Training goals and timelines

[Debbie Meier]

I'm with Amelia sorta, but I don't care if the dog has a lie down, but the dog has to have a stop, and not just a physical stop, a mental stop (basically disengage from your intentions and listen to me a moment).

 

A dog can be lying down/or stopped but still mentally continuing to do what it pleases and blowing you off. To me that not's a true lie down or stop that's just a way to get pressure off the sheep before you let the dog continue, on it's own agenda, which is when I would consider that it turns into the so called "Devil's Crutch". Instead of teaching rate and pace and allowing the dog to make pressure adjustments you manually handle the pressure adjustments by stopping the dog and releasing it.

 

I think it's a matter of what you are looking for when you ask for or are teaching a lie down, just the physical action of lying down; or the dog stopping his mind and body, a stop along with the physical action of lying down.

 

I used to just require the action of lying down, all it served was a pause in the chaos and as soon as I released, the dog would continue on the mission he was on before I asked for the lie down, rather then taking the next command. What I needed was my dog to lie down and mentally stop too, it's a little tougher to get and the timing of the release has to be just right, or you risk blowing the dog out.

 

IMO it's easier to teach a good stop in the beginning then to wait and try to teach it later.

 

Deb

[Ooky]

Hello all,

 

THANK YOU for your responses and encouragement, and questions about how it went!! I am at work right now on lunch break so don't have time to upload and post pictures, but I will this evening.

 

Here is my take...

 

I had the wildest day. We were there most all of the day working with Odin or watching the trainer work her dogs, train her puppies, even working a border collie there for boarded training. It was so cool but my mind is spinning. Here is what I thought I knew about my dog:

 

A sweetheart who would never hurt a fly. Sensitive, occasionally fearful, easy going and completely biddable and well-trained. Very "herdy" as in "will stare", not very herdy in a show-interest-in-chasing sort of way. Sort of a pansy.

 

Here is what the trainer sees, and showed me (seeing is believing!), in my dog:

 

A hard, cheating dog. In no way sensitive, in fact takes a hard correction (or several in a row) and keeps right on ticking. Will crash a dog broke sheep into a fence. Completely loose-eyed and a natural head dog. Would have gripped a sheep to the ground without the trainer’s intervention. Tons of interest in the sheep, but lots of "f-you I don't have to listen to YOU" as well.

 

By the end of the lesson, she had him downing on command at balance (he downs on command at home very very well but in presence of the sheep most of his brains left his head, or so it seemed to me). I've personally never seen such insolence from him, or had him blow off a down on me before!

 

He came to balance with her help several times and paused himself each time, almost like he had found a very slight groove in the space right there. I saw it!! He stopped trying to go straight up the middle after a little bit of training. Then after a bit more training, his "f-you" attitude came in and he took one opportunity and crashed right through the sheep to the trainer. She threw her stick at his head several times over the course of the day, that was one of them.

 

Near the end, he was staying well back, usually *just* a bit too close of where balance would roughly be in that pen if she helped him, going around (and not straight up) in both directions, and always, always trying to head them off if the sheep moved off her. He did seem to be actively searching for balance to me near the end of the 2nd lesson right before his brain completely exploded. And to me he didn't look much like a BC at all while he did all this. He wasn't doing his starey/crouchy thing he does with the ball or what you see on border collie posters or whatever.

 

She had me correcting him pretty hard especially outside the pen, which was very difficult for me emotionally. But I totally trusted her and her experience and just tried to do what she asked me to do. However I cannot bring myself to alpha roll him and don't think its smart since I don't know what I'm doing. I think my questions regarding this matter are worthy of a whole separate post which I will put up shortly.

 

Again, thank you everyone! I am still reading this thread and trying to absorb everything! One thing is certain - I've got the bug And I do not think I have a world class dog here but that's ok, as I'm sure he'll be above my level!

[Lenajo]

basically disengage from your intentions and listen to me a moment

 

and that brings in the hardest part of dog training to me. You really don't want a dog disengaged from the sheep, you want him to team up with your and offer that deference to your wishes as part of the work he is offering on the sheep.

 

But getting that...not one, not the other...ay yi yi...that's a book I'd like to see published but I suspect is not meant to be written.

[Laurae]

There are handlers and first dogs that have reached very high success indeed. Pat Shannahan as mentioned with his Hannah for one. Pat trained Hannah from scratch. Read here And I also believe Amelia's first dog was her Price as well - I'm sure she'll answer that for sure.

 

I definitely agree that novice handlers and first dogs can go far; I was mostly agreeing that there are things a novice handler will change their mind about and evolve their thinking greatly about. (Duh, I guess. I'm just thinking back to the things I thought were so important when I began working my dog on stock and comparing that to where I am now. They've certainly changed a lot along the way, as I understood more and more of the big picture. And I know they'll continue to change, as I continue to gain more experience.)

 

ETA: Ooky, how exciting—it sounds like you're about to embark on the journey. So much of it is counter-intuituive to what you've learned about dogs before. (That sort of is the point I've been bumbling to make.)

[Debbie Meier]

and that brings in the hardest part of dog training to me. You really don't want a dog disengaged from the sheep, you want him to team up with your and offer that deference to your wishes as part of the work he is offering on the sheep.

 

But getting that...not one, not the other...ay yi yi...that's a book I'd like to see published but I suspect is not meant to be written.

 

Hey, half the battle is getting your mind wrapped around it.

 

Deb

[Lana]

I put a down on a dog before i take it to stock, i don't drill it, but they know it from a general manners around the ranch. I also want a dog to respect me enough that i can catch him after working stock, maybe not a recall, but be able to stop and see me in the picture.

 

Blue was my first dog, and Kell my second, i started several dogs after that and did not teach the down before stock. I just didn't like it and went back to the way i was taught with the first 2 dogs..by a handler i still take lessons from and admire.

 

I would put the down or no down in a to each his own category of training, i don't think having a down means you are not going to allow a dog to be natural, and visa versa.

 

Lana

[1sheepdoggal]

My Hank (11 months) is the first dog I got started without a lie down already in place, he had zip, zilch, nothing. After a few sessions of getting him to stop standing for just a second to a few seconds and then let him get back around the sheep, he has (we have) developed a lie down stop, and he is doing pretty darn good with it. most of the time he will lie down, some times he still stands, but he definitly stops. I was one that thought I HAD to have a stop on the dog before going to sheep, but Ive changed my point of view on that, though too, it could just depend on the dog, as to whether or not ya need one straight off.

[Debbie Meier]

My Hank (11 months) is the first dog I got started without a lie down already in place, he had zip, zilch, nothing. After a few sessions of getting him to stop standing for just a second to a few seconds and then let him get back around the sheep, he has (we have) developed a lie down stop, and he is doing pretty darn good with it. most of the time he will lie down, some times he still stands, but he definitly stops. I was one that thought I HAD to have a stop on the dog before going to sheep, but Ive changed my point of view on that, though too, it could just depend on the dog, as to whether or not ya need one straight off.

 

 

I think there is a misunderstanding as to what a stop is before going to stock, it does not have to be a lie down, it does not have to be a stand, it just has to be a stop, or a way to get the dog to stop.

 

Darci, if you could get Hank to stop from doing something you did not want without restraining him, he had a stop. A friend of mine has an Aussie that only can prevent her dog from doing things by holding on to his leash tight, she has no stop.

 

I'm bringing this up because we fell into the trap of believing that we could wait to put a stop on our dogs until the day we went to stock, thinking that a stop was a lie down. We know better now, it's not a lie down it's an ability to get the dog to stop, if you go to stock without the ability to get the dog stopped it's a wreck in a hurry. Worse yet, if the process that you use to try to get the dog stopped causes the opposite and instead acceleration it's even a bigger wreck. Those are the ones that when you call when they want to go do something and instead of stopping they run away faster, take that one to stock and try to stop it.

 

Deb

[1sheepdoggal]

I think there is a misunderstanding as to what a stop is before going to stock, it does not have to be a lie down, it does not have to be a stand, it just has to be a stop, or a way to get the dog to stop.

 

Darci, if you could get Hank to stop from doing something you did not want without restraining him, he had a stop. A friend of mine has an Aussie that only can prevent her dog from doing things by holding on to his leash tight, she has no stop.

 

I'm bringing this up because we fell into the trap of believing that we could wait to put a stop on our dogs until the day we went to stock, thinking that a stop was a lie down. We know better now, it's not a lie down it's an ability to get the dog to stop, if you go to stock without the ability to get the dog stopped it's a wreck in a hurry. Worse yet, if the process that you use to try to get the dog stopped causes the opposite and instead acceleration it's even a bigger wreck. Those are the ones that when you call when they want to go do something and instead of stopping they run away faster, take that one to stock and try to stop it.

 

Deb

 

Sorry Deb, call me dense, but I dont get a word of that. I could "stop" my dog say, from getting into the trash with a word, cause he knows he'd get in trouble if he went any further, that to me is a sign that I have done my work and have the dogs respect, and he understands the house rules, however, when faced with moving sheep, that doesnt work so well, so I dont believe just because Im able to stop my dog from getting into the trash, it means that he already has a stop on him, or would stop doing some thing on stock that I didnt want him to. When I talk about a stop, Im talking about a stop with a dog on stock, not stopping anything else. I find that notion a bit far fetched, and to get me round to that type of thinking, youd have to do a bit more splainin' for me to understand what your talking about.

[juliepoudrier]

Put me in the category of those who don't require a stop/lie down on a dog when it's first going to stock. My pups all learn "lie down" as a basic obedience/manners command off stock (along with sit and a recall and whatever else I might feel like teaching them for fun), but I don't expect that to translate into a stop or down *on stock,* especially not the first time or two. What I want to see when a youngster goes to sheep for the first time is keenness. I would worry about a young dog who is offering a stop too easily. I know I can get a stop later (it's more work to keen up the reluctant dog than it is to get a stop on a keen dog, IMO), so I don't really worry about it in the beginning.

 

I prefer the method of asking for a stop when the youngster is on balance and using a bit of body pressure to get that stop. The reward for a brief stop is to get to work the stock again. In my mind, this teaches a youngster that stopping isn't "punishment" and isn't the end of getting to work. To me this means that they learn to give that stop more quickly (that is, they accept a stop more quickly) because stopping doesn't mean the end of working. Of course, this is all predicated on having a good relationship with the dog to begin with, but I've also had success with this method with dogs I haven't raised who don't know me from Adam. The one dog I worked with who had been put on sheep on a leash and required to lie down repeatedly is the dog that was very reluctant to get off her belly and leave my feet when I first started working with her. I'm convinced that those early lessons in lie down made my job of getting her to go to stock that much more difficult.

 

I agree with whoever said it's a "to each his own" sort of thing. One thing I have learned with stockdog training is that there really are no absolutes.

 

J.

[Journey]

Again, thank you everyone! I am still reading this thread and trying to absorb everything! One thing is certain - I've got the bug And I do not think I have a world class dog here but that's ok, as I'm sure he'll be above my level!

 

Ah welcome! It's a bug that you have to learn to live with

 

Add me to the no "down" list to begin. My youngster showed me the first time out that not only was the down not needed (he did it on his own) it was not wanted in his case, sticky. He was showing signs of being sticky at 8 months, no way was I lying him down, we kept him up and kept him fluid.

 

So, where are your pictures??

[Ooky]

So, where are you pictures??

 

 

You guys, srsly, SO cool.

 

Here is is at first. Please feel free to laugh. Me and Laurie, the trainer, did, when I said I didn't think he would be very interested. I moved the sheep myself 2 steps and then we got this:

 

 

He was a cheap, dirty fighter, and crashed one ewe into the fence so bad! Approx 24 sec after he first got going:

 

 

"OK," says Laurie, "that's about enough mindless chasing." So she started waving the bag stick a lot (which she originally said she wasn't going to use too much since you can sometimes turn them off at first). I didn't really see it do much to him but at least he started chasing all of them at once:

 

 

Then, she started really showing him her stick. Odin was like, all this AND she haz a stick-bag! Whee!!

 

 

Have teeth will bite...

 

 

So, after taking several cheap shots and acting as if Laurie and I were not even on this earth, he got a bag-stick thrown right at his head - it is a hollow pipe stick and I heard this *plunk*. If he stopped running for an instant, I never saw it. He switch directions to try and get back to the head, but at a wider radius from the sheep. Here is is maybe 3 sec. after being clocked:

 

 

And she managed to get his brain back in his skull enough to end Round 1 on a fairly positive note:

 

 

However I will be following RoseAmy(? hope I remembered that right)'s thread on recall after work, b/c his normally extremely solid recall failed me, him coming near me at first but then veering off.

[Ooky]

Round 2, after about 3 hours rest, out of pen manners training, and walk-behind training for Odin. Oh, and corrections training for *me*. Using Odin as the not so excited participant. He was like, this is not so cool. They just stand around and talk and then beat up on me. Lame game, dude. But he mostly got teenagery and more obstinate than I've ever seen him, not shut down at all. Plus, I had him walking behind really well in not time at all, although I was fumbling with the leash and stick a lot.

 

We went back in:

 

 

He was staying much farther back this time - always looking for opportunities for cheap shots, but seeming to get that even if I'm a pushover, this lady was scary and he'd better try and figure out what was safe to do.

 

 

She was actually able, in between the occasional stick-bag javelin throw, to get him to respond to her body language in which way we was going to go:

 

 

He started coming up short almost at balance, and ever so slightly "hanging" there:

 

 

Even better this time:

 

 

And near the middle end (he actually kind of fell to pieces at the very end, making a big show like he was too hot even though his tongue wasn't spooning), she started downing him at the "groove" point. So the downing conversation today is so interesting! Her take was that he ws happy there for doing right, and it was good to mark something right and in control that he could recognize. He did look very happy in these downs.

 

 

But he's the opposite of sticky - in there he is like a shark that has to keep swimming to breathe!

 

Soo, thanks for letting me share my embarrassing crazy starting pics. I can't wait to go back.

[Journey]

Please feel free to laugh.

 

Oh no, I am not laughing at you, Odin or Laurie....I'm snickering because you appear to be quite infected with the "sheep" bug

 

Enjoy your lessons (when do you go back? Tomorrow??) the clinic will be here before you know it, have fun!

 

Karen

[Little Bo Boop]

Julie wrote

 

I would worry about a young dog who is offering a stop too easily. I know I can get a stop later (it's more work to keen up the reluctant dog than it is to get a stop on a keen dog, IMO), so I don't really worry about it in the beginning.

 

Bingo, I think you are exactly right ;-) But I don't think that is something that sinks in until you've trained (or tried to train ;-) ) a dog or two or three...I am by no means a great or seasoned dog trainer, but I know that with my first dog, it was all about the lie down, when you're a novice, and everything is going to hell, thats your crutch, 'Lie down!' With my Stella dog, because of her breeding, although she has a lie down, I very rarely use it, I chose to use a Stand command with her as I want her on her feet. As her training has progressed I've found that I've gone back and forth from "I wish she'd stop', to yikes!, why is she stopping so easily ;-) I talked to a a gal here in Texas, that is a very good handler and trainer, and she confirmed that its a fine line you have to walk, and you're always going back and forth from, if they're coming on too hard or fast, slowing them down....if they start to stop to readily, you have to back off of that and let them come on...lots of give and take...

 

Betty

[Lana]

Having some basic respect and obedience from a dog before you go to stock does not mean the dog will be less keen. My dogs are around stock their whole lives, and they have rules about stock long before they start training.

 

Lana

[Soda-pop]

In the first set of pictures, the next to last one is priceless, especially with the story.

 

From one noob to another: Have fun. There's a ton of it to be had!

[PSmitty]

Great pictures! It sounds like he did fine for his first time out. Pretty typical, too, with the forgetting his recall and/or down, diving and gripping. I don't think it means he has an "f-you" attitude, but then again, I wasn't there. But many dogs lose their head the first time. Seriously, I bet he did great!

 

And it goes without saying, but you're hooked, right?

 

PS. I saw three border collies recently have their first times on sheep. One of them got in the pen repeatedly and refused to even LOOK at the sheep. I'll take a dog with Odin's reaction any time over that!

[Journey]

Having some basic respect and obedience from a dog before you go to stock does not mean the dog will be less keen. My dogs are around stock their whole lives, and they have rules about stock long before they start training.

 

Lana

 

No, they won't be less keen, however, I think the key in what you wrote is

My dogs are around stock their whole lives

is where the difference lies. Dogs that are not around stock from the beginning, all day, everyday, will have a different "mind set". In the young keen dog not raised around stock the initial exposure is generally overwhelming and it will take a bit longer to settle their "mind". They aren't being disobedient or disrespectful, imo, they don't know how to act as it's new and part of their brain that hasn't been engaged previously has now been kicked into overdrive.

 

Karen

[juliepoudrier]

Having some basic respect and obedience from a dog before you go to stock does not mean the dog will be less keen. My dogs are around stock their whole lives, and they have rules about stock long before they start training.

 

Lana

But no one is saying the dog shouldn't have basic respect and obedience off stock. I very clearly stated that all my youngsters are taught basic manners, which includes a recall, sit, lie down and anything else I choose to teach them. I just don't think a lie down is an absolute must *on stock* at first, because IME (and as Ooky noted with Odin's off-stock rock-solid recall) most basic training goes right out the window when the dog is first introduced to stock. So while all my pups certainly knew "lie down" and would do so on command off stock, I never expect that to translate into a good lie down the first few times they are on stock. And as someone else noted, I'd rather have a dog who starts out like Odin than one I have to beg up onto the stock (the dog who's too eager to stop and lie down).

 

J.

[Lenajo]

You know....thinking about this a lot last night while I was feeding sheep. I think the biggest bridge you cross in sheepdogs is when you go from your standard response to anything new the dog presents as "lie down" to realizing the best thing to do was shut up and let/help the dog do his job.

 

Now why...has it taken years of clinicians, lessons, much of which included training _me_ to shut up and training dozens of dogs where I saw clearly that shutting up was my greatest tool I had for me to actually suddenly have that thought

 

What was it Ralph Pulfer said about talking to dogs - I think it was "talk, but talk sense!" Ralph's dogs had good stops when asked, but I don't remember him using it a lot.

 

I'm training 2 pups right now, 11 month old littermates. The male is methodical and deliberate, just wants to be right. Down him all the time and he'll worry about why it's happening. The female is fast and sharp, but wants to clap down hard on balance and it breaks her flow. Neither pup is disrepectful and both of them are trying their hearts out. Downing is the last thing either of them needs to do. We'll get that later as needed, if needed. Right now we are learning to work sheep.

 

eta - I'm still relapsing to "lie down" as a response to things at times....probably from my early training. Anybody got a cure for that?

[PSmitty]

*nods* Two things I am constantly being told by my trainer:

 

1) stop fighting your dog

2) don't say so much, which is her nice version of "shut up"

 

One day I may even get it.

[Lenajo]

*nods* Two things I am constantly being told by my trainer:

 

1) stop fighting your dog

2) don't say so much, which is her nice version of "shut up"

 

One day I may even get it.

 

 

ROFL One of the trainers who helped me a lot told me the best tool for his students by far was duct tape.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm still relapsing to "lie down" as a response to things at times....probably from my early training. Anybody got a cure for that?

 

E-collar.

 

I would not be worried about Odin's "attitude" and apparent lack of style. When a dog goes to stock, what you see is just one piece - it's rare to have a dog display all the right stuff right from the start. A really keen dog will only listen to his chase instinct because that's the most rewarding! But the other stuff is likely to be in there. You are correct though in addressing the lack of response - without that you can't go much further.

 

The purpose of training from this point is to give him opportunities to find those pieces and realize how good it feels to use those, too. And sometimes they get one piece and forget the others, or some of the others - that's okay too - eventually it all comes together and you'll have a dog that you can trust and work with.

 

If it makes you feel any better, this was Ted exactly a year ago at a clinic:

 

 

And here he is working lambs and ewes a couple of months ago, less than a year later:

 

 

Ted didn't have a ton of eye to begin with either but has matured into just enough for me.

[Debbie Meier]

A really keen dog will only listen to his chase instinct because that's the most rewarding!

 

Huh? How does that relate to keeness?

 

Deb