Training goals and timelines

[Tea]

For me it really depends on the dog. And what I am currently doing with my sheep. As I have dogs to help me with my sheep operation. They are my friends but they are there to help me cut costs in hay by browsing loose, and by helping make my life easier.

 

I do alot of sorting because of the dairy aspect of my operation. We separate alot of little lambs every day.

 

The thing I try to always remember is to take my time. If something is not working, change the situation or the sheep. I try to help the dog when things are difficult. Sometimes I put the dog away and think about the situation.

 

 

When I get stuck I ask other farmers or trialers for help, but they are people I know and can watch in person. (And I try to remember my situation might not be the same as theirs.)

 

I like to train in the open.

 

About the stop I have had to work a couple of dogs with more stop, pause, so they would think.

 

And a couple that needed more flow so I didn't stop them much.

 

But I try to get them to work without me.

 

On the trails with 50 head I cannot see the back of the flock at all. So my dogs have to watch and think so we don't lose any lambs and stay close because of the deep forest.

 

I just got permission to graze a big chunk of clear land that is unfenced I am so happy about that!

 

My friend and my Grandpa tell me I talk too much!

[Lenajo]

like the e-collar idea Becca ROFL Can't you see the handler with one at the post? Wrong Flank Command ZZZST. Down at the wrong time ZZZST. Could the smell of buring hair and submissive urination at the post be the sign of some poor handling decisions before you? How gross....but finally, a good training use for the e-collar. People training!

 

Not sure I agree with the keen description. Some really keen dogs just want to shut the stock down - especially those with a lot of eye.

[Debbie Meier]

Not sure I agree with the keen description. Some really keen dogs just want to shut the stock down - especially those with a lot of eye.

 

It's interesting, below is a picture of Weasel's first expirence on stock, she went from doing what I really like to see, she naturally flanked freely around and held a drive line (btw, that was a cross drive line with a heavy draw toward the camera she was on). From there as she matured she went to trying to hold them up, then all the way to the other extream of wanting to chase and now she is coming back to where she was during her first expirence. I didn't think it had anything to do with keenness, it was just a pup/now young dog experimenting and I had to make sure that she had the most success with the option that was most useful. I just kept quiet and just discouraged the incorrect options until she started to land consistently back to the first option, then I began to label her actions. Will she be a trial dog? Don't know, her brother JJ is still leading the pack in that department.

 

Deb

 

[Lenajo]

I've not found those middle of training process things they present have a lot to do with what they are really about. Mostly at that point it's just moment to moment - excitement (whoohoo, sheep again!) or frustation from sheep/handler.

 

It think what most of us were talking about in terms of "first experiences" we were talking about that first 1-3 times on sheep. during which some of us want a down already there, and others here do not. others want to see a methodical pup and others want bttw charge.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Shoulda said some really keen dogs. I was only thinking of the Odin pictures. I'm on some serious painkillers due to putting a hawthorn thorn straight into my big toe joint. I'm basically agreeing with Lenajo here.

[Debbie Meier]

hawthorn thorn straight into my big toe joint

 

Ouch, that sounds really painful. Hope it gets better fast, joints not a good thing.

 

Deb

[Lana]

I don't want a "methodical" pup.

 

I think this discussion is a perfect example of why training discussion on the net are so tricky, and why many folks just give up trying.

 

I raise my pups to respect me, i want keen dogs and they need to have a lot of bottom or i wont keep them. I also have plenty of real work for them so i don't get freaked that having a down is going create a "methodical" mechanical biscuit eater.

 

Lana

[Debbie Meier]

Sorry Deb, call me dense, but I dont get a word of that. I could "stop" my dog say, from getting into the trash with a word, cause he knows he'd get in trouble if he went any further, that to me is a sign that I have done my work and have the dogs respect, and he understands the house rules, however, when faced with moving sheep, that doesnt work so well, so I dont believe just because Im able to stop my dog from getting into the trash, it means that he already has a stop on him, or would stop doing some thing on stock that I didnt want him to. When I talk about a stop, Im talking about a stop with a dog on stock, not stopping anything else. I find that notion a bit far fetched, and to get me round to that type of thinking, youd have to do a bit more splainin' for me to understand what your talking about.

 

That's ok Darci, somethings just arn't meant to be understood.

 

Deb

[1sheepdoggal]

That's ok Darci, somethings just arn't meant to be understood.

 

Deb

 

Well, then Im glad at least you understand it.

[Lenajo]

I don't recall linking methodical to mechanical biscuit eater in any of these posts, but if that's what you took from it....well there goes that internet clarity issue again.

 

To try to be more clear I don't feel methodical is an insult, and I rather like my young fellow who's that way. I also like his sister, who isn't. How they will be as adult workers - I'll hold judgement on that for a while. I've been satisfied with both their types as workers in the past - for farm work and for trialing.

 

I've personally not found any lack of bottom in a dog or human just because they didn't go bttw from the beginning. Methodical is not necessarily mechanical or weak. Keen and bttw is not necessarily full of bottom or power. Quality comes in many forms, and without such variety we'd all be bored. Bobby Dalziel commented (where I can't remember) that what Joe would think (finesse?) out, Wisp would tackle head on and knock out. Both good dogs, very much both work dogs with "bottom" as well as superb trial dogs. Two totally different working natures.

 

I do think a pup who is a thinking (methodical) is probably easier to influence negatively (or yes, make mechanical) with harsh tone and pressure. A bttw keen pup however, is more likely willing to ignore you to get what they want - becoming hard headed. Is either a bad thing? Is either pup anymore than what his handler created with the raw material given? It Depends never applied more.

 

I don't want a "methodical" pup.

 

I think this discussion is a perfect example of why training discussion on the net are so tricky, and why many folks just give up trying.

 

I raise my pups to respect me, i want keen dogs and they need to have a lot of bottom or i wont keep them. I also have plenty of real work for them so i don't get freaked that having a down is going create a "methodical" mechanical biscuit eater.

 

Lana

[Lizmo]

What does bttw stand for?

[Lana]

I've personally not found any lack of bottom in a dog or human just because they didn't go bttw from the beginning. Methodical is not necessarily mechanical or weak. Keen and bttw is not necessarily full of bottom or power. Quality comes in many forms, and without such variety we'd all be bored. Bobby Dalziel commented (where I can't remember) that what Joe would think (finesse?) out, Wisp would tackle head on and knock out. Both good dogs, very much both work dogs with "bottom" as well as superb trial dogs. Two totally different working natures.

 

I do think a pup who is a thinking (methodical) is probably easier to influence negatively (or yes, make mechanical) with harsh tone and pressure. A bttw keen pup however, is more likely willing to ignore you to get what they want - becoming hard headed. Is either a bad thing? Is either pup anymore than what his handler created with the raw material given? It Depends never applied more.

 

I agree with all of this Wendy. Goes to it is our job to find the key to that dog, not their job to fit into our style of training. I don't treat them all the same, other than to demand basic respect, and manners very young. Blue and Kell are as different as night and day, and Nell is much different as well. Heart or bottom is difficult to define, and we wont all agree on what it is when we see it.

 

Lana

[Debbie Meier]

Do you think it also depends on the individual trying to train the dog. Personally I like them to be capable of methodical and calm work, but my dogs will go bttw if things start getting tense, so in order to get the most out of initial training I want them to stay calm and think. Once they have the concepts I can let things get tense to test their reflexes and to see if they give the proper responses. I don't think these would be good dogs for someone that allowed excitement or thought they needed to create excitement to get enthusiasm, they would turn into little super amped heading or chasing machines, but they are good for making you learn...or give up....that's kinda your only choices.

 

In another conversation away from this board we talked about push dogs and pull dogs, another handler talked about not wanting a push dog, he could go and get a cup of coffee while they went out on their outrun (what he said not me). He would rather have a pull dog that he had to hold back. I think you may have to be cautious of the learning environment you set up for each type of dog but in different ways. You could end up with a push dog that flat out won't go or a pull dog that you can't stop, or vice versa. (I might be saying the same thing you are with different words, sorry)

 

Deb

 

 

I don't recall linking methodical to mechanical biscuit eater in any of these posts, but if that's what you took from it....well there goes that internet clarity issue again.

 

To try to be more clear I don't feel methodical is an insult, and I rather like my young fellow who's that way. I also like his sister, who isn't. How they will be as adult workers - I'll hold judgement on that for a while. I've been satisfied with both their types as workers in the past - for farm work and for trialing.

 

I've personally not found any lack of bottom in a dog or human just because they didn't go bttw from the beginning. Methodical is not necessarily mechanical or weak. Keen and bttw is not necessarily full of bottom or power. Quality comes in many forms, and without such variety we'd all be bored. Bobby Dalziel commented (where I can't remember) that what Joe would think (finesse?) out, Wisp would tackle head on and knock out. Both good dogs, very much both work dogs with "bottom" as well as superb trial dogs. Two totally different working natures.

 

I do think a pup who is a thinking (methodical) is probably easier to influence negatively (or yes, make mechanical) with harsh tone and pressure. A bttw keen pup however, is more likely willing to ignore you to get what they want - becoming hard headed. Is either a bad thing? Is either pup anymore than what his handler created with the raw material given? It Depends never applied more.

[PSmitty]

What does bttw stand for?

 

I know that one! I know that one!

 

bttw=balls to the wall

[Carson Crazies]

I do think a pup who is a thinking (methodical) is probably easier to influence negatively (or yes, make mechanical) with harsh tone and pressure. A bttw keen pup however, is more likely willing to ignore you to get what they want - becoming hard headed. Is either a bad thing? Is either pup anymore than what his handler created with the raw material given? It Depends never applied more.

 

I've got one scoop of each flavor right now (although I could argue that Mr. BTTW might even count as two scoops alone sometimes) and I would agree with you here. I think there's a very valuable place for each - at least for a handler like me. Years down the road when I *really* know what kind of dog I like I might feel differently, but so far it's been quite a ride with two drastically different kinds of dogs.

[Lenajo]

What does bttw stand for?

 

balls to the wall

[Lenajo]

I agree with all of this Wendy. Goes to it is our job to find the key to that dog, not their job to fit into our style of training. I don't treat them all the same, other than to demand basic respect, and manners very young. Blue and Kell are as different as night and day, and Nell is much different as well. Heart or bottom is difficult to define, and we wont all agree on what it is when we see it.

 

Lana

 

If that was clear, then maybe you can see why I'm not so keen on using a down on pups I'm starting, or even beginner dogs of people I help. I want to see what I have before I start commanding it. Not only is it a cleaner first impression regarding what I have and if the pup is ready, but it's doesn't set a precendent that stock is about obedience first, stock second - which is not what I want.

 

Respect is a very different issue than obedience.

 

ymwv (your mileage will vary)

[juliepoudrier]

If that was clear, then maybe you can see why I'm not so keen on using a down on pups I'm starting, or even beginner dogs of people I help. I want to see what I have before I start commanding it. Not only is it a cleaner first impression regarding what I have and if the pup is ready, but it's doesn't set a precendent that stock is about obedience first, stock second - which is not what I want.

 

Respect is a very different issue than obedience.

I agree with you Wendy, especially this part: "a precendent that stock is about obedience first, stock second - which is not what I want.'. I want to see what's there unencumbered by any "baggage." When I see what I've got, probably after the first 2-3 sessions, then I'll start training to get what I want (note that this doesn't mean I won't ask the dog for a stop in the first session, but I'm not going to worry a whole lot about one that doesn't stop when first asked). By the time I start training to get what I want I should know if the dog is more comfortable stopping on its feet or if I can ask for a full down. As I said, the one dog who had had a down drilled into it the first couple of times on stock was the dog who was reluctant to leave my feet. Well, reluctant isn't quite the right word--she wouldn't leave my feet *at all.* As I have two of her littermates, and another friend close by has a third, I knew that this wasn't typical of the litter. It came from someone deciding that the dog couldn't be loose around stock it was supposed to be working until the dog had a solid down (in this case, walking toward stock in a pen while on leash and repeatedly making the dog lie down--a prime example of a misguided person thinking that the dog must have a down before actually working stock). This is why I don't like absolutes. People tend to use those absolutes as crutches instead of evaluating each dog individually and then tailoring training and expectations to the individual.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

^^^ I agree. I'll just throw in with the general consensus that I do teach a down away from stock when they are little, but don't expect it or necessarily even want it on stock when we first go out. I'm glad the days of the panicky, "LIE DOWN!" when I didn't know what else to do are long gone. Like others, I do want/expect/teach general manners and respect from the pup before we work stock. And like Lana, mine always are around stock a lot before we go to work, which I think is a helpful thing. They are excited to see/work stock, but they've got a bit of sense about them in relation to the stock already,

A

[Lana]

"a precendent that stock is about obedience first, stock second - which is not what I want.'

 

Come on folks lets save that drumming for the folks who cant figure out how to keep a pup from bitting their pant leg.

 

I don't drill a down, or expect them to hear it the first few times. I do "put a down on a dog before i take it to stock" Period

 

 

Lana

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Lana,

 

You have great partnership with your dogs and don't ever forget it!!

 

Diane

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

"a precendent that stock is about obedience first, stock second - which is not what I want.'

 

Come on folks lets save that drumming for the folks who cant figure out how to keep a pup from bitting their pant leg.

 

I don't drill a down, or expect them to hear it the first few times. I do "put a down on a dog before i take it to stock" Period

Lana

Yep, and I would think you would with your type of dog and what you use them for. I know Bobby D quite well and he insists on a stop on the dog before he will take it any further. It is out of respect for the sheep and the handler/trainer so that the dog has the idea that he is working for someone else and not just himself. There are plenty of dogs out there who may not need a stop and are quite willing with just body pressure and movement to either flank off or stop the first time out. I have trained dogs like this and it makes my job very easy. I have also trained the other side of the coin without a stop and I won't be doing that any more. I'm too old and I go to the field to train a dog, not do a marathon. The first three weeks with a young dog is tough enough without fighting him all the time to stop. I find that a young dog will come to you much more readily from the stop than when he is flying around the sheep at 90 mph. I do not use a round pen but I do start in a 1/2 acre field with good fence. Gives the dog plenty of room to get where he feels he needs to be but still has some boundaries. So, really, in my opinion, it really depends on the type of dog you start as to how much control you want on him initially. I do not do any formal obedience on my pups as they grow up but they do get taught good manners and a stop and recall before they go to sheep. That's my way and I'm sure that there are lots of folks out there who have their way and it works quite well for them. It's like building a house. There's more than one way and more than one person to do it. We use what will give us the most bang for our buck, not necessarily the cheapest or the most expensive but what works the best for us. Bob

[Smokjbc]

Hi all,

 

What Mr. Stephens said ! Probably should let that be the last word but I have ten spare minutes before work....

 

I don't think using down at the beginning makes for mechanical dogs- in the hands of a person with good timing at least. As I start a new pup again, and talk to various people, it is amazing to me how different the advice can be. One person told me how important it was to get pace from the very beginning- as I watch a follower of that person with an already kinda mellow dog make it even less apt to come into pressure. Another, and this is where I'm going now-does not pace much at all until 2 years or so- worrying more about proper flanks and learning balance, and less about slowing down. I think I like that approach the best, so far- I've got quite a pushy little thing- but I can get a good down out of her without hurting her ability to cover sheep. I do get her up quickly but I also make a point in certain situations (penning, putting sheep away) that she lay off all pressure as soon as the sheep are through the gate and not get up. She's the type that would swing around and bring your sheep back out before they hit the back of the pen, so I take alot of care that she's patient there.

 

Rambling and trying to keep it short- but I just wanted to vote with the basic obedience is a good thing, combined with timing and knowledge. I think we all know not to insist on down in the beginnning when a dog is losing it's sheep- that sort of thing is what makes mechanical dogs IMHO.

[Lora]

I really enjoy this forum.....for the most part What I get, is the opportunity to hear how folks train their dogs. Then I get to think on it...and see how it applies to my dogs. Sort of like a free clinic....and I get to pick and choose what I want to try...or not. When I read that Lana puts a down on her dogs before they get to stock...I heard..."Lana puts a down on her dog off stock".....and by no means did I hear that I should or should not. Same with dogs being methodical.....and again regarding respect. Thank you Lana, a handler that has gone before me, for sharing what is on your mind as you begin to train your dogs. It really is good stuff to think about as I take my dogs to sheep! I can not tell you how much I appreciate it when people I respect take time to share how they train, answering questions I don't even know how to ask. I think this forum started so that "little hats" could sit and listen to "big hats" and think and learn. I wish more top open handlers would come and share......but I can certainly see why they don't!

 

The topic of "Training goals and timelines, How do you guys gauge it?" does not seem to have one "right" answer. I think that (no one right answer) is very apparent in the book "Top Trainers Talk about Starting a Sheepdog". There are similarities between some...but each trainer has their own way...and they all work for each trainer. I think there are many ways to train a dog.....and it is our journey to find our own. But that journey is made easier with top handlers sharing what they know.

 

My advice to the original poster.....get the book I mentioned....and there are a few DVDs that have great footage of dogs starting and the journey...Derek Scrimgeours Shepherds Pup comes to mind...where you get to see a lot of dogs in different places of training along the journey of heading to trained. Continue to work with people you respect...go to trials and watch how people handle their dogs.....learn, be open minded, you will find your way!

 

Respectfully and with much thought and appreciation......

[juliepoudrier]

I think the OP certainly has gotten a lot to think about. And I think that many of us were essentially saying the same thing, just in different ways. Isn't that what discussions are supposed to be? It seems that many of these discussions end up with someone feeling defensive or someone else feeling like they have to come to the defense, when in fact no one was attacking anyone in the first place. I think that's the very basic reason many people don't post to the training discussions. Lana said her piece about how she trains and what she expects. Others did the same. Hopefully the OP and any lurkers learned that people take different approaches, and that individual approaches evolve over time. How that turned into "We must defend one of our own" I'll never know. But those kinds of responses are the ones that really squelch discussion IMO.

 

J.