sticky dog

[wc]

Does anybody know what a sticky dog is and what can be done about it? I mean is it kind of like a vague generic term like a hard dog? Is it something that can be trained out of if done right?

[Thor]

From my limited knowledge I would say that "most" dogs are sticky, those I've seen anyway. Think that means that the dog is to close to the sheep, pushing them to fast. It is also the biggest problems newbies like me struggle with. There are a number of methods to use, maybe some of the more exerienced members here can give you some advice.

 

But it is very possible to solve this problem.

[PennyT]

I think there may a translation problem here because "sticky" does not mean the dog seems to be trying to stick his nose under the tails of the sheep. A dog might stick in close quarters. For example, if he pushed the sheep up to the handler who was standing in a corner but the term itself has no particular reference to distance from livestock.

 

The word "sticky" in regard to border collies means getting stuck in one spot and not moving. Usually that spot is too far from the sheep to be at all useful in interfering with where the sheep want to go, which can sometimes be where you did not have in mind although some sticky dogs stick when they are holding pressure and won't come off of it.

 

I understand that the way to help this situation is to keep the dog on his feet and to try to keep him moving. No downs.

 

I have a sticky dog and this is driving me nuts.

 

I really would like to hear about this.

 

Penny

[blackacre]

Well, I too would say that a sticky dog is one with a lot of eye. I believe it tends to get worse with age unless corrected. I think keeping the dog moving and on its feet helps, but the coolest thing I got from a clinic last year was to CORRECT a dog like this for NOT walking up or flanking when asked to do so, ie for clapping down, just as you would correct a dog for NOT lying down when asked to do so. The more usual response would be to encourage the dog to come on. Kinda radical and, to me at least, counter-intuitive.. A friend of mine with a dog with a lot of eye has used it since then and it works like a charm.

[wc]

This would be sticky in pressure. She stays on her feet.

I'm not sure if it's sticky or careful, I'm starting to think careful. The other thing I noticed about this dog is that she will focus so much on what she is doing, that it is hard to free her from it, not just being sticky, but on a long flank.

Right now with lambing I'm really noticing this when I'm trying to move a ewe-to-lamb, sometimes past ewes that have lambed, she wants to zero in on whoever is looking at her wrong or giving her trouble, usually a new ewe, even if that's not the one we started out working, then it's hard for me to break her away from it and back to the job we started. She will also get stuck on a ewe when working a group of ewes and lambs if a new mom is giving her trouble, she'll move her ok, but starts to let others go by the wayside. This a young inexperienced dog if that makes any difference.

[brookcove]

Mine was just like this last year, his first lambing. He has a lot of power but didn't quite know how to use it. I gave him lots of work where he was in a position of power (like moving flock into a corner) and his confidence and experience level rose quickly (faster than mine, ha!).

[wc]

Inci,

That would solve my problem now wouldn't it. Guess I'll have to keep stubbornly plugging away at this dog to make anything of her, but I'm patient. She did start getting better after I got her to stop drinking those wine coolers.

 

Did you find a way to get Mick up to Keith?

 

Really though, I always wondered what a sticky dog really is, and how it is caused.

So it's eye then? She has lots of eye.

 

Now my next question, .... How do you tell the difference between stock feel, and sticky, and when do you do something about it in the case of a young dog.

[PennyT]

Inci said: Now, the sticky dog is different. Tries to hold the herd together at all cost and holds it to anything but you.

 

Penny: This is not necessarily so.

[Thor]

ah. sticky in that kind of way. I think it has to do with my brain, not the translation. =)

[wc]

Thor,

I thought that only affected other breeds and barbie collies, not real dogs.

[wc]

Inci,

I like that rope idea, I'll try it. She is a very natural dog, and has good balance, so maybe she is just careful.

So sticky is a vague description then??

[Guest PrairieFire]

80 foot rope is good. Inci passed that on to me, and although I'm used to using it on pups - it made quite a difference on the older ones as well...just a wee reminder, wouldn't you know?

 

I like the "correcting" idea on sticky dogs as well - I had been shown that, for but some reason didn't think of it as "correcting", but of course it is - and like any correcting, needs to be done appropriately for the dog.

 

Wendy, nearly all my dogs have learned a "here, these" command in order to pull them off certain stock and onto others - you're gonna need it when you take that mutt into the shedding ring anyway..."here, here, these...lie down!...THERE...walk up" can work wonders to put the focus on the right group...

[blackacre]

Originally posted by wc:

So sticky is a vague description then??

I always assumed it was a quite specific description of a dog that has excessive eye and uses it eye to keep the sheep under control. This type of dog is happiest when the sheep are still and not going anywhere and is difficult to pull of the pressure point it has established. Will just stand or lie there and appears to be almost mesmerized by the sheep. Often manifested as holding the group against the fence or in a corner in the early stages of training. Reluctant to come off that point so as to establish pressure somewhere else, the point you want to get the job done. Prone to stopping short on the outrun so as to prevent the sheep from moving off. Doesn't want to upset the apple cart, in other words.

Andrea

[blackacre]

Addendum: will often fly in for a grip if forced to walk up.

A.

[concrete]

I have a six year old bitch that I bought when she was three( she had no training) and I've just now freed her up. I think a more experienced handler could have accomplished this quicker but I just kept trying different things till I got her moving.

By sticky I mean she would freeze up at balance or when she had to release pressure on an outrun or longer flank (9 and 3 o'clock). She would clap down and hold sheep against a fence for as long as I would let it her do it, which was a long time I found out.

I finally realized that the first thing I needed to do was push her out so she wasn't always working with her nose in pressure. I usually push a dog out by meeting it when it finds balance and turns into pressure, pushing it straight back and resending it. This never worked with this dog.

I put a good down on her and set up between her and the sheep and sent her. Forcing her to square up her flanks. As soon as she started slicing I downed her, got between her and the sheep and sent her again. Just good old fashioned dog training. I was worried this would make her too mechanical but I figured that would be better than what I had.

It didn't make her mechanical and it did free her up. I've got her doing 200 yd outruns now and she's looking pretty good. I have to stay very focused with her though and be ready with a correction if she starts to slice or slow down.

Driving ( with me close behind) or wearing in a straight line for long distances seems to help also. Keeps her on her feet and working and I don't have to do a lot of corrections.

Light sheep are a big plus too. I mix it up with her a lot.

I did some other stuff too but this is my first post and I'm not a talker so I feel like I've run on to long already.

I just asked myself a lot "OK she's not getting this what am I doing wrong?"

Hope this helps. Meghan is an excellent dog and I might actually run her in pro-novice this year. She goes back to Dryden Joe on top and bottom, has ##Wisp and H.Johnston's #Glen on top and J. Cropper's #Cap by Dryden Joe on the bottom.

 

Kevin Brannon

[blackacre]

Hey Kevin,

i have a Cropper's Cap grandson, no eye at all. Plain as all get out. Dryden Joe was very plain too, I'm told, would often look as if he wasn't even looking at the sheep at all, but he got the job done, brilliantly.

I agree that the key to a strong eyed dog is to break them off contact and not let them engage at inappropriate moments, like the early stages of the outrun or the first part of the flank. You don't want them sucked in by their eye and don't want them to engage the sheep until the last minute. This pretty well results in what I would call a "manufactured" outrun that does not resemble that of a natural outrunner, which begins to feel the sheep about 2/3 of the way out and BENDS OUT in response, creating the classic pear shaped outrun. If you allow a strong eyed dog to feel the sheep too early, they will be tight and stop short for the reasons I discussed earlier.

In my opinion, you also need to square off a strong eyed dog's flanks more than you would a plain dog that relies on its movement to some extent to move the sheep.You need to get this type of dog to disengage almost completely on a flank before re-establishing contact at the point chosen by you giving it a "there" or a walkup. Otherwise it is prone to slicing and establishing a point of contact just behind the optimum, say slightly BEHIND the shoulder rather than just at the shoulder. Has this been your experience with your dog?

My only caveat is that I did once own a dog with a quite a bit of eye that had been professionally trained. If you insisted on working him really far off contact and keeping him absolutely correct, he would eventually stall out when asked to walk up.

Andrea

[Guest PrairieFire]

"If you insisted on working him really far off contact and keeping him absolutely correct, he would eventually stall out when asked to walk up."

 

Andrea - would a small flank free up this dog, or did it take more? I've got one that small flanks help, generally, although he won't take an off pressure one without getting "harsher".

 

"If you allow a strong eyed dog to feel the sheep too early, they will be tight and stop short for the reasons I discussed earlier."

 

Well, I think this certainly CAN be the case - I've certainly seen it - but I also have known strong-eyed dogs who were natural and great outrunners - so I think those genetics (and training and expereince)can play a strong part in the gather...not necessarily disagreeing, just continuing the comments - this is fun and informative.

 

By the way, welcome Kevin...

 

"I finally realized that the first thing I needed to do was push her out so she wasn't always working with her nose in pressure."

 

Thinking about this, do you think strong eyed dogs "follow where thier nose is pointed" more than other dogs - and is this what we are trying to modify?

[blackacre]

Originally posted by PrairieFire:

"If you insisted on working him really far off contact and keeping him absolutely correct, he would eventually stall out when asked to walk up."

 

Andrea - would a small flank free up this dog, or did it take more? I've got one that small flanks help, generally, although he won't take an off pressure one without getting "harsher".

 

"If you allow a strong eyed dog to feel the sheep too early, they will be tight and stop short for the reasons I discussed earlier."

 

Well, I think this certainly CAN be the case - I've certainly seen it - but I also have known strong-eyed dogs who were natural and great outrunners - so I think those genetics (and training and expereince)can play a strong part in the gather...not necessarily disagreeing, just continuing the comments - this is fun and informative.

 

By the way, welcome Kevin...

 

"I finally realized that the first thing I needed to do was push her out so she wasn't always working with her nose in pressure."

 

Thinking about this, do you think strong eyed dogs "follow where thier nose is pointed" more than other dogs - and is this what we are trying to modify?

[blackacre]

Originally posted by PrairieFire:

Andrea - would a small flank free up this dog, or did it take more? I've got one that small flanks help, generally, although he won't take an off pressure one without getting "harsher".

Oops.

Hi Bill, actually the only thing that freed up this dog (or more, accurately, me) was selling him. Not only did he have eye, he was HARD AS HELL. (Another term having a very specific meaning, esp to me!) Like I say, he was beautifully trained, would take a small flank or a large one. Should have come with a 30 page manual. However, if he did not do it absolutely correctly (which for him had to be VERY correct) you were in trouble. If you stayed on him and wore him down, he would not come on, especially if the sheep were facing him. I would put this down to his eye, maybe I'm wrong.

Andrea

[blackacre]

PS I would really be curious to hear if anyone thinks you can have a really strong eyed dog that is a natural outrunner, as I've defined it above, not just a GOOD outrunner (often a mechanically trained outrun will be better than a natural one.)

A.

[concrete]

This is a good topic. This dog convinced me of the need to keep a log book on each dog. I tried so many things with her it's hard to remember now all the things that didn't work.

 

In my opinion, you also need to square off a strong eyed dog's flanks more than you would a plain dog that relies on its movement to some extent to move the sheep.You need to get this type of dog to disengage almost completely on a flank before re-establishing contact at the point chosen by you giving it a "there" or a walkup. Otherwise it is prone to slicing and establishing a point of contact just behind the optimum, say slightly BEHIND the shoulder rather than just at the shoulder. Has this been your experience with your dog?

I found that I had to be fanatical about this dogs flanks. A good square turn to start and I had to keep an eye out for that shoulder to start to dip in toward the sheep and down her and push her back out a little when it did. I really had to be focused to work with her. Eventually she got comfortable with yielding to the flight zone and I can relax a little more now.

I used to think she was weak too because she didn't want to come straight in at the top. She would stop short and try to come in just off the pressure. I think this too comes from too much eye because the more I get her freed up the less this occurs.

 

Thinking about this, do you think strong eyed dogs "follow where thier nose is pointed" more than other dogs - and is this what we are trying to modify?

Yes I do. I also love to see a dog fetching sheep to me with it's nose an inch or so off the ground moving back and forth keeping the sheep bunched together and online.

[Guest PrairieFire]

Well, Andrea, here's something I think...

 

When you say you "wore down" the hard dog - what's the chance you just pissed him off and he sat down on strike?

 

Of course, I don't know your dog, this is only "talk over a wee drap", but I have managed to upset my share of "hard" dogs - especially dogs with a great deal of experience, by seeming to "drill" them...when I should have been "freeing them up" by allowing some thought, thought under my control, but some leeway, perhaps...and I really don't mean this in the old "mechanical" argument way, it's more a state of thought than a method of control, if that makes any sense...

 

I have one now, a dog most would consider "hard" and with a great deal of "eye" - he's hill bred and spent his first two years working 3000 - 5000 ewes in the far north of Scotland (where the farmers claim to lose a dog a year to the cliffs is routine)...

 

This dog's sire won the International and his mum was the typical "too hard to trial" shepherd's dog...

 

He has been a real challenge for me - e'll move anything - especially if I let him pick the pace, which has included running sheep OVER the fetch panel, sending it flying - because I haven't, in the words of a scot's I know, "dug in my toes enough" on the fetch...

 

I've managed to stick him on the drive, when I've overcommanded him - he's the one who has responded to the "short flanks" I mentioned...but when I've stuck him, it's because I'm trying to control him a bit much - that REALLY fine line we've all experienced...and at those times he would look back at me, with a supreme look of disdain, and simply refuse to move until I got the command right.

 

We've been working on "obedience" because I think he needs it - but again, I'm trying to figure that line because I don't want to take his brains away - he's way too good for that.

 

That's why the "corrections" on sticking - he needs to listen, of course, even when he thinks I'm wrong...even if I am wrong.

 

As far as outruns, with all the eye this dog has, he's cleaned every park he's ever been in - including 850 yard outruns for me - and his old owner claimed he ran him at 1000 and up with no problem...he always comes in properly, and normally will stop on his own, but if I think he isn't going to stop, I better dig my toes in, quick...

 

Just some observations.

 

And by the way, under "edit post" you can delete a post...

[blackacre]

Originally posted by concrete: I also love to see a dog fetching sheep to me with it's nose an inch or so off the ground moving back and forth keeping the sheep bunched together and online. [/QB]

Well, to be really technical about it and to answer Bill's question at the same time, I think you want a strong eyed dog to turn its head right away on the flank and move in a straight line, ie with the hind end in line with the front, rather than have it moving in the requested direction crabwise ie with the front of the dog closer to the sheep than the rear as it flanks. To me the latter indicates that the dog has not broken off contact as required for a square flank. So, again technically, you do NOT want to see the dog doing what Kevin described on the fetch or anywhere else when asked for a flank.

A.

[Guest PrairieFire]

"I also love to see a dog fetching sheep to me with it's nose an inch or so off the ground moving back and forth keeping the sheep bunched together and online."

 

Oh, I like that - and wonder if this isn't one of the ways to easily describe a dog with eye vs. a loose eyed dog - the loose eyed dog needs to do more "body flopping" back and forth to manage the same thing the above does by "inching" it's nose...or, as Andrea mentions, turning it's head first, before the flank...

[blackacre]

Originally posted by PrairieFire:

Well, Andrea, here's something I think...

 

When you say you "wore down" the hard dog - what's the chance you just pissed him off and he sat down on strike?

None, zero, nada. The dog did not have an OUNCE, a milligram, a microgram of sulk in his body. Never seen another one like him for that. And he had lots of ideas of how to do a job, they just happened not to be mine most of the time.

A.