Sheep herding training vs goat herding training

[juliepoudrier]

Brenda,

I believe you can test for CAE and just make sure not to have any goats in your herd who test positive (it is passed from does to their kids through the milk). I grew up drinking unpasteurized goat's milk with no ill effects. (And generations of folks did the same with both cow and goat milk before our time.) If you have a healthy herd and practice sanitary milking techniques, your milk will probably be better quality than anything you can get at the store.

 

A note on pygmies--Michelle's experience has also been my experience. They are cute little buggers, but they can be very feisty. I have a good friend who kept several pygmies in with his sheep. If we decided to sort sheep off to work, the pygmies would stand like a welcoming committee near the gate of the pen into which we were sorting sheep, and then they would butt (really hard) each sheep as it came through the gate. Mean little critters.

 

J.

[Ooky]

We got Odin from a goat farm because we love goats and would pick them first to start a herd with if (when?) we ever get some land. Of course, I don't even know if Odin could work them, but I guess we could hope! This thread has been great. Thanks for all the info to all who responded, and Brenda, good luck with getting the goats - I think it sounds like a great idea if you can make it work.

[Shoofly]

Have you considered dairy sheep rather than goats?

 

I am so not a goat fan. Little buggers are on top of everything (which means goat poop on everything) and eat all kinds of stuff you'd rather they didn't, like say the wiring on your riding mower. Yes, experience speaking here...

[juliepoudrier]

Good point Robin. Also I don't think anyone mentioned what escape artists goats can be. When I was growing up we had to keep our nubians behind 6-foot-high woven wire, with hot wire at top and bottom. Smaller goats probably wouldn't need quite so high a fence, but consider that if you get goats that have been bottle raised, they will be more determined than ever to get over/through the fence so they can be where the humans are.

 

I like the idea of dairy sheep!

 

J.

[Shoofly]

There's also that business about boy goats wanting to rub on you and making it hard to walk around them, especially the pygmys that are just right height to send you flying.

[mbernard2424]

If money is an issue, which I think it is in this case, I doubt dairy sheep would be an option. If a good dairy goat costs around $200, imagine what a dairy sheep would cost, if you could even find such a creature.

 

Maybe it's because the goats I've had were not bottle fed, but I've never had a problem with a male goat rubbing on me ... hmmm Robin, maybe you were wearing goat attracting perfume.

[juliepoudrier]

I think purebreds of any sort are going to cost you a pretty penny, but sometimes you can find folks who will work with you on cost and the like. You can find dairy sheep--they are offered for sale regularly on one list I'm on. Also you don't absolutely have to have a traditional dairy breed if you're just milking for personal use--I know folks who milk whatever they have on hand, and crossbreds (sheep or goats) would work for this as well.

 

And that brings yet another thought to mind. If you are going to milk anything, then you need to consider that impact that will have on your time. If you want to go away on vacation in the middle of milking time, you can't just up and go without finding someone to do the milking for you. I have one friend who solved this problem by allowing the kid to nurse part time so that she didn't have to milk twice a day. And I imagine this would work if you planned it right. One reason I don't keep a critter here to provide milk is that I don't want to be chained to a once- or twice-daily milking routine.

 

And of course no one mentioned that to get milk, you've got to breed, so you also need to consider what you're going to do with the resulting kids or lambs.

 

It just keeps getting more and more complicated!

 

J.

[mbernard2424]

I think purebreds of any sort are going to cost you a pretty penny, but sometimes you can find folks who will work with you on cost and the like. You can find dairy sheep--they are offered for sale regularly on one list I'm on. Also you don't absolutely have to have a traditional dairy breed if you're just milking for personal use--I know folks who milk whatever they have on hand, and crossbreds (sheep or goats) would work for this as well.

 

Would you be willing to share that list information as I think I might be more interested in a dairy sheep than a goat at this point. Thanks!

[juliepoudrier]

Michelle,

It's the small ruminant marketing list out of Cornell, but I just tried Googling it and can't find anything that tells you how to join (I joined through a link provided by someone from yet another list--Sheep-L, I think--and for the life of me can't remember how I did it). Oh wait, I might have an idea on finding it. While I go look, here's a link I found with my first search: Sheep and goat marketing info that has a producer database where you can search by type of livestock (sheep or goat) and breed. It could be useful.

 

Okay, I still can't find how I accessed the list, but I did just have an e-mail come in from it. The e-mail is srmarketing-L@list.cornell.edu. Maybe you can e-mail the list and ask how to join? Anyway, there are always dairy goats for sale, and sheep are listed too, but the sheep and goat marketing link above might be a more practical way to find breeders closer by, since the Cornell list is largely populated by folks in the NY region.

 

J.

[OurBoys]

A number of good points have been brought up. Thank you!

 

We live on just a little over an acre and that includes the land the house sits on so I don't think I have enough room for sheep.

 

We live out in the county-not in any town or city limits. There are a number of horse stables, goat and cattle ranches around us (I can't remember, at the moment, if there are any sheep) but we do live in a subdivision. Because of that, I've emailed the county to see if it would be against any code or regulation to house them under the deck. Hopefully, someone will get back with me by next week.

 

Ok, pygmies are out. Because of our land size, I feel the average size diary goat would be too large. I'm under the impression a smaller breed eats less. I'm thinking a 4' fence might contain them too. I'll find that out next week when I visit that farm. And I'm glad you brought up the breeding point, Julie! (I was wondering if does had to be bred to produce milk but I thought I would get laughed off the boards if I asked. ) If I get 2 does, I won't have to worry about breeding and learning how to milk for now. Once I feel comfortable about caring for the does, I can always get a buck later. The does will also be use to Jake moving them (maybe, hopefully) so that part won't effect their milk.

 

Now I'm wondering if I should go with registered goats or unregistered. The unregistered are less expensive but how healthy are they? When we go to the farm next week, I'll ask them if they use help from volunteers. If I can go up there every couple of weeks and help work the farm and goats, not only will I learn a lot about the care of them but maybe they would help me with payment plans or something. If not, the experience itself would be valuable. And I can always check into retired dairy dwarves.

[juliepoudrier]

Brenda,

Registered vs. unregistered has no real bearing on health of the animal. Animal husbandry practices at the farm where the animals live will determine the health of the animals you acquire. Most folks would caution you against buying at sale barns (livestock auctions) because of the possibility of disease transmission while in those places. While you're still in the looking stage, get yourself some good books or other resources on raising goats. Storey's Guide to Raising Goats might be a good place to start. You can find it on the Internet or at your local Tractor Supply store. If you educate yourself about the possible diseases and other problems of goats then when it comes time to buy goats, you'll better be able to ask appropriate questions and know what to look for when looking at a goat you might want to purchase. In other words, educate yourself on what constitutes good health and structure in a dairy goat (udder will be very important) and then go around and look at examples (good and bad) of the goats that interest you. Try attending some of the shows at local fairs--often the judges will explain what they're looking for in a winning animal, and that will help to educate you as well. Also talk to people who raise dairy goats and find out what reasons there are for culling an animal. In the case of dairy animals, since you have to breed to get milk, they are more likely to have kids or older does for sale simply because they need to keep their total numbers down (vs. getting rid of stock that's not producing well, or isn't thrifty, or are bad milkers, or have had mastitis, etc., but all of these things could be reason for selling as well, and you don't want to get stuck with someone else's problem).

 

I'm guessing that if you are in a subdivision there might be rules against livestock, but the only way to find out is to ask. Goats are not quiet creatures, and their noise, if nothing else, may be a source for neighbor complaints.

 

Oh, and with just a couple does, they'll probably happily follow you back and forth from shelter to fenced area, with or without a dog. Where Jake will come most in handy is when they escape and are over at the neighbor's eating the flowerbeds....

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I have a friend who milks sheep. Their cheese is to die for! They do a fresh cheese just for them and their friends as they are still learning. They raise St. Croix. You can milk any breed that has "milky" individuals. I'm astonished that she milks hair sheep but I've seen her sheep and they are nice for what they do currently.

 

She is interested in getting Dorsets next. There are some lines/crosses that are excellent dairy sheep. I had one with equipment as suitable for milking as the average dairy goat. There are a few other breeds or crosses that do just fine. If you start going around to fairs, especially the bigger ones, make sure you also go on the sheep days to talk to exhibitors and local farmers. There's also a big open farm day coming up (Rainbow Meadows, right?) where I saw a few small ruminant dairy/milk product vendors last year.

 

You can keep small ruminants in a smallish space if you understand that what you are doing is essentially dry lotting them. Raising dairy animals on grass is wonderful, but a lot of dairy people just feed good hay and concentrated feeds because dairy animals are big eaters no matter how small they are!

 

I knew a guy when I lived in Stokes County, who kept 100 brood ewes and lambs at their side, plus a ram flock, on ten acres. He rotated around the space he had for sanitary reasons, but he brought in feed pretty much year round. It didn't matter to him - he raised show lambs (the sound you just heard was Bill Fosher rolling his eyes ).

 

I think starting out, you have to have a direction for what you are doing, but realize that unless you are fabulously wealthy and have really good mentors, you will not start out doing exactly what you want, right from the start. My friends who now are milking their hair sheep, started out with lambs and didn't like them when they grew out. They went to the St. Croix from someone else, and had to start over again because they were lambs. Then I guess you don't start out milking the first time around. Then it took some time to figure out the right way to work with the St. Croix milk - there's not a lot of information on making sheep cheese.

 

All in all, she's had to wait about three years for the first cheese! I started out with a goal of having a grass-fed lamb flock with minimal worming and ten years later I'm probably two more years from realizing that goal. Assuming we don't have to move again and start again with the ewes.

 

So you are right to be patient and gather information from experts before proceeding.

 

Oh, and it's true about the escaping and bumping/rubbing. Goats get to be knee knockers way faster than sheep. But they don't cling to you like sheep do - they will turn and deliberately knock you if they realize that it stops the action briefly. Goats are really, really clever and not team players - sheep can be smart too but they will accept "leadership" where goats' motto is - Every caprine for himself!

[OurBoys]

Thanks for the Tractor Supply tip. After going to a large chain bookstore I knew I was going to have to buy my books via the Internet but I didn't know Tractor Supply also sold them. That bookstore was a joke. The only 2 books they had on goats was The Goat Handbook by Ulrich Jaudas and Seyedmehdi Mobini and Hobby Farms Goats, Small-Scale Herding for Pleasure and Profit by Sue Weaver. Since those 2 were the only ones they had, I bought them. And they had nothing on training in regards to dog herding! I had checked the Books and Video section on these boards before going and thought I would try & get Talking Sheepdog. When I told the guy I was looking for a book on herding, he looked on his computer and told me they had a book about herds of llamas and alpacas. When I gave him the title of the book, he walked me over to the dog section and pulled out a book on Shelties! I said "No, the name of the book is Talking Sheepdog-not Shetland Sheepdogs". He then asked me if that was a breed!! I told him "You know what? I've got these 2 books here. I think that'll be enough to keep me busy for awhile."

 

Between cows mooing, donkey's baying, owls hooting, beaver's slapping their tails and falling trees and doG knows what those other sounds are from, I don't see how anyone could get upset over a couple of goats. Besides, after dark, the crickets and frogs down by the beaver pond are so loud sometimes, it's hard to hear yourself think. Those alone could drowned out the goat noise. And with those houses being built in the new subdivision going up behind us, sometimes they work 6-7 days a week with very loud equipment. If the county says it's ok, I'm going for it. If anyone says anything, I'm telling them they are my pets. I might be wrong but I think according the the NC Dept of Ag, dogs are also considered livestock. But to be honest with you, I don't think anyone will give us a hard time. There are a couple of snobs in the subdivision but as long as I keep the place clean, they'll be ok. Everyone's house is pretty well insulated too. A few years ago a guy ran the stop sign on the road across from our street. When he hit the curve on our road, he kept going straight. Trashed his car pretty good and totally destroyed a neighbor's custom made mailbox. Even though the wreck happened in the middle of the night, the only 2 people who heard it was the neighbor who lost the mailbox and me. And when I heard it, I thought it had happened at the intersection.

 

Becca, I don't know if I'm weird or inexperienced (probably both) but I love the idea of having smart goats!

[ItsADogsLyfe]

I have always liked goats. I raised them for many years and my children were all raised on goat milk. We always drank it raw, but I did have a doe with CAE at one time and I pasteurized her milk for her babies and us. No ill effects that I am aware of, but that was about 10 years ago. My goats were not escape artists and I have had quite a few through the years. It was a wether sheep that I had the most trouble with. Goats are more thinkers than sheep and they will try to figure out things but I like that too. The goats will follow you but if they see something they want, they can be very hard to get back without a dog. I had goats long before I got border collies and if my goats took off for some tree or something it was hard to pry them away. My first border collie, Seth, who is now almost 9 years, would work my goats, sheep and chickens. Each species has their quirks, but he adjusted and learned how to work each one. He'd round up the chickens, then after they were all put away he'd go sniff out all the bushes and other places where one might be hiding. I'm moving this weekend, to east TN and hopefully I will find a place where I can have sheep and goats again. Hopefully I'll get to meet some of you east coasters that I've been reading all these years.

 

Here is the after picture of Meg with the angora mama...

 

[Sue R]

Joan - I guess you and I share some common history! We had grade Nubians that we milked for some years, raising our four children on raw goat milk. We never had CAE in our small herd and, when we got a buck, he was fed on our colostrum and milk from birth, to avoid CAE.

 

We never had fencing issues except when we tried to rely on woven wire alone, and it was older fencing. We had to bolster the fencing in places but, once that was done, no problems. We found a single strand of electric along the bottom kept the goats in. In later years, we had a three-strand electric fence and, as long as we kept it on reasonably often, never had problems with goats getting out.

 

Well, that is, except a few occasionals for one or two that were quite elderly and, at that stage in their life, quite avid for good food that they did not find in sufficient quantity or quality in their pasture. In other words, they were getting desperate for peaceful, abundant feeding.

 

I miss having my dairy goat ladies - I don't miss having a buck, producing all those absolutely charming and amusing kids (that would be butchered - no breeding, no milk, so it was essential to have pregnant goats, and then do something useful and responsible with all those kids - my children grew up with goat milk, goat butter, and goat meat), and being tied down every morning and evening at predictable times for milking (and unpredictable times for kidding).

 

I loved those goats.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I used to have several goats with my sheep flock. Last yr, when I joined the Scrapies program I got rid of my goats. I have had goats for seven years and got them to train my dogs on (as well as the sheep and cattle)

 

I had dairy, meat and dwarf goats. They are a real bugger to work dogs on but my dogs are better because of them. The goats would climb on stumps etc to get away from the dogs, or rear up and butt or just not move at all. Some would take a run at the dogs. None were easy and made it hard for the dogs to work them

 

I made all of my dogs work them. The goats wouldn't flock and if they did they would try to drift out of the flock.

 

Some of my dogs would ignore them but in the end they would work them. The dogs had to learn to stand up to the goats, do head or heel grips and try to work several goats who would then run off in various directions

 

It made a dogs a heck of a lot better dogs and I really enjoyed the goats.

 

Howver I started all of my dogs on sheep.

 

Diane

[OurBoys]

Books are good but there's nothing like experience. I thank everyone replying about CAE.

 

Michelle, thanks for the info on the shelters but I don't think they will work. I read there should be some circulation in the housing and those don't have windows. And they look like they are made from soft material. Since they have been building the subdivision behind us, I haven't heard any coyotes. There's been reports on tv about the town just north of us being suddenly invaded with a heavy coyote population but just in case there are still some around here, I would feel better if they slept in something made of wood. Of course, they might prefer a lean-to but for now that's what I have in my mind.

[mbernard2424]

Books are good but there's nothing like experience. I thank everyone replying about CAE.

 

Michelle, thanks for the info on the shelters but I don't think they will work. I read there should be some circulation in the housing and those don't have windows. And they look like they are made from soft material. Since they have been building the subdivision behind us, I haven't heard any coyotes. There's been reports on tv about the town just north of us being suddenly invaded with a heavy coyote population but just in case there are still some around here, I would feel better if they slept in something made of wood. Of course, they might prefer a lean-to but for now that's what I have in my mind.

 

Shelter Logic makes a lot of different shelters, some with plenty of ventilation.

 

I just put a deposit on an Alpine dairy goat who is in with a buck now. Hopefully by February or March I'll be milkiing!

[mbernard2424]

Some of my dogs would ignore them but in the end they would work them. The dogs had to learn to stand up to the goats, do head or heel grips and try to work several goats who would then run off in various directions

 

It made a dogs a heck of a lot better dogs and I really enjoyed the goats.

 

Howver I started all of my dogs on sheep.

 

Diane

 

I agree Diane. I think goats teach a dog a lot, as do sheep, ducks and cattle. I like that my dogs are well-versed enough so that they can work all different types of stock. I think it makes them more well-rounded.

[ragtimedog]

I'm not sure, but I think nannies and wethers are not any worse than any other livestock as far as smell. My friend that I mentioned keeps her nannies and wether kids in a pen right near the house, and there's no noticeable goat smell. Actually, I think my wool sheep smell worse because their urine catches in the fleece.

 

I know the difference, because one year she kept a small group of bucks kids in a shelter across the way and you could smell it in the house with the windows and doors shut!

Oh, yeah, bucks are bad. I have a pygmy who is particularly stinky this time of year. My Angora buck, however, has next to no odor. I don't really notice any smell from the girls and wethers.

I do use my dogs to bring the goats in, particularly when they manage to get out, which is pretty often. They generally just head for their pen. Once they get into a routine, I think you'll find even your cat could herd them in. (Well, maybe not a cat.)

L

[ragtimedog]

opps. I didn't see the rest of the posts...just some additional info. My pygmy goats can jump fences the Alpine wouldn't dream of jumping. To top it off, the can wiggle through things that other goats wouldn't even try. But I trained my goats to respect dogs and she flies for the pen when she sees a dog out. I( didn't want her to think a stray dog or coyote was just another dog to be ignored!)

Also I looked at the Logic shelter. In my experience, the goats would eat the cover. At least mine eat, stand on and put holes in tarps.

[Cynthia P]

Besides being much more difficult to herd...they can get out of anywhere..We had some triplets last year that ended up on our back porch every day.

 

3 month old boar does

 

[juliepoudrier]

Besides being much more difficult to herd...they can get out of anywhere..We had some triplets last year that ended up on our back porch every day.

That's part of their charm isn't it? I can remember having great fun playing with the kids from our milking does when we were growing up. I think lambs would be much more inclined to stay closer to the flock than to go out seeking adventure the way goat kids do!

 

J.

[ragtimedog]

Besides being much more difficult to herd...they can get out of anywhere..We had some triplets last year that ended up on our back porch every day.

 

3 month old boar does

 

OOOOO too cute. How much of the seat did they eat?

L

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I remember a few year ago I had some guys come in with their backhoe and do some work for me. I told them that I had goats and to lock up their cabs when they were not in their rigs. One ignored me. One day, the two guys came up to the house and one told me that the goats had jumped into his cab and ate his lunch. He was not happy.

 

I asked him if he had locked up his cab like I told him. He said no and then I told him that I warned him and he was lucky that they only ate his lunch. His friend laughed at him as he locked up his cab and no goats got his lunch. I made a lunch for the lunchless guy and from then on, he locked his cab. The minute he would leave his rig, the goats would run to it, no doubt looking for a tasty free lunch

 

After a while, he forgave the goats and would bring food to them. we used to laugh about him "not listening to a girl" and "being bested by a goat"

 

Diane