatever other games someone can come with that someone can do with their dog. They will claim it is "work" and that their best dogs come from "strong working lines". They'll do this regardless of whether we think they are delusional, and whether we think they are ruining the breed. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, and train Sport Border Colllies, and because they can.

 

"Herding" breeders will breed Border Collies for "herding" because they won a ProNovice trial once or show interest in stock and their great-great-great-great-great granddaddy was ##Wiston Cap. They'll do this regardless of whether or not we label them "backyard breeders" and mock them. Why will they do this? Because they can, because they think their dog is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and because someone will buy their dogs.

 

People who want Border Collies who can work stock and want to do so, will go to the people who have been consistently breeding good working dogs and buy from them. Some of them will take the time, and make the effort, to learn what it takes to breed good working dogs so that there will be another generation of a small group of breeders who produce good working dogs. Why will they do this? Because they need good working dogs, and because they care about the breed. They rarely produce enough dogs to make any money off it. Some can make money training and teaching.

 

All we can do is continue to get the word out that such people exist and guide people who need good dogs to them. Let the sport breeders breed the Sport Border Collie. Pretty soon they'll all be Border Jacks or some such thing. Let the conformation breeders breed the Barbie Border Collie, Pretty soon there will be three (or more) breeds. The Border Collie breed is only 150 or so years old. That's about 30 generations. The Australian Barbie Colllie is well on its way to being a new breed. The sooner the better.

 

Unless every breeder of working dogs is prepared to either not sell into pet, sport, or show homes, or only to do so with a strict and enforceable "spay/neuter" contract, and not to let their dogs be used for breeding with sport or conformation dogs this will continue.

 

As for the annual round of "look at the ugly conformation dogs, aren't we superior with our non-fluffy, covered in shit, skinny "working" dogs", it's pointless, arrogant, and juvenile.

 

The best way to support the betterment of the breed is to get out there and work your damn dogs and let the general public see you doing it. The conformation and sport breeders won't go away as long as there are prizes to be won and money to be made so don't waste your breath on them. Spend your effort on supporting the true working breeders and, more importantly, real working dogs.

 

Pearse

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This is an entirely stupid argument.

 

Conformation breeders will breed Border Collies for conformation regardless of whether we think it is wrong or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs are ugly or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs have a horrible life going from show ring to show ring. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, show, and train conformation Barbie Border Collies, and because they can.

 

Sport breeders will breed Border Collies for Agility, Frisbee, Doggie Dancing, Dock Diving, Puppy Polo, CaniCross or whatever other games someone can come with that someone can do with their dog. They will claim it is "work" and that their best dogs come from "strong working lines". They'll do this regardless of whether we think they are delusional, and whether we think they are ruining the breed. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, and train Sport Border Colllies, and because they can.

 

"Herding" breeders will breed Border Collies for "herding" because they won a ProNovice trial once or show interest in stock and their great-great-great-great-great granddaddy was ##Wiston Cap. They'll do this regardless of whether or not we label them "backyard breeders" and mock them. Why will they do this? Because they can, because they think their dog is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and because someone will buy their dogs.

 

People who want Border Collies who can work stock and want to do so, will go to the people who have been consistently breeding good working dogs and buy from them. Some of them will take the time, and make the effort, to learn what it takes to breed good working dogs so that there will be another generation of a small group of breeders who produce good working dogs. Why will they do this? Because they need good working dogs, and because they care about the breed. They rarely produce enough dogs to make any money off it. Some can make money training and teaching.

 

All we can do is continue to get the word out that such people exist and guide people who need good dogs to them. Let the sport breeders breed the Sport Border Collie. Pretty soon they'll all be Border Jacks or some such thing. Let the conformation breeders breed the Barbie Border Collie, Pretty soon there will be three (or more) breeds. The Border Collie breed is only 150 or so years old. That's about 30 generations. The Australian Barbie Colllie is well on its way to being a new breed. The sooner the better.

 

Unless every breeder of working dogs is prepared to either not sell into pet, sport, or show homes, or only to do so with a strict and enforceable "spay/neuter" contract, and not to let their dogs be used for breeding with sport or conformation dogs this will continue.

 

As for the annual round of "look at the ugly conformation dogs, aren't we superior with our non-fluffy, covered in shit, skinny "working" dogs", it's pointless, arrogant, and juvenile.

 

The best way to support the betterment of the breed is to get out there and work your damn dogs and let the general public see you doing it. The conformation and sport breeders won't go away as long as there are prizes to be won and money to be made so don't waste your breath on them. Spend your effort on supporting the true working breeders and, more importantly, real working dogs.

 

Pearse

 

 

 

 

Can I get an AMEN! Very well said.

 

 

Betty

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This is an entirely stupid argument.

 

Most of what you go on to say here is entirely consistent with what everyone else has said in this discussion (not really an argument, I would say). What you are overlooking is that the categories of "conformation breeders," "sport breeders," "herding breeders" and working breeders, and their buyers, are not fixed. They are fluid and changing. There will always be some people in each category, but their numbers can be affected by many different types of pressures. I think it's in the interest of the working border collie breed to try to influence people away from the first three categories, and thereby push against the marginalization of the working border collie. You may feel differently, but calling our efforts stupid will not change my mind.

 

Also, I've never been able to see why one must choose between engaging in this type of discussion and "supporting the true working breeders and, more importantly, real working dogs." Surely one can do both. In fact, I would say that doing the first is one form of doing the second.

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