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Sheep herding training vs goat herding training


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Last week, I sent this email off.

 

>Good Afternoon,

>

> I am wanting to get a couple of dwarf goats for pets. We live out in

> the county-not in a town or city limits. But with that said, we still

> live in a subdivision, Xxxxx Xxxxx. Could I legally keep small goats

> as pets?

>

> If so, because they would be outdoor pets, would it be against any

> health code or regulations if I built their housing area under our

> deck? It's a large deck and our house sitting on a hill, so it's even

> high enough to stand up under.

>

> Thank you for your time,

> Brenda Xxxxxx

 

I received this email today.

 

I don't see any serious problems or violations provided you keep the

manure removed or flies and odor could become a serious problem. Also

use some bedding to absorb the urine and dispose of all this on a veg

garden or compost pile.

Let me know if you have more questions.

 

--

Mike Miller, Agricultural Extension Agent

North Carolina Cooperative Extension

Iredell County Center

PO Box 311, 444 Bristol Drive

Statesville, NC 28687

 

The way I see it, I've got the ok from the county. I am concerned about the escaping part though. One of our next door neighbor's has a dog aggressive dog. To my knowledge, Sada had gotten hold of (she goes for the throat) every dog in the subdivision except Jake. (I don't blame her, I blame the owner. To her credit, she did run off a coyote one time.) Is it possible to get a breed of goat and proper fencing so they would never escape? But that question might be moot.

 

In one of the books I got, it gave a small list of plants that are poisonous to goats. DH looked through the other book and found a more detailed list. After reading it thru, he said we had a number of those plants around here. Now I'm bummed out. Are some breeds more susceptible to plants than others? (FWIW, he also read we would be better off with sheep. I had to remind him we lived in a subdivision and I don't think we could get away with having a pet sheep. :rolleyes: )

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The way I see it, I've got the ok from the county. I am concerned about the escaping part though. One of our next door neighbor's has a dog aggressive dog. To my knowledge, Sada had gotten hold of (she goes for the throat) every dog in the subdivision except Jake. (I don't blame her, I blame the owner. To her credit, she did run off a coyote one time.) Is it possible to get a breed of goat and proper fencing so they would never escape? But that question might be moot.

 

In one of the books I got, it gave a small list of plants that are poisonous to goats. DH looked through the other book and found a more detailed list. After reading it thru, he said we had a number of those plants around here. Now I'm bummed out. Are some breeds more susceptible to plants than others? (FWIW, he also read we would be better off with sheep. I had to remind him we lived in a subdivision and I don't think we could get away with having a pet sheep. :rolleyes: )

 

ElectroNet works wonderfully as long as you keep it properly charged. My animals have never escaped from ElectroNet when it was properly charged. That said, the charger goes for $200, the battery around $40 and a 164' roll of fence is around $100. That would keep dogs, coyotes and other predators out.

 

In general, I think goats are too smart to eat poisonous plants. One think you do need to watch out for is that they don't eat any particular plant in excess as it can cause bloating and death.

 

Finally, while the county said "I don't see any serious problems or violations provided you keep the manure removed or flies and odor could become a serious problem." Your definition of keeping the manure removed" and that of your neighbors may be different. Doesn't your subdivision have rules and regulations? Most do. They would be recorded in the register of deeds for the county you live in.

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Goats can and will eat poisonous plants. Particularily of concern for subdivision goats would be rhododendrums. You extension agent can provide you with a list of poisonous plants for your area both wild and domestic.

 

The electric fence issue is a bigger problem in populated areas than smell. Let Little Susie get her hand on the netting, or Little Johnny brushes his bike against the wire and their parents are out in force. Warning signs are inadequete - you need to both be proactive and work with your neighbors so nobody is surprised. Also the chargers sufficiently strong to keep predators out are usually considered innappropriate for public areas. You might be better to consider permanent non-e fencing with reinforcment electric on the inside.

 

the simplest goats to start with commercial crossbreds already being produced for what you desire. Don't worry about breeds or registration papers. Look for dairy people concentrating on production amount and quality. Rural home school families growing their own food, back to basics farmers who sell surplus products at local markets, etc.

 

I've varied from 4 to 400 :rolleyes: goats for over 30 years now. They are different than sheep - in some ways more fragile, and in others far tougher. Working dogs with them is always entertaining, and I would say that they are never quite truly dogged to the point that they won't challange a new dog in at least once. Their movement is also very different than sheep, and somewhat from cattle. They don't flow their turns, tending to jerk the turns and needing a dog far higher on their head to change thier minds about a direction. It stimulate a dog to flank tight and fast - more than stimulate it they may require a dog do that to keep them moving. Taking that a full time goat dog back to sheep can be er...entertaining.

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Goats can and will eat poisonous plants. Particularily of concern for subdivision goats would be rhododendrums. You extension agent can provide you with a list of poisonous plants for your area both wild and domestic.

 

The electric fence issue is a bigger problem in populated areas than smell. Let Little Susie get her hand on the netting, or Little Johnny brushes his bike against the wire and their parents are out in force. Warning signs are inadequete - you need to both be proactive and work with your neighbors so nobody is surprised. Also the chargers sufficiently strong to keep predators out are usually considered innappropriate for public areas. You might be better to consider permanent non-e fencing with reinforcment electric on the inside.

 

I've had my goats out free-grazing among rhododendrums and other waxy-leaved plants and they eat around them ...

 

I didn't think of that problem with children and electric fence. ElectroNet looks very harmless ... until you touch it. Good point.

 

Another thing I like about working goats is they hold up longer in the heat than sheep.

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FWIW, he also read we would be better off with sheep. I had to remind him we lived in a subdivision and I don't think we could get away with having a pet sheep.

 

I dont understand why you dont think you could keep a few sheep. There are several varieties of small sheep, they dont stink, are quieter, are easier to keep and stay fenced, and quite frankly, are easier on the feed budget. I have full grow sheep that are no bigger than a goat, no horns, and they dont need to be sheared. As far as milking, they have a high yeild of milk, and I feel sure you could utilize it just as you would goats milk. If you like the look of goats more than sheep, the katahdins I have when shedded off for the summer look just like a goat. Sorry. Cant help but try to talk you out of goats, I cant stand them.

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If I had to choose between the species, and could only keep a few, I would pick sheep as well. The milk is far more palatable from a sheep and you get far more meat from each individual lamb than a goat kid. Also they are more respectful of fences, not swinging out of the trees and bushes forever in search of that next perfect bite of browse.

 

St Croix or some type of white hair sheep based on them are docile and quite milky. For a beginner I would find them ideal.

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If I had to choose between the species, and could only keep a few, I would pick sheep as well. The milk is far more palatable from a sheep and you get far more meat from each individual lamb than a goat kid. Also they are more respectful of fences, not swinging out of the trees and bushes forever in search of that next perfect bite of browse.

 

St Croix or some type of white hair sheep based on them are docile and quite milky. For a beginner I would find them ideal.

 

Tee hee, you are going to teach a sheep to jump up on a milking stand. :rolleyes::D

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Goats can and will eat poisonous plants. Particularily of concern for subdivision goats would be rhododendrums. You extension agent can provide you with a list of poisonous plants for your area both wild and domestic.

 

I would like to second this point. Although I already told Brenda this in a private message, I'm posting for anyone else who might be reading. My former housemate had a pregnant nubian doe. He let her out to graze in the yard and she ate some of the rhododendrons in the front yard. This was a well-fed goat, and there was plenty of other stuff to graze or browse, but she apparently went for the bushes when he wasn't paying attention. The end result was one very sick goat, who survived, and an aborted kid. It was not a pleasant experience, and he felt absolutely awful that his inattention caused the death of the kid.

 

As I mentioned to Brenda, young lambs learn what to eat and what to avoid from their dams. I assume goats are the same way. If you get a bottle baby, then chances are it hasn't learned what's good to eat and what's not while at its mama's side and so it might be more likely to make serious mistakes when it comes to poisonous plants.

 

I think Wendy's other point about livestock in subdivisions is a good one. What's acceptable and not in a subdivision might be wide open to the neighbors' interpretation. No matter what the actual codes say, I think I'd be inclined to talk with my near neighbors first and let them know of my plans and enlist their agreement up front so there won't be trouble or hard feelings later.

 

Michelle's point about the heat is also a good one, though I find that hair sheep hold up well too, certainly way better than wool sheep. My wool sheep pretty much don't get worked in the summer except for flock maintenance needs. But goats are more susceptible to extremes of cold or cold and wet than many sheep, so there's a trade-off no matter what you choose.

 

Also remember that if you're milking, what the sheep or goats eat can affect the taste of the milk. Our goats loved wild onions (and my sheep do too), and we would sometimes get onion-flavored milk (bleh!) if we weren't careful.

 

ETA: Michelle, my sheep that I bought from people who showed them and so are halter trained actually will step up onto a fitting stand when led up to it. And that sure makes life easy when it comes time to crutch before lambing....

 

J.

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Tee hee, you are going to teach a sheep to jump up on a milking stand. :rolleyes::D

 

It's actually quite easy Michelle. You train them just like you do goats. When I showed Suffolks and market lambs as a kid our lambs quickly learned to walk on a halter, get on the grooming stand (same thing as a milking stand essentailly), and be bathed and groomed. Dairy sheep operations use the same parlor methods as dairy cattle.

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I use to help a friend years ago milk his goats every day,(well he got the mornings and I helped in the evenings) we just used stainless steel buckets and a little wooden stool. I never noticed having any problem with my back, but then I was much younger then too. :rolleyes:

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Hahaha...bet you were one of those that used to think shearing looked "fun" too :rolleyes:

 

Wendy

 

I use to help a friend years ago milk his goats every day,(well he got the mornings and I helped in the evenings) we just used stainless steel buckets and a little wooden stool. I never noticed having any problem with my back, but then I was much younger then too. :D
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Naw, I knew better, Ive been shaving down matted pelts for a living for a long time now, but there was more than one reason I traded in my woolies for hair sheep!

 

Build one huh? What a concept! :rolleyes:

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Hahaha...bet you were one of those that used to think shearing looked "fun" too

 

Ahem. I still think shearing is fun. Hand shearing. Maybe I should learn to be a groomer? :rolleyes:

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We used to have 2 Alpines and hubby made a milk stand. Pretty easy and cheap. Milked into a stainless steel bowl and IMMEDIATELY put the milk into a glass jar and in the freezer for at least one hour. The only drawback is having to milk twice a day. We are retired so it was not a bad thing except we never got away. N

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I went online to the Register of Deeds to see if I could find our subdivsions regulations/restrictions. I couldn't find anything so I emailed them. I'm waiting on their reply.

 

I also emailed Mr. Miller requesting a list of plants in our area that are poisonous to goats and sheep. Darci, you're right. After wallowing in depression for a little while, I had the thought "If there are dwarf goats, why can't there be dwarf sheep???" so I googled it. (I would have posted earlier but our cable went down.) Depending on how the info goes (weighing pros and cons), I'm keeping these guys in mind as well. Shetland Sheep According to their website, the ewes only get up to 75-100 lbs. There are dogs in our subdivision that weigh that much!

 

Wendy, you're right too. Efencing is not an option. If necessary, we could use it as a reinforcement on the inside but our neighbor with the dog aggressive dog also has 5 grandkids with the youngest being around 2-3 yo.

 

I was hoping to get to the State Fair yesterday but thanks to a water heater, that got sidetracked. :rolleyes: We're going to try again today. There's also a goat farm just up the street with goats for sale. I'm going to give them a call and see if they will answer some of my questions. (I'm also making a list of questions to ask as well.)

 

Someone mentioned earlier they were glad I started this thread. (Sorry, I can't remember who it was off the top of my head.) I am too! You guys have really been informative!!

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Mr. Miller replied back.

 

Brenda,

 

Yes, I have a reference book on poisonous plants for livestock. It is

kind of scary to see all the possible plants that are poisonous. My

theory is that if you keep the goats (livestock) well fed then in most

cases they avoid the toxic plants. It is in times of drought, after the

first killing frost etc. that you need to be most careful.

One exception is wild cherry. After a storm any limbs or trees that are

blown down become toxic when they are in the wilted stage.

I disagree that sheep are hardier than goats but I guess it is debatable.

 

I knew that about the wild cherries and I had a feeling if I kept them fed, they might not forage as much.

 

Other opinions??

 

ETA: I should have stated "other opinions in regards to goats vs sheep and poisonous plants and hardiness".

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Brenda, I have St. Croix/ Katahdin sheep, and if my ewes are 75 lbs Id be very surprised, and they are fat and healthy. Granted, my ram is probably over 200 lbs, but the ewes have stayed pretty small in comparison. This years lambs are going to be on the small side as well, as they were born in Feb and March and arent much over 40 to 50 lbs right now with a full belly. I allowed them to self wean, so they stayed on their mommas longer than most would, so if your looking for small sheep, and dont want horns and shearing, good feet, and relativly good worm resistance, ya still might want to look at the Katahdins. I crossed with the St. Croix to try to get more meat on them, but the first cross of 50/50 hasnt shown that that is going to happen, and those ewes are 2 now, and this yrs lambs of thiers are still small to me. And again, they do have a good high yeild of milk, are easy lambers, and good moms even with trips and twins.

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Darci until a few years ago the Katahdin registry were using St Croix rams for upgrade. I know that because they were buying rams off the same breeder I was. They may still be. For performance imo they are virtually the same breed at this point - just allowing more variatoin of color in the Katahdin.

 

If you want to upgrade lamb carcass try something like a Texal ram on your ewes.

 

Brenda I shudder to how much a goat would have to eat to be uninterested in browsing on stuff :rolleyes:

 

Sheep or goats, just pick what you want and try it. Some experiementation is expected here :D

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Thanks for the tip Wendy, but Im staying away from the wool sheep. I had to cull pretty hard over the last couple of years to get my small herd with the proper hair type that shed off fully and slicked off nice for the summer. The drought helped me make some hard decisions with that last year, and it looks as though for some things, I choose well, and even though I hadnt achieved the weight/size I was looking to improve upon, this year, what I have been able to breed for and improve upon is a much more parasite resistant sheep, with the proper hair and good feet. Size isnt a big thing, as I dont cater to a large group of folks, just my own freezer and a few folks that like a sheep now and then for BBQ purposes, so size plays a less important roll for me right now, as opposed to developing easy keepers that can utilize thier feed to the utmost, and are less maintence on my part. So far, so good, the herd is looking good, and fall lambs are in the works, I hope to produce much the same with this lambing, and then I thought Id try out a dorper ram next year.

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