"All breed," Clicker Herding, and Dry Herding

[desertranger]

Dry Training? eHerding classes? Working a dog from my TV?. What about an eClicker or eSheep.

 

I wonder if androids dream of electronic sheep or electronic sheepdogs.

 

 

I found an appropriate icon.

 

[Ooky]

I agree with this. I wish more places offered it as a regular thing. I'd take advantage of it myself. I don't handle stock other than my own nearly enough and I'm always surprised when sheep don't act like mine.

 

I do all the time. It's the only real experience I have with livestock, but I have a good 10 years of it or so. Almost every open grassland parcel I've ever worked or surveyed on or researched on has been stocked with range cattle, and some with range sheep. I have to move them to get them out of my way for transects, to set up equipment where I need to, to shoo them away from said equipment (cows and especially calves are VERY curious), get them out of draws I need to delineate in, and hold them at gates somehow as I also drive a truck through (if I'm lucky someone's with me and at least I only have to hold the cattle while they move the truck, but not always).

 

I hate working around breeding bulls, though. They do scare me. Once I had a cooler out with me to hold insect samples. The cows kept coming over while my back was turned (sampling insects) and lick-lick-licking the cooler. So I would run at them to chase them off. I was hot and really needed to get my work done and I was getting mad, so I was beginning to put a lot of omph in my running back and shooing. Then I turned around at one point and there were like 40 cow/calf pairs all trying to lick my overturned cooler and walk off with individual insect samples!!!! ARGH! So I ran at them, and the whole herd parted like the red sea...

 

around the biggest bull ever (probably not really, but I had just charged him so I was SCARED). He snorted very angrily and I immediately looked down, turned on my heel, and walked away straight over the nearest hill.

 

Now I don't run at them. I sort of weave slowly back and forth on what I guess you could describe as really shallow flanks until they group and then gentle push. But I also don't usually have sensitive equipment and terrorized bugs anymore either.

[Tommy Coyote]

Dry Training? eHerding classes? Working a dog from my TV?. What about an eClicker or eSheep.

 

I wonder if androids dream of electronic sheep or electronic sheepdogs.

I found an appropriate icon.

 

Could you clicker train the sheep? Then you wouldn't have to train the dog at all. The dog could just sit inside and watch videos of the sheep.

[Sue R]

Could you clicker train the sheep? Then you wouldn't have to train the dog at all. The dog could just sit inside and watch videos of the sheep.

Hate to say it but sometimes, the sheep are the ones that appear trained, and without the benefit of a clicker. All you need to do is run a small course over and over, day in and day out. Sheep aren't dumb and they will learn. Now, if one was to clicker-train them, you could lay down some pretty perfect runs, and you wouldn't even need a dog!

[Smokjbc]

Hate to say it but sometimes, the sheep are the ones that appear trained, and without the benefit of a clicker. All you need to do is run a small course over and over, day in and day out. Sheep aren't dumb and they will learn. Now, if one was to clicker-train them, you could lay down some pretty perfect runs, and you wouldn't even need a dog!

 

Sometimes you don't even need that! A friend of mine had a really nice but not bottomless kinda ranch/cowdog and we were running a cow dog course at a state fair in Nevada. My little Rhett laid down a beautiful run up to the pen, for the first time I was going to be in the money! We didn't get the pen but our score up to that was good enough and and there was one dog to go. My friend took his ranch dog out there and got around the course with all the obstacles (it was time/points) and then it was his turn up to the pen but the whole course the cattle fought the dog and his time was much slower than mine. The cows did not want to go in and his dog, who was used to working in big pastures and nice cattle and not these evil, half wild cattle we had that night, got progressively beat as he tried to get them in the pen. Finally, the dog, trying to avoid a charging steer, ran into the pen and all three cows chased the dog into the pen, scoring didn't allow for dog entering the pen first so I was nudged out of my money spot . My friend felt bad enough about it that he paid for my entry fee the next time up though LOL.

[bcnewe2]

I have a clicker story...

I was helping a friend with her very ACK BC. This dog had less stocksence than a Yorkie.

But we tried. She talked me into running him in an ACK trial for her as she was handicapped and couldn't do it. So I agreed.

Well, it started out ok, the dog did a little outrun, since it was a beginner course I was walking with the sheep. We had gone through a few obsticals and I could hear murmurring in the crowd. I was just doing my thing watching the sheep out the corner of my eye, dog must be ok cause sheep were acting perfect. Everythiing was just going swimmingly. Then a look for the dog....WHAT?? no dog!! The dog was at the fence line smiling for some camera guy. The sheep were so trained that they were just following me right along. Would you believe the dog qualified? He got points off for being off contact, but that was it.

 

I was so embarrased that I just slipped out the gate and went to the car. I kept telling people "that's not my dog"!

Sad thing was that later I looked at my friends breeders web page and there was a "brag" about this dog getting a title. So glad it didn't mention my name. That was a day that the "walk of shame" took on a whole new meaning for me!

[Jeanne Joy]

Could you clicker train the sheep? Then you wouldn't have to train the dog at all. The dog could just sit inside and watch videos of the sheep.

 

Mary had a little lamb:

 

[Sue R]

I was just doing my thing watching the sheep out the corner of my eye, dog must be ok cause sheep were acting perfect. Everythiing was just going swimmingly. Then a look for the dog....WHAT?? no dog!! The dog was at the fence line smiling for some camera guy. The sheep were so trained that they were just following me right along. Would you believe the dog qualified? He got points off for being off contact, but that was it.

What a story! I can easily visualize it happening.

 

I was at a non-USBCHA event one time where the judge would take off 1/2 point out of 10 possible points for a particular part of the course - when the dog did not do anything remotely resembling the requirement for that segment of the course. Why? She didn't want to *discourage* the novice handlers! Well, if you can't be honest in your judging, why judge? You are doing no one any favors but just misleading people into thinking they and their dog did something right when they didn't.

 

I think that when stockwork becomes simply a sport, a hobby, or fun with Fido, without being a practical necessity, it begins to lose its validity. When that happens, I think it's a shame.

[Eileen Stein]

That was a day that the "walk of shame" took on a whole new meaning for me!

 

What a classic, hilarious story. I can see it too . . .

[Caroline Reichard]

What a classic, hilarious story. I can see it too . . .

 

 

Derek Scrimgeouer tells a wonderful story about setting up for the shed at a big trial. You have to take your time at the big shed, of course, and the dog must be patient while you set things up and fuss about. So Derek says that at some point he hears a few people laughing and talking in the stands, but he is busy thinking about the shed, so he doesn't pay it any mind. But as the sheep start to spread and he is ready to call the dog, he looks back over across to the sheep's heads to the dog, and... the dog, tired of waiting for him and from the big double lift and drive, has quietly gone to sleep.

 

It is funnier when told with a Scots accent from the current English National champion.

[Sue R]

Derek Scrimgeouer tells a wonderful story about setting up for the shed at a big trial. You have to take your time at the big shed, of course, and the dog must be patient while you set things up and fuss about. So Derek says that at some point he hears a few people laughing and talking in the stands, but he is busy thinking about the shed, so he doesn't pay it any mind. But as the sheep start to spread and he is ready to call the dog, he looks back over across to the sheep's heads to the dog, and... the dog, tired of waiting for him and from the big double lift and drive, has quietly gone to sleep.

 

It is funnier when told with a Scots accent from the current English National champion.

I hope someone would have this on video (and the afore-mentioned "walk of shame") so that we could all see it - although I have to say it's pretty funny in my imagination, too!

[bcnewe2]

Ohhhhh PLEAAASSE

Why would anyone want to see that type thing on video, I still have nightmares about it! I could only start laughing years later!

Thank doG my friends are kind hearted and only bring it up when we've been drinking a bit!

I bet my ACK friend bought the photo of her dog that day and still shows it around her circle telling of it's "qualifying" run that day, and I bet her story is not the same as mine!!

If nothing else these dogs have taught me how to fall in poo and come up laughing. It's a must when working these wonderful creatures.

[Debbie Meier]

the dog, tired of waiting for him and from the big double lift and drive, has quietly gone to sleep.

 

That makes me feel better about Jake pulling that move this past weekend, I was using him for demos, after sending him on a flank someone asked a question, I gave him a that'll do, lie down. Sometime during the course of the discussion Jake just stretched out and passed out, it caught my attention when I noticed fingers pointing and little laughs, the sheep had drifted all around him and were grazing. It would have been a good picture, "That's a working dog?". He was funny, I said his name to wake him, gave him a flank and he was back off to work.

 

I guess it demonstrated a definate on/off switch.

 

Deb

[desertranger]

Let me see. Border Collies can think. By training a BC to a clicker what you get is a non thinking push button dog.

 

I don't want a push button dog.

[bcnewe2]

By training a BC to a clicker what you get is a non thinking push button dog.

 

I think that might be a bit harsh. It's not clicker training that is bad. Some here on these boards use that method and it works wonderfully for them.

What it doesn't work for is stockwork training.

I'm not opposed to using or trying any(within reason) method if I see proof that it might help with my needs.

[Ooky]

Let me see. Border Collies can think. By training a BC to a clicker what you get is a non thinking push button dog.

 

I don't want a push button dog.

 

I also think this is pretty inaccurate. You could get a "push button dog" from doing a lot of things. But free shaping with the clicker gets Odin really thinking.

 

My issue is that I don't see where treats, play, clickers, or any of this has a role in stock training. I could admittedly be very wrong. But Laura Carson's post about gymnastics says it all to me. When you do gymnastics wrong, you are off balance, exposed to injury, or simply can't accomplish a certain element. There are things that must happen, corresponding to external rules (of physics, in the case of gymnastics, or of stock, in the case of stock work), and when it is right it is a rush and you know it. Rowing is sort of the same - you can struggle with an untrained crew but the second all of you sync up you FEEL the incredible push and know what is right.

 

Training my dog to pick up his toys and put them in his box is totally arbitrary. It is never going to initially feel RIGHT for him to do that unless I go out of my way to assign value to this arbitrary task (or others like it), which I easily can do with C/T. But does that mean it turns him into an unthinking robot when I train this? No. He is occupied, we are spending time together, and I am exercising his brain and reinforcing our relationship. Just differently. With clickers, I think one thing you are going for is trying to get your dog feel an innate rush of pleasure when he pleases you, and to set up a communication system they can understand. There are other ways to achieve in this in pet life but that does not mean C/T is robotic. JMO.

[desertranger]

Perhaps it's because:

1. Clickers are not used in my class. My trainer doesnt' like them
   
2. I see clickers being used every where. The park, street fair. Even when I walk into th epet stoor I hear them all over the place.
   
3. The pet store instructors seem to be clicking all the time.
   

I have asked around about clickers and seen a lot of people doing it wrong. No one is doing it like the bgooks say and I can't seem to find anyone who is doing it correctly according to some of the trainers.

[Brad]

Well, I use a clicker for all my shaping work, and for Rig's "circus tricks" Teaching a hand stand, or how to focus straight ahead instead of on me while coming off a contact would be very difficult, to me, without clickering. That being said, I can't really imagine (without a smirk on my face) using a clicker to train a dog to work sheep. But we don't work sheep, so I could be wrong

[juliepoudrier]

You would be right.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Warning: post of more than three inches.

 

I have to say I've used the clicker in a working context twice. This was Ben, who was nearly ruined by my early training on him. One of the things I did to him was to make him fearful of "lifting" stock - of any contact, in fact.

 

When I had my accident, and was stuck in a wheelchair, we raised a flock of ducklings. While they were still in a huge incubator in the house, we started moving them through the house to spend some time outside when it was warm. Ben being basically our only semi-useful dog at the time, it was his job.

 

I got the bright idea to lay down sheets in the living room (hardwood floors) and work the ducklings there with Ben. I noticed the problem with Ben avoiding the pressure point, as it stuck out like a sore thumb in that situation.

 

I couldn't lose anything and didn't really know what else to do. Today I could come up with a few other ways to help him, maybe, but he was really, really set in his ways.

 

I got the clicker out and simply clicked when the ducks turned to me while he was flanking. Within a couple of passes, he started seeking that place and holding it confidently. I stopped at that point because I was having trouble with timing and didn't want to screw him up.

 

Outside I did the same thing, later, on gentle lambs in the round pen. The impact, of course, was even stronger because sheep are more forgiving of my slow timing. I was able, in fact, to get him to stop both on and off balance, and walk in on command confidently at any angle regardless of where the pressure was, a HUGE problem previously.

 

The thing is, that Ben was an extremely natural and practical worker and I was incompetent - as far as Ben was concerned, when he gave up the wheel on sheep, it was a disaster (and he was right). The clicker was a way to fix that disconnect and we never looked back.

 

But the fact is, that it worked because it allowed Ben to give up control and let me give him some input. That's the nature of the clicker - it's a way for the human to say - "I'll tell you what to do" - working training is almost all about, "Go for it, and I'll tell you when to stop or what NOT to do."

 

If I had started Ben right I wouldn't have needed the clicker. In other pursuits Ben could read my mind. He never needed big corrections though he was very strongwilled and keen for the sheep. He only needed to know the task at hand - my mistake was not letting him work "for real" enough when he was developing his confidence and stock sense.

 

I was as guilty as the people with the long lines in my early training with Ben - amazingly, I never "broke" Ben completely (which is why I sought out in Ted, another from similar lines) but he ended up with insurmountable issues. I shudder now when I watch a young dog worked without being allowed to really work. I want to scream - "What are you afraid of?"

 

Anyway, that was my experience with clicker training. In five years since then, I've never found another use for it - not a use that could be accomplished much better by using the stock themselves and setting up the dog for success. Does that make sense?

[Wendy V]

Ah, Becca, what lovely paragraph breaks! Easy on the eyes.

[SoloRiver]

Clickers (or more generally the use of operant conditioning with reward markers) is the best way I know to teach a dog novel and arbitrary behaviors, which make up most of what most people train dogs to do.

 

While I think good sheepdog training uses the same principles of good training that underlie clicker training, the fact that the behavior is not arbitrary and that it does not involve extrinsic reward means that clickers themselves are pretty much useless for training a dog to work stock.

[agilityrunningdogs]

I just want to comment on Clicker Training inhibiting the Border Collie's ability to think. On the contrary, I think it enhances it. Luring with a treat with a is like using a GPS, most people, after following the GPS two or three times still don't know how to get to their destination without their "lure". Clicking on the other hand, is almost like having the word "yes" in your ear every time you make the right turn - you may get lost, but that's alright. You have to learn to embrace the struggle and accept the failure. By the time you reach where you need to go, you know the route and you could do it again fairly quickly.

 

I'm not an avid clicker trainer, I'm not shoving a clicker down the throat of the student's I help teach. If they show an intrest of what I'm doing with my own dog, I'll point them in the right direction. Your aversion to clickers is made very easy through your list - you've rarely (if ever, can't tell) seen clicker work done properly. It should be used a marker when shaping, which makes your dog thoughtful because it is thinking about what behaviours it could offer to make to please you. Mal is incredibly smart, I don't think that clicking when I'm happy has dumbed him down at all. If anything, it has brightened him. If I tell him drop, no matter what else is going on, I could hold a cookie above his head, or start sprinting in the other direction, he will drop. It's because his understanding of the word is so much greater than if I had spoon fed him and taken my treat and lured him into the down position. However, I agree with the consensus that clickering does not belong with herding stock.

 

Off my soapbox now.

[Sue R]

Clicking on the other hand, is almost like having the word "yes" in your ear every time you make the right turn...

Your comment here makes me ask something I have often wondered - if clicking is similar to saying "yes" (with good timing and loading and so forth), why don't people just say "yes"? You don't always have a clicker and, if you are like me, you are totally clicker-challenged and never get it right (or have it where and when you want it, and so forth). But, you always have your mouth and could say "yes" or "good" or something.

[Brad]

Your comment here makes me ask something I have often wondered - if clicking is similar to saying "yes" (with good timing and loading and so forth), why don't people just say "yes"? You don't always have a clicker and, if you are like me, you are totally clicker-challenged and never get it right (or have it where and when you want it, and so forth). But, you always have your mouth and could say "yes" or "good" or something.

 

Sue, you can just say yes, which is what I do if I find myself clickerless at some particular moment. The reason a clicker (properly clicked) is preferred is because it's easier to get the timing right, and there is no variance in tone that can happen with human speech. Both work, but I find a clicker for teaching "tricks" works better, at least for me. I find also that raising the dog on clicker makes him think harder when he's doing more complex things I don't use the clicker for (some agility work, etc).