Tips for remembering directions

[JaderBug]

I was able to work Jade pretty much all this last weekend, which was a great opportunity but it's left me feeling lost in the training.

 

The biggest thing I need to tackle right now is me getting my directions right. I am looking for tips on *correctly* remembering which way 'go bye' and 'away' are when I give the command. I know it's just a practice thing, but I think I am screwing Jade up by giving her the wrong commands. My fiance came out with me to watch and he helped me realize what I'm doing. Typically, I'll do something like this: I want Jade to go around the sheep clockwise (go bye), but give her the 'away' command. Then, when she does 'away' like I told her to, I correct her and send her off in the direction I wanted her to go (go bye). Then when I realize that I messed up, I don't know what to do. I'm sure I'm leaving her massively confused and it's probably why she's not getting her directions as well as she probably would be if it weren't for me. I'm pretty confused myself.

 

Like I said, I'm sure it's fairly trivial and just takes time and practice, but I don't want to mess Jade up. Any tips for getting it right the first time?

[juliepoudrier]

The easiest way for me to remember directions is to think of it in terms of the dog's right and left. If you want the dog to go to her left--no matter where you are standing, that is, it's the same whether the dog is driving away from you or fetching to you--it's come bye. If you want the dog to go to her right it's away to me. A lot of folks seem to get hung up in the directions relative to them--the human--but if you think of it in terms of the dog it might be less confusing.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

If you're using go bye rather than come bye (which is what I do, as come means to come to me), then go bye is clockwise, and time goes by

A

[Laurae]

I TOTALLY feel your pain and did the exact same thing to Taz. Eventually, Jade will probably learn to cue off your body language rather than your commands (and then, once you're more solid on your commands and a bit more advanced in what you want her to do, you'll have to retrain her to understand the words again with no input from your body so she can take inside flanks and work off balance). It took me a long time to master this and I still sometimes make mistakes under pressure. This comes easier for some than it does for others, though. I think it's just building mental muscle memory—you have to do it often enough that you no longer have to translate dog should go clockwise > say "come bye" and dog should go counterclockwise > say "away to me." At some point, you'll just think of the way you want the dog to go and then the right commands will come out of your mouth. Becoming fluent with whistles helps some folks, although it was just another obstacle for me—for a long time, my thoughts went like dog should go clockwise > which is come bye > so blow the correct whistle. As you know, timing is everything when working dogs on stock, so my commands were often late. But the longer you do it, the more second nature it will become. To try to help myself along the way, I'd rehearse the correct flank commands in my mind throughout our time working or when I was watching another dog work (and I still do this sometimes). But I think just practice working your dog is the key.

[JaderBug]

If you're using go bye rather than come bye (which is what I do, as come means to come to me), then go bye is clockwise, and time goes by

A

 

That's how I've been taught with that, clockwise and such. If I stop and think about it, I can get it right, but sometimes by then it's too late to give a command or a sheep has gotten away or something... I guess I want to learn to do it without wasting time and having to think about it. Too much to expect?

[MickeyDogs]

I use the commands "come by" and "away" so the "c" in come by reminds me that come by is clockwise. Given this logic you'd think it could also be counter clockwise, but I don't let my mind go that far

 

It took me awhile for those commands to become automatic but I still find myself giving the wrong flank command (did I say I'm getting up there in age? ). Sometimes my dog takes my wrong flank and I at some point see the error of my ways, and other times she's more on the ball than I and goes where she's needed.

 

Probably Julies method of left & right is easier...

[Laurae]

I remember which is which by similar syllables. "Come (or go) bye" = clockwise = 2 syllables. "Away to me" = counterclockwise = 4 syllables.

[PSmitty]

I try to remember it like Julie does, that the dog's left is come-bye and dog's right is away. And then if I need help remembering (what do I mean, "if"? of course I need help remembering!), I think about my hands. If you make a "C" with your hand, you can only do it with the left. So, left=C=come-bye.

 

Did that make sense?

[JaderBug]

I do like the "C" thing, that does seem to make sense. however, if the dog is on the far side of the sheep and I want a 'go/come bye' they're still going the same direction, just the "C" is backwards. Probably shouldn't think of it that way, just confuse me

 

I will have to try Julie's right/left thing, maybe that will help

[jdarling]

Someone once told me to tie a red ribbon around my dog's left foot, and that would always be the "come bye" side. I never actually did the ribbon thing, but always pictured it on there.

 

Hang in there. It becomes second nature. And then when you're at a trial and you watch one of the big hats screw it up, it makes you feel just a tad bit better.

[red russel]

You are going to mess it up. We all did and we all sometimes do. Just less with time. Your dog is going to mess it up as well. Just less with time. I'm pretty positive you forgive Jade when she makes a mistake... make sure you forgive yourself as well. Highly likely Jade does. One thing about trying to remember your directions... as you stand there thinking about it the condition requiring you to flank your dog may have changed. Thinking about it messes with your timing. Give the flank. If you give the wrong one, fix things after. You will get better at it and the mistakes will go away.

[Debbie Meier]

If you have it right in your mind when you have time to think then it's just a matter of turning it to reflex, when you are not working sheep try using visualization, it's a good way to put yourself to sleep at night, instead of counting sheep, tune on your flanking commands. I visualize the dog flanking around the sheep, first identify it to myself and then begin swapping the dog back and forth with stops in between, pausing to check myself to make sure the dog in my mind was going the way I labled. That's the way I got quicker at my commands (though I still screw them up, but once your dog knows the commands she will teach you when she flanks the opposite direction that you wanted). Jake is now to the point when he gives me the flank I asked for he snaps with a sense of commitment, but when he is wrong he slides off half heartedly, which helps me to realize if I made the mistake or if he did, if I try to correct him when he was right I get this WTF look from him.

 

BTW, I switch from "go bye" to "come bye" because "come bye" flowed out easier for me, then I replaced my "come here" command with "here to me", Jake lets me know when I screw that up to, if I want to call him to me and I say come...immediately he jumps trying to figure out what he is supposed to be flanking.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Part of the reason I use left and right is because (I think) it's a more natural concept than clockwise/counterclockwise. If you think about it, how often in daily life do any of us think about things going clockwise or counterclockwise? I have a good friend who's a second grade teacher and they learn to tell time in her class, with the clock faces and all, but for most of us adults, it's all about being digital, so we don't even look at regular clock faces all that often, let along think in terms of going one way or the other around a circle. We do, however, generally use left/right a lot in our daily lives, so I think for those folks who are having trouble translating clockwise vs. counterclockwise, it's probably an easier step simply to see it as left and right. In the very beginning I may have done the whole clock thing, but I think I switched pretty quickly to left/right because it's just what made sense to me. Of course I also sometimes have trouble talking to other handlers because when I look at the stock and dog while standing at the post I awlways think of their direction of travel in relation to them and not to me, so for example if I say the sheep were heavy to the right on the fetch I'm referring to their right, not my right, which is often different from the way other folks refer to it....

 

Anyway, I think if you're not having to stop and think about a clock face but instead think "dog left" or "dog right" the commands will come more quickly and naturally with fewer mistakes. But I think ultimately every individual comes up with a method that works best for themselves. For now, I guess I just wouldn't be quick to correct a "wrong" flank until I was sure I was giving the correct flank.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

Part of the reason I use left and right is because (I think) it's a more natural concept than clockwise/counterclockwise. If you think about it, how often in daily life do any of us think about things going clockwise or counterclockwise?

 

Yup, I agree 100%. For me, stopping to try to remember which direction is clockwise and which is counterclockwise is difficult! Way harder than remembering that come bye=clockwise and away=counterclockwise. My mind just doesn't think in those terms, but left and right is natural to me. Thankfully I read where you gave this same advice on another board (ODO), Julie, and it helped me a lot to give up trying to remember clock/counterclock.

[Shoofly]

Here's an article about remembering flank commands --

http://shooflyfarm.blogspot.com/2008/04/re...k-commands.html

[NorthfieldNick]

Julie, I must be odd (not that that's anything new). When I stumble over my flank commands, I picture the dog running around a giant clock.

[stockdogranch]

I think the clockwise/counter clockwise thing makes sense for us fossils. We learned to tell time BEFORE there was such a thing as digital (Mickey's big hand and all that). So, if you're OLD, then the clock is a cool thing and you can relate.

 

A

Feeling older every minute

[Laurae]

I have a hard time telling my left from my right. It has never become automatic for me. I have to think about it every time. Driving (a car) is often a nightmare...sometimes driving sheep is, too

[DTrain]

If you think in terms of a clock, put the sheep in the middle of the clock and your balance point at noon and yourself at 6:00. Sit down and draw a diagram with what I describe and it will be easier to remember. I don't think in terms of the dogs right or left or my right or left in fact there is no right or left. There is to me only anti clockwise and clockwise and the commands associated, away to me and come-bye. No matter what direction the dog is facing or moving I want to ask for anti clockwise or clockwise. It helps me and I tend to do it anyway to move my body slightly in the direction I want to go. My best dog will follow my body language as much as my verbal or whistle commands. Again, think in terms of a clock with the sheep in the middle and then memorize the direction and command. It can also be helpful to use just three sheep, I still do it just for practice which is something I love to do with my dogs. When I first started I would work for hours with only three sheep as much to get me familiar as the dog. It is also good to remember that most dogs naturally want to take the shortest route to the sheep and a beginner dog will be more likely to want to do this. Have fun with it, buy yourself a new watch with big hands.

[MickeyDogs]

Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy my hand isn't THAT big!

 

Signed

Deb Mickey (yep, that's my name!)

[jdarling]

I think the clockwise/counter clockwise thing makes sense for us fossils. We learned to tell time BEFORE there was such a thing as digital (Mickey's big hand and all that). So, if you're OLD, then the clock is a cool thing and you can relate.

 

A

Feeling older every minute

 

Do you mean to tell me they are teaching kids to tell time on something other than a traditional clock now? Please oh please oh please tell me it's not true. My boss just told me the other day that he's heard of schools not teaching cursive handwriting because of the use of computers, and they are only teaching printing instead of the beautiful art of "handwriting." I think that's incredibly sad.

[DTrain]

Sorry, it is true. There is a young lady that lives in our area who comes to walk the dogs from time to time. She has no idea how to tell time unless it is digital. She has no idea what clockwise and counter clockwise may be. She has come out to watch me work the dogs and I have tried to explain what the commands mean but I can't relate them to digital and she does not get it. We have tried to teach her but so far it is not working because she feels it is useless, why would anyone want to tell time the way they did in the old days. I think this may be part of the problem when some handlers try to put right or left to the commands. It is just a habit with me no mater where my dog is or where the sheep are or where I am to think of everything in front of me as a clock. I taught a few simple herding sessions with some local folks and I was shocked how they wanted so badly to relate clockwise and anti clockwise to right or left.

[juliepoudrier]

Note my previous post wherein I stated that my neighbor the second-grade teacher teaches how to tell time on a regular clock. I've helped her grade papers on occasion, so I know for a fact this is true. I believe it's probably standard teaching, at least here in NC.

 

Anna,

I'm not young by any means--I think I just think about things differently than many people. I understand clockwise and counterclockwise very well, but my thought process goes faster if I think left/right. Maybe it's a right brain/left brain thing (no pun intended)....

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

My kids are learning on a clock too. We have a little practice clock we do exercises with every day as part of our warmup routine. This is from a public school curriculum (Saxon), so some PS kids must be learning this too.

 

I never got any of the "tricks". I can't verbalize spatial relationships AT ALL. I have to think it through every time - literally I have to run over it three or four times before I've decided which flank to use. When I was running a much more advanced dog, years ago, the only difference between when I started, and it would take a full second to dredge up a flank, and being able to keep up with my dog working an Open-sized course, was that I started reacting more fluently to what the sheep were doing and had plenty of time to think what word needed to come out of my mouth.

 

But, when I switch to whistle it becomes automatic. I have no problem connecting the note with what I want the dog to do. Talk about weird, huh?

 

What Red Russell said. Don't stress over it too much. Just keep hammering away at it - give a flank, and if it's the wrong one don't spend time agonizing over it. Just fix it. That's what I'm having to do right now - I got way out of practice and boy is it biting me now. But we're getting over it. Once I'm comfortable with verbal commands again I'll put whistles on Ted and we'll be fine then. But I want to be sure I can do the verbals too since there's such a disparity.

[stockdogranch]

So for me the right/left thing is confusing because if you, say, send the dog away--its first movement is off to the right, but as it continues around (that darn clock!), the movement eventually is to the left , at least to my addled brain. argghhh!

 

And maybe the purely digital thing is a CA thing. They also can't add without a calculator,

 

A