to wear or not to wear, that's the question...

[Debbie Meier]

Hello Deb,

Well, I imagine that makes sense, IF you are simply training your dog for trialing. However, IMO, to develop a solid training foundation, a dog should be taught to quietly wear the sheep and calmly work close at hand. Different stokes, I guess.

 

Regards,

nancy

 

Hmm, I guess I don't see that what I am doing is not putting a good foundation on the dog. The key to driving is that the dog has to balance the sheep himself, if the dog can do it while going away from you won't making him do it all the time end up repairing your wear problem, eventually you can have him drive them to you, if he stops balancing (controlling, speed and direction) the sheep himself and sucks into you he's wrong. If you think about it, when you tell the dog he is putting too much pressure on the sheep when they are between you and him and correct him you are trying to teach him to administer just enough pressure to control them not to rely on you being a back stop, basically balancing them himself, your just there. It's just a different way of approaching it.

 

Deb

[kelpiegirl]

Let me go look....

Okay, we were heading in that direction- had made a turn (clockwise) a bit before. Behind me was the pen where we got the sheep from. Sheep were with me- this was wearing. Yeah, she was tight there- causing a cfrunk. I have some shots of her doing close work, and it is good. I tell you, it's me. I know it.

 

Okay here's three more. We were *trying* to get all three head through the race. I was in a bad place. I thought I had them lined up to go straight in, but they were lined up to the left

 

Then I flanked her to try and salvage some of it (with my big butt right in the way)

Then we got one through

Then one took off to the exhaust, which Lucy stopped

 

So, that's it. I think this dog prefers this sort of work- you know, where there are things there- gates, chutes, that sort of thing.

 

Hey Julie,

 

Can you describe more what is going on in that second picture in terms of where Lucy and the sheep came from and how far away they were to start with? Which direction is "that direction"? (Sorry, i'm sure I"m being dense here)

 

I don't have the experience to actually address your question about wearing (which I always think is spelled "waring".... ) , but in that second picture, it looks like everything was pretty bunched up--like she didn't have quite enough room to straighten out the fetch line before she got to you. Was she so tight that the sheep were zig zagging around and that's why she's flanking?

 

Do you think just stretching things out would help? Or do you think doing more tight work where she had to learn to handle the pressure of being close would help? (I'm pretty much parroting things that have been offered to me for certain similar problems--though not with wearing)

[Mark Billadeau]

Thanks Mark, I think you posted that advice a few weeks back and that is what got me thinking that I better get doing, I started that way which he does fine at, now I'm just having little burps when I don't make the turn and ask him to do it without me. The sheep at the last trial did no help much either, they were heavily drawn to the handler and to the pen, making it even harder to convince the dog to not balance them to you.

 

Deb

Deb,

 

In that case you could have worn the sheep a few steps away from the post, stopped the dog, and then step back to the post behind the dog. You can use this (stop the dog and then step back behind the dog) at home to help ease the transition into driving.

 

Mark

[Pippin's person]

Let me go look....

Okay, we were heading in that direction- had made a turn (clockwise) a bit before. Behind me was the pen where we got the sheep from. Sheep were with me- this was wearing. Yeah, she was tight there- causing a cfrunk. I have some shots of her doing close work, and it is good. I tell you, it's me. I know it.

 

So, the sheep were in the pen that is behind you to the left and you made a clockwise turn--in that second picture, is Lucy still completing that turn (e.g. it just looks to me like the top of an outrun or flank rather than a tight wear and that's why I keep belaboring it)? If that's the same turn, then maybe she needs a little more room to be able to be steady at the top. One thing I'm often told to do is lie the dog down and move off (essentially beginning a wear) to stretch things out a little bit before continuing to wear or flank or whatever. No clue if that would help with your situation, but that's what I've generally done at novice trials. I've turned the post and asked for a lie down (basically at the point Mark describes) and then started the wear with the dog lying down--he gets up or I ask him up before he's out of contact, but that way there is enough room to keep him out of the "danger bubble" and thus keep the sheep off me. We usually get most or all of our wear points (and then we get to the pen.....and my true lack of skill becomes ever more apparent).

 

Thanks for posting the pictures--it's really great to be able to see the different positions and to read what others see in them.

[Debbie Meier]

Deb,

 

In that case you could have worn the sheep a few steps away from the post, stopped the dog, and then step back to the post behind the dog. You can use this (stop the dog and then step back behind the dog) at home to help ease the transition into driving.

 

Mark

 

 

That was where I really screwed up at the trial, when my dog refused to drive them off me I went to that mode, but I stopped my dog and stepped behind him, I left him stopped to long, this was an arena trial on sand, the sheep took that opportunity to say see ya, I paniced, flanked my dog (I should have just walked him up and trusted that he would have maintained the line and adjusted it if needed, then I didn't stop him in time and ended up putting him in the path between the sheep and the panel, costing me a couple points there...loss of control, crossing the course.... flanked him back reset my line but the damage was done, but overall, learning expirence that will help me next time.

 

We are going to be on the same sheep next week, one of the open handlers (he owns the sheep) told me to not try to make a tight turn and sacrafice some points by taking them wide moving them off line early on the fetch then keeping the dog a little more between me and them actually driving them off me all the way around the turn. Kinda stinks when you have to compensate for the sheep, but it is making me work harder to get my dog to work independent from me and to trust him.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Hmm, I guess I don't see that what I am doing is not putting a good foundation on the dog. The key to driving is that the dog has to balance the sheep himself, if the dog can do it while going away from you won't making him do it all the time end up repairing your wear problem, eventually you can have him drive them to you, if he stops balancing (controlling, speed and direction) the sheep himself and sucks into you he's wrong. If you think about it, when you tell the dog he is putting too much pressure on the sheep when they are between you and him and correct him you are trying to teach him to administer just enough pressure to control them not to rely on you being a back stop, basically balancing them himself, your just there. It's just a different way of approaching it.

 

Deb

Deb,

I'm not sure I understand your point here. I find the ability to wear--balance the sheep to me--essential for all sorts of tasks and don't understand why someone would think letting the dog learn to do so should be skipped. If you look at KelpieGirl's chute pictures, she would have had a much easier time had she stepped to one side of the chute and then let Lucy wear them into the entrance. If you want to cut off some sheep (shed) and your dog hasn't learned to work sheep calmly, settle them from one side with a human on the other, as in wearing, then I submit that setting up a shed or simply splitting off a few sheep to work is going to be much harder.

 

I have had two youngsters now who have been doing well driving, etc., who suddenly seemed to revert and forget how to balance, say, on the fetch. They acted as if they needed me to tell them what to do, when in fact they ought to instinctively bring sheep directly to me. My fix in both cases was to go back to wearing sheep around the pasture, saying nothing to the dogs, and letting them find that natural balance and feel that they had and "lost."

 

Heck, even when I need the sheep brought up into a corner for treatment or whatever, I need a dog who is comfortable balancing the sheep to me and holding them there while I do what I need to do.

 

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes here or something, but I just don't understand how one would get by without teaching a dog to wear/balance sheep to the human properly.

 

J.

[Pearse]

Kinda stinks when you have to compensate for the sheep, but it is making me work harder to get my dog to work independent from me and to trust him.

 

Deb

 

Noooooooooo! It never stinks when you have to compensate for the sheep. That's what it's all about. You ALWAYS have to compensate for the sheep. Sometimes the sheep are light, sometimes they are heavy. Sometimes the cooperate. Sometimes they are ornery.

 

Keep in mind what the goal is. It's not to get around a trial course. It's to train a dog that can move sheep (any sheep) where you want them and when you want them. The goal in training is to help the dog figure out how to do this.

 

It does help to have cooperative sheep when you are starting out (especially when you AND the dog are starting out together) but the more variety in the sheep, the more fun for you and the dog, and (I think) the faster the dog learns.

 

And, I think you are right about it being easier when you are trying to do actual work. I've found that when I'm doing real jobs (moving sheep to new pasture, sorting them, bringing to a pen or corner for handling) I tend to relax and the dog does too. That doesn't mean you should allow sloppy work just "git er done" style or that exercises and drills don't have real value, but sometimes when the exercise isn't working, going back to some chore work (even if you need to invent some) can take the pressure off a bit but still accomplish some learning.

 

Pearse

[Debbie Meier]

I guess what I am looking at, is if the dog is reading and balancing the stock correctly without you, why would he not be able to wear correctly, except if you have allowed him to be wrong, so by continuing to wear incorrectly how is that going to fix anything except further make him think wrong is right? Here's my line of thinking, if I can't get the dog to get the pressure right on the "Wear" requirement, do something that he can do right, in this case drive, then you can work that into a wear, by moving yourself into the picture.

 

Now, there is another thing I just thought about, if the dog can only drive when he is in-between the sheep and a draw, then he really is not driving he's just putting himself into the draw using it to keep his sheep balanced. When I hear someone say their dog can drive I'm thinking cross drives, to pressure, away from pressure and everywhere in between, not just floating them by covering draws. That puts things into a different perspective simular to when you hear someone ask if your dog is really driving or just following the sheep to or away from the draw.

 

So, if that is the case, continueing to wear still is not going to fix the pressure problem, you need to go and correct the dog as described earlier by Nancy, or you may need go back to something as simple as making sure the dog flanks correctly and is not slicing in or flanking out to big, other pressure problems would be slicing on the top of the outrun and not being willing to hesitate or stop at the top for a lift. I'm sorry to seem dense, but I'm coming from the direction of the dog applying pressure based on the sheep and how we want the sheep to respond, if the sheep are running too fast the dog is putting too much pressure on, if the sheep are blowing up, the dog is putting too much pressure on, if the sheep are wondering around aimlessly or not moving along at the right pace the dog is not putting enough pressure on, we need to correct the dog in any of these instances and not just let them continue on, I was taught that leaving the dog do it wrong is just going to make him think it is right.

 

Julie (Kelpiegirl) asked "to wear or not to wear" in the title then proceeded to say "I think my dog would be a tad bit less pushy if I could have her drive to the panels in our novice trials", I say then if the dog is not wearing correctly go drive and work it back into a wear. Since she is looking at it from a trial standpoint the driving will pay off for her and she can continue on working with something that is working and pick up what needs to be fixed. What should happen, in making the transition back to the wear the dog is going to make pressure errors that will get corrected, or should be corrected, if you keep correcting them as you transition yourself back into the picture you should end up with a correct wear. But, again, if the dog really is not driving correctly in the first place then it probably won't work.

 

BTW, yes my dogs wear, but I don't practice or school it, unless I have a dog that needs to get a little more interest, drive or is not getting the concept of keeping the sheep together, then I'll do some walk abouts, but I also don't want them to think that wearing means run the sheep into me. Yeah in daily work I use it all the time, when I go ahead to a gate I don't want the dog slamming the sheep against me and the gate, I want the sheep balanced to me, if the sheep are against me the dog is putting to much pressure on and not wearing correctly, at least that was what I was taught. I guess I look at a dog that is holding the sheep to you to closely with too much pressure or pushy will prevent you from executing a good pen and also shedding, in the case of a shed the sheep won't quietly move apart but frantically be bound together. It's actually kinda of humerous watching someone try to shed when the dog is slamming them to their feet, they may as well be using a meat saw to get the sheep to split, I saw both extremes last week, the other was the dog so far off pressure that the handler could get them to split but there was no way to control one group or the other.(note I said handler, knowing that the dog should have been creating the shed, the judge in the handlers meeting clarified that he wanted to see the dog shed not the handler split the sheep then the dog move one set off). Then there is the other deal, where the person manually moves the dog off pressure tries to set up the shed and the dog counters from a distance or lurching back in putting them back together again.

 

I probably errored in thinking that the dog was correctly reading and applying the right pressure in one instance and not the other. Then, forget about the trial and working obstacles and get the dog to quiet pushing the sheep into you, just because they allow a person to fetch a course does not mean it's right. I found another way to remind myself to correct the pushy dog is to go out in work in flip flops, the pain and anger of being stepped on will surely put enough force into my correction to let the dog know he better change. But then I think it's nuts when people are going out and buying steel toed shoes and knee braces so that the sheep don't hurt them along with comparing bruises. Rather then fixing the problem they are accepting it. Yeah, I know I should not be suggesting such a thing, but it will proof whether or not your dog is pushing too much.

 

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, it's just that you don't see good work dogs or open level dogs running their handlers over with the sheep, so why do people think it is acceptable to allow it for young dogs, I can see a young dog making a mistake, but allowing it to continue just turns it into a habit making it harder to break.

 

Sorry, maybe I'm just expecting too much. I forget that we are approaching training from a different direction then most.

 

Deb

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks for your additional input, Deb, and I think that many of the more seasoned trainers on the boards would agree with most of what you wrote (myself included).

 

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, it's just that you don't see good work dogs or open level dogs running their handlers over with the sheep, so why do people think it is acceptable to allow it for young dogs, I can see a young dog making a mistake, but allowing it to continue just turns it into a habit making it harder to break.

 

Deb

 

I quoted the paragraph above because it hits the nail right on the head! The "good work dogs and open level dogs" do not run the sheep over their handlers because they usually have a solid training foundation, which includes learning to quietly wear the sheep to their handler and calmly work close at hand. You are also correct that many people (usually those new to training sheepdogs) allow their young (or green) dogs to push the sheep into, over, on top of, or past their handler. That is incorrect, and the dog should be taught to work correctly.

 

You also wrote, "I forget that we are approaching training from a different direction then most." Could you please elaborate on this, because perhaps it would help us understand your posts better. I believe that stockdog training should always be approached as helping the dog understand how to work stock correctly regardless of the trainers' goals.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Debbie Meier]

Noooooooooo! It never stinks when you have to compensate for the sheep. That's what it's all about. You ALWAYS have to compensate for the sheep. Sometimes the sheep are light, sometimes they are heavy. Sometimes the cooperate. Sometimes they are ornery.

 

Keep in mind what the goal is. It's not to get around a trial course. It's to train a dog that can move sheep (any sheep) where you want them and when you want them. The goal in training is to help the dog figure out how to do this.

 

It does help to have cooperative sheep when you are starting out (especially when you AND the dog are starting out together) but the more variety in the sheep, the more fun for you and the dog, and (I think) the faster the dog learns.

 

And, I think you are right about it being easier when you are trying to do actual work. I've found that when I'm doing real jobs (moving sheep to new pasture, sorting them, bringing to a pen or corner for handling) I tend to relax and the dog does too. That doesn't mean you should allow sloppy work just "git er done" style or that exercises and drills don't have real value, but sometimes when the exercise isn't working, going back to some chore work (even if you need to invent some) can take the pressure off a bit but still accomplish some learning.

 

Pearse

 

 

Yeah I know, I just wanted it to go better, dang knee knockers, exposing my and my dogs hole (I have to take a portion of the blame to, probably the fast majority of it). I learned from it, and I've been trying to set up situations here at home since then that will even make it more challanging for my dog in hopes that I can do better next time. It's just frustrating, especially when you find out that they had two sets of sheep from two different places each being worked differently, one set, the ones we had in novice and pro-novice hunt the handler and the pen the other set they used for Open drive right past you, they used that set for shedding. Oh, and they let pro-novice wear the sheep through the drive panel too, never thought about that they were doing that to compensate for the sheep. I should have just went for the win and to heck with trying to work to the next level, but I think the long run I'm better off, me and my dog will be more prepared next time. Can you tell we get to trial on "Well" schooled sheep.

 

I discovered a huge mistake I was making on my drive and fetch, I had not realized that I was not making my dog hold his line on past me, I was letting him flank when the sheep went past on his own and holding them to me, this made it even harder to get him to drive them off me, in his mind he was doing what he thought he should, ending the drive/fetch at my feet. I was also letting him slip out of his drives to cover the draw when he thought the sheep were going to escape rather then flanking him just enough to get back on line and then continue on. Since I've been making sure that his lines don't end up flanking, drive lines have been extending out longer and his inside flanks are coming easier. I'm able to trust him more and let him have fun (within reason of course). Without going to those couple of trials and trying to compete to the next level I would not be making the adjustments and getting more advancement. My hope is that when I move to pro-novice that I will be competitive, or at least not far from it. One of our other handlers that has been finishing ahead of me just fetching courses keeps saying she does not know what she is going to do when she moves to pro-novice next year, she keeps saying her dog does not know how to outrun, but her dog is also pushy and thinks that every flank should end with the sheep coming to her. It's frustrating because what is allowing her to be successful at this point may also inhibit her from going further.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

The "good work dogs and open level dogs" do not run the sheep over their handlers because they usually have a solid training foundation, which includes learning to quietly wear the sheep to their handler and calmly work close at hand.

Deb,

This is the part I'm having trouble with as well. Maybe we're just talking at cross purposes or something. To me the very basics of starting a dog start with teaching/allowing the dog feel the balance and to wear the sheep to me and work calmly close at hand, which is what Nancy describes above and what I tried to elaborate on in a previous post when I tried to explain why a good foundation in wearing is important.

 

No one is saying that wearing is more important than driving, but rather that proper wearing has a very important place in the foundation of training a dog. I'm not sure how that got turned into an either/or thing (wearing vs. driving) because obviously a dog needs to be able to do both.

 

Maybe the disconnect is in your different approach to training (and I'd like to hear what that is as well). I figure that a dog that learns to balance and feel its sheep and pace appropriately while wearing will be able to translate all those "right things" to driving when we start that in our training. A dog that learns to read the pressure and draws and the sheep while wearing (when I can actually be more help to the dog if necessary) will then be able to use those tools in other phases of its work as well.

 

J.

[NCStarkey]

Hi again all,

 

Great post, Julie, and absolutely correct that the wear, incorporated with balance work, also teaches the dog to read and "feel" its sheep. Omitting perfecting this training exercise will leave the dog with "building blocks" missing in its foundation, ones which it will need as it progresses through training levels.

 

Julie wrote, "A dog that learns to read the pressure and draws and the sheep while wearing (when I can actually be more help to the dog if necessary) will then be able to use those tools in other phases of its work as well." The "tools" expression made me chuckle, as I told several people at the VA trial a couple weekends ago that my young dog Drift "doesn't have a lot of tools in his toolbox yet".

 

Regards,

nancy

[Little Bo Boop]

I have had two youngsters now who have been doing well driving, etc., who suddenly seemed to revert and forget how to balance, say, on the fetch. They acted as if they needed me to tell them what to do, when in fact they ought to instinctively bring sheep directly to me. My fix in both cases was to go back to wearing sheep around the pasture, saying nothing to the dogs, and letting them find that natural balance and feel that they had and "lost."

 

Julie, from what I understand (and have experienced so far) I think this is a farily common occurance. Thats why its so important that once you start driving with your dog, that you go back and do balance work with them as well. (i'm not saying this, thinking you don't already know it) just agreeing with you. I learned this the hard way with my first dog (a natural driver) And as a novice, I just really had no concept how critically important balance was/is. I've since gone back to basics with this dog, and do quite a bit of silent gathers. She's getting better, but it would have been nice had we started out right, and not had to go back and try and regain the balance thing.

 

Betty

[kelpiegirl]

I;m not sure how this thread went this way... My dog does/can/will balance/wear sheep to me in decent fashion, but for some reason, at a trial, we seem to fall into the push vortex. Clearly the dog needs to be able to do both. I know that the dogs needs to be able to handle what is required with aplomb, but isn't there a bit of handling involved? Say you have a dog who is short on his outrun- stops at say, 11:00. Dog is an open level dog, who with good handling still places quite well. Say you have a dog who grips out at the pen, routinely- but, you have learned to handle around it, and mitigate that the best you can. Say you have a dog who's turns in a bit too much on his flanks- again, a decent open dog- how do you handle that? I agree that there are basic tools a dog needs. I also believe that there are some things that seem to come a bit easier for the human/dog team. What I was getting at, was, for trial purposes, since there IS tension involved, should I just a/d, instead of fight or shut down during the wear. Clearly, we will work on fixing this stuff- she's still very young, but I don't want to be fighting my dog- and no, I don't trial that much, so it isn't as if we are jonesing to get to every single trial.

[NCStarkey]

Hi again,

 

You wrote, "What I was getting at, was, for trial purposes, since there IS tension involved, should I just a/d"....

 

 

Sorry, but what is "a/d"?

 

nancy

[Debbie Meier]

You also wrote, "I forget that we are approaching training from a different direction then most." Could you please elaborate on this, because perhaps it would help us understand your posts better. I believe that stockdog training should always be approached as helping the dog understand how to work stock correctly regardless of the trainers' goals.

 

Regards,

nancy

 

 

Oh boy, here we go...

 

I work under the guidence of Marc Christopher, I know some do not agree with his methods of training, and what he teaches for one reason or another, and this is fine, that is their problem not mine. I started working with him a year ago this past spring, we had him here for 3 seminars and 2 series of private lessons, and I went to another of his seminars hosted at a different farm this spring a few weeks after ours, so I guess you could say I've had a lot of private lessons with him, up to 4 a day when he was here. This was after spinning circles with an Aussie trainer that kept telling us that we will eventually be able to compete open and have good farm dogs, as the sheep were getting tore up and I was getting run over and my voice was going horse. I will still yell, vs. moving my feet old habits are hard to break, and darn it all, why I can't give up yelling Lie Down is beyond me.

 

First, we don't worry about how much ability or instinct the dog has, we approach it from the angle of teaching the dog obedience, compliance and proper response to pressure whether applied by us or the sheep. If we step in, you need to yield out, not lean on me, there is one exception, that is when the command takes you into my pressure such as flanking close to me, driving or walking up, when I give you a walk up command you then lean on the sheep to cause a response that we have deemed acceptable by allowing it in previous lessons, this will also mean that if I tell you to walk in on a shed you will come into my pressure. It is just enough of a lean or step in to engage the sheep into motion and continue it, then you are expected to keep them on the line originally set where the walk up command was initiated. We also operate under the assumption that a dog naturally will fetch the sheep to us so we don't use the fetch and the wear to show the dog balance, we show it on the drive, if the dog just does not seem to get the concept then we may trigger it with a little wearing or fetching and then back to driving again. This helps us not get a dog fixated on fetching to us, keeps our sheep more honest because they are not constently get fetched to us and also allows us to distinguish the difference from a flank and a walk up, or lateral vs. liniar. We are operating in a very simple world Stop, Walk up or in (liniar) and left/right flanks - lateral (slices, spirals, out to far, in to close unacceptable) we want the dog to find that perfect path around the sheep that keeps him lateral to the group or individual, a slice is not lateral or liniar, but just far enough off so that if he squares up or you may decide that you want them to move one step to the sheep it will initiate motion. Same with walk up, straight to the sheep, then straight away with the sheep, then straight away keeping them on the defined line, not the dog the sheep, so the dog will slide left or right to compensate for the draws but still needs to maintain a liniar intent, by changing that intent you end up with a slice, or a spiral or it could end up in a fetch, none are correct if you are asking the dog to drive the sheep straight on a line to an expected destination, such as a drive panel.

 

Initially when working with Marc I understood not letting the dog get off the lateral toward the sheep, what I missed was that I was forcing my dog to far off the lateral to the outside, that path would take the dog away from the sheep, or allow him to travel off contact. By working the flank and the drive together you can proof the proper distance from the sheep. Last night when I was working I first thought my dog was too close to the sheep, his flank was almost right next to them, then I realized that they did not not move on his way past, so he was right, if he had been further off, the sheep would have not even acknowledged him when I wanted a drive. Once I wrapped my head around this approach it totally made sense, if the dog was making the sheep run when he was flanking he was putting to much pressure on them flanking in a manner that caused motion or flanking with the wrong intentions, how can I control the destination of the sheep if they are in constant motion with no clear direction? You can't, you first have to stop the motion even just for a fraction of a second then set the direction. At first it is alot of stopping and going, but as the dog gets the concept he just releases enough pressure from the walk up to the flank to ease the sheep until you give him the next walk up, sending them on their new line, it's a quiet, easy control type deal that we are trying to achieve. When the dog understands what you expect and gives it to you consistently you can work in any format, arena, open field, holding pens, ect. It's just a matter of how must distance you have on your corrections and commands, you still have to build distance. The dog will still make mistakes, if he tends to slice up close don't send him on an 300 yd out run, he not only will slice but he will learn that you can't stop him. Also, if you have a dog that lacks natural talant, you have the ability to manually position him, ideally you don't want him mechanical and the majority of the border collies won't be, some of our cattle dogs we end up making a little mechanical because they can't hold the lines on their own.

 

There are still little traps we fall into, like working a drive and not making sure that a line stays established, or letting the dog stay at balance when we want them off balance, it's amazing how the little bugger can manipulate you into moving so they can stay on balance, my dog started insisting that the sheep stayed with me, by method he was right, but we had disobedience when I wanted to flank him off balance to take the sheep past me. The more natural the dog is, the more problems or challanges your going to have with getting him to leave balance, but the balance will not be just to you, you'll have it in the draw also, but we treat it as an obedience issue, if he is correct in his position around the stock leaving the balance point will not threaten his ability to control the stock. I think my biggest challange so far was getting him to give up balance, he wanted it so bad that he would go out further away from the sheep to hold it. I needed to apply enough pressure on him in the form of a correction to get him to give it up, not unlike a dog that insists on being pushy, you have to correct firm enough to get them to give it up, you may turn them off in doing so, but we don't worry about that, we don't let them stay there. Once they give it up, you have to let them have it again otherwise your going to turn them totally off, you just work on gaining ground on them complying to you, vs. them gain ground on you accepting less from them.

 

I guess I look at things totally differently, my sheep don't get run, heck they hardly work, they calmly get taken from place to place. If someone comes to work a dog, I'll get this, 'when will your sheep stop running" deal, I can't help but answer, when your dog stops chasing them. When you come from this direction you start realizing how much influence Intent has on the sheep, when a dog goes onto the field with the intent to take chase or make them move first think about controlling second the sheep know it. I've had people say that we are going to create fence runners, but we don't, yeah if the work area is small and the dog has to run along the fence to flank around he will, he will even look out of the arena or bend his shoulder into the fence, slow way down to a trot, what ever he has to do to try to flank around without creating a lift. Once we get that instilled we just need to let them fetch a few times and they figure out that they can go ahead and lift at the top on an outrun and bring us the sheep, worse case, on a inexpirenced dog we have to stop them and redirect them. We may then let them fetch to let them learn more control.

 

So, now that I wrote a book... Oh yeah, by making it simple like this, I know it does not seem simple when your used to looking at it from a different view point, your realize real quick that the dog gives you what you allow, lately I have been allowing my dog to walk up or drive immediately after I stop him with a there, now everytime I tell him there he starts his drive, I need to decide if I'm going to keep accepting it, which means I'm going to have to be 100% sure that I want him to drive from the point I tell him 'There", or if I am going to make sure he hesitates just enough to wait for the next command. Marc says he wants the There to be clutch, not a full stop, I guess it is clutch, if he faces off to walk up and I reflank him he just fires right into a flank. Another thing, when I flank my dog, if he obeys it's snaps, if he decides to disobey he sneaks, so I can just get all over him real quick for disobeying, same with his walk up or drive, if he starts intending to roll to the sheep away from the draw vs. maintaining the line he will start to hesitate or slow, when he is holding them line he is very purposeful.

 

I guess when I look at wearing, walk abouts, balance to the handler excersise, etc. I look as tools to help show the dog what I want, they are not the foundation to the training, they are tools to help set the foundation. If I stay on them too long the tool no longer functions as a tool but a crutch, you can't get anything done without relying on them, I want the dog to be able to balance and control the stock without me. It's also funny that I keep forgetting to take a sorting stick with me to work, or to trial, I just don't use them in my training, yeah initially I may use a cord to help get an inside flank or hold a line, or stop the dog from getting to the sheep, I may have to use a rattle paddle (in my case it's soda bottle with rocks in it taped to a stick) because my growl alone does not make an impression, but I want to use them only long enough to make my point, and get rid of them quickly.

 

The biggest thing I've learned regardless of how you train, is that you can not let the dog continue down the wrong path, what is missed in the books is attitude and the relationship between the handler and dog, the dog needs to be impressed, if you can't be a factor to the dog, your going to fail in getting them to change their path. Basically if you decide to carry a big stick, that dog better think your going to use it. There is a bunch I've missed, it's like trying to explain the way Virgil Holland trains in a three page pamphlet...impossible.

 

An e-mail just came out that Marc is going to be in NC at the end of the month, he's worth going to, you don't have to train the way he suggests, but he does preach control and stockmenship and explains in a very simplistic manner, probably too simplistic for some. One of the first things he will say, "It's so easy your not going to believe it".

 

Deb

[kelpiegirl]

For me, sometimes attention deficit , no, really- assisted drive

Hi again,

 

You wrote, "What I was getting at, was, for trial purposes, since there IS tension involved, should I just a/d"....

Sorry, but what is "a/d"?

 

nancy

[Debbie Meier]

I;m not sure how this thread went this way... My dog does/can/will balance/wear sheep to me in decent fashion, but for some reason, at a trial, we seem to fall into the push vortex. Clearly the dog needs to be able to do both. I know that the dogs needs to be able to handle what is required with aplomb, but isn't there a bit of handling involved? Say you have a dog who is short on his outrun- stops at say, 11:00. Dog is an open level dog, who with good handling still places quite well. Say you have a dog who grips out at the pen, routinely- but, you have learned to handle around it, and mitigate that the best you can. Say you have a dog who's turns in a bit too much on his flanks- again, a decent open dog- how do you handle that? I agree that there are basic tools a dog needs. I also believe that there are some things that seem to come a bit easier for the human/dog team. What I was getting at, was, for trial purposes, since there IS tension involved, should I just a/d, instead of fight or shut down during the wear. Clearly, we will work on fixing this stuff- she's still very young, but I don't want to be fighting my dog- and no, I don't trial that much, so it isn't as if we are jonesing to get to every single trial.

 

Julie, as far as driving vs. fetching your panel to get through the course at the trial I would do it.

 

IMO, regarding the rest of your post, not that it is worth much:

Ok, you described things that open dogs may do that the handler has figured out how to manage but are not interesting or don't how to fix, which is fine, the way I approach it or look it is a band-aid, the handler figured out a temporary away or mechanical around the problem. The other day I was talking to a handler that was Thank you'ed for gripping when he sent the dog on a flank and pushed him for speed, he said that he knew he should not have asked for speed because the dog gets tight and grips when he does that, my question was why do you accept the flank to go incorrect when you want the dog to speed up, basically a flank should not bring the dog into the sheep, the fact that he was close enough to grip was wrong, the fact that the dog changes his intent from flanking to gripping when the handler asks for speed is wrong. In my mind just reprogram the command, if you hiss don't allow him to slice, demand that he speeds up but stays correct. The handler explained that there are times he wants his dog to go tight, that was when I realized that he had a dog that he had to manually set both in and out distance, the dog did not automatically know the right path that we are trying to achieve. Basically his flanks are not always related to the stock, they are just out there anywhere in the area of the stock relying on the handler to adjust them as needed.

 

Manually positioning the dog works for him, he has won quite a few arena trials, he admits to struggling at field trials, especially on light sheep. One thing that concerns me on a deal like this, has this dog just been allowed to work this way or does the dog lack in the balance and control department, the handler admits that he has work alot of balance and feel. It's real hard to distinquish between talented dogs and dogs with talented handlers sometimes.

 

Deb

[Little Bo Boop]

Oh boy, here we go...

 

I work under the guidence of Marc Christopher, I know some do not agree with his methods of training, and what he teaches for one reason or another, and this is fine, that is their problem not mine. I started working with him a year ago this past spring, we had him here for 3 seminars and 2 series of private lessons, and I went to another of his seminars hosted at a different farm this spring a few weeks after ours, so I guess you could say I've had a lot of private lessons with him, up to 4 a day when he was here. This was after spinning circles with an Aussie trainer that kept telling us that we will eventually be able to compete open and have good farm dogs, as the sheep were getting tore up and I was getting run over and my voice was going horse. I will still yell, vs. moving my feet old habits are hard to break, and darn it all, why I can't give up yelling Lie Down is beyond me.

 

First, we don't worry about how much ability or instinct the dog has, we approach it from the angle of teaching the dog obedience, compliance and proper response to pressure whether applied by us or the sheep. If we step in, you need to yield out, not lean on me, there is one exception, that is when the command takes you into my pressure such as flanking close to me, driving or walking up, when I give you a walk up command you then lean on the sheep to cause a response that we have deemed acceptable by allowing it in previous lessons, this will also mean that if I tell you to walk in on a shed you will come into my pressure. It is just enough of a lean or step in to engage the sheep into motion and continue it, then you are expected to keep them on the line originally set where the walk up command was initiated. We also operate under the assumption that a dog naturally will fetch the sheep to us so we don't use the fetch and the wear to show the dog balance, we show it on the drive, if the dog just does not seem to get the concept then we may trigger it with a little wearing or fetching and then back to driving again. This helps us not get a dog fixated on fetching to us, keeps our sheep more honest because they are not constently get fetched to us and also allows us to distinguish the difference from a flank and a walk up, or lateral vs. liniar. We are operating in a very simple world Stop, Walk up or in (liniar) and left/right flanks - lateral (slices, spirals, out to far, in to close unacceptable) we want the dog to find that perfect path around the sheep that keeps him lateral to the group or individual, a slice is not lateral or liniar, but just far enough off so that if he squares up or you may decide that you want them to move one step to the sheep it will initiate motion. Same with walk up, straight to the sheep, then straight away with the sheep, then straight away keeping them on the defined line, not the dog the sheep, so the dog will slide left or right to compensate for the draws but still needs to maintain a liniar intent, by changing that intent you end up with a slice, or a spiral or it could end up in a fetch, none are correct if you are asking the dog to drive the sheep straight on a line to an expected destination, such as a drive panel.

 

Initially when working with Marc I understood not letting the dog get off the lateral toward the sheep, what I missed was that I was forcing my dog to far off the lateral to the outside, that path would take the dog away from the sheep, or allow him to travel off contact. By working the flank and the drive together you can proof the proper distance from the sheep. Last night when I was working I first thought my dog was too close to the sheep, his flank was almost right next to them, then I realized that they did not not move on his way past, so he was right, if he had been further off, the sheep would have not even acknowledged him when I wanted a drive. Once I wrapped my head around this approach it totally made sense, if the dog was making the sheep run when he was flanking he was putting to much pressure on them flanking in a manner that caused motion or flanking with the wrong intentions, how can I control the destination of the sheep if they are in constant motion with no clear direction? You can't, you first have to stop the motion even just for a fraction of a second then set the direction. At first it is alot of stopping and going, but as the dog gets the concept he just releases enough pressure from the walk up to the flank to ease the sheep until you give him the next walk up, sending them on their new line, it's a quiet, easy control type deal that we are trying to achieve. When the dog understands what you expect and gives it to you consistently you can work in any format, arena, open field, holding pens, ect. It's just a matter of how must distance you have on your corrections and commands, you still have to build distance. The dog will still make mistakes, if he tends to slice up close don't send him on an 300 yd out run, he not only will slice but he will learn that you can't stop him. Also, if you have a dog that lacks natural talant, you have the ability to manually position him, ideally you don't want him mechanical and the majority of the border collies won't be, some of our cattle dogs we end up making a little mechanical because they can't hold the lines on their own.

 

There are still little traps we fall into, like working a drive and not making sure that a line stays established, or letting the dog stay at balance when we want them off balance, it's amazing how the little bugger can manipulate you into moving so they can stay on balance, my dog started insisting that the sheep stayed with me, by method he was right, but we had disobedience when I wanted to flank him off balance to take the sheep past me. The more natural the dog is, the more problems or challanges your going to have with getting him to leave balance, but the balance will not be just to you, you'll have it in the draw also, but we treat it as an obedience issue, if he is correct in his position around the stock leaving the balance point will not threaten his ability to control the stock. I think my biggest challange so far was getting him to give up balance, he wanted it so bad that he would go out further away from the sheep to hold it. I needed to apply enough pressure on him in the form of a correction to get him to give it up, not unlike a dog that insists on being pushy, you have to correct firm enough to get them to give it up, you may turn them off in doing so, but we don't worry about that, we don't let them stay there. Once they give it up, you have to let them have it again otherwise your going to turn them totally off, you just work on gaining ground on them complying to you, vs. them gain ground on you accepting less from them.

 

I guess I look at things totally differently, my sheep don't get run, heck they hardly work, they calmly get taken from place to place. If someone comes to work a dog, I'll get this, 'when will your sheep stop running" deal, I can't help but answer, when your dog stops chasing them. When you come from this direction you start realizing how much influence Intent has on the sheep, when a dog goes onto the field with the intent to take chase or make them move first think about controlling second the sheep know it. I've had people say that we are going to create fence runners, but we don't, yeah if the work area is small and the dog has to run along the fence to flank around he will, he will even look out of the arena or bend his shoulder into the fence, slow way down to a trot, what ever he has to do to try to flank around without creating a lift. Once we get that instilled we just need to let them fetch a few times and they figure out that they can go ahead and lift at the top on an outrun and bring us the sheep, worse case, on a inexpirenced dog we have to stop them and redirect them. We may then let them fetch to let them learn more control.

 

So, now that I wrote a book... Oh yeah, by making it simple like this, I know it does not seem simple when your used to looking at it from a different view point, your realize real quick that the dog gives you what you allow, lately I have been allowing my dog to walk up or drive immediately after I stop him with a there, now everytime I tell him there he starts his drive, I need to decide if I'm going to keep accepting it, which means I'm going to have to be 100% sure that I want him to drive from the point I tell him 'There", or if I am going to make sure he hesitates just enough to wait for the next command. Marc says he wants the There to be clutch, not a full stop, I guess it is clutch, if he faces off to walk up and I reflank him he just fires right into a flank. Another thing, when I flank my dog, if he obeys it's snaps, if he decides to disobey he sneaks, so I can just get all over him real quick for disobeying, same with his walk up or drive, if he starts intending to roll to the sheep away from the draw vs. maintaining the line he will start to hesitate or slow, when he is holding them line he is very purposeful.

 

I guess when I look at wearing, walk abouts, balance to the handler excersise, etc. I look as tools to help show the dog what I want, they are not the foundation to the training, they are tools to help set the foundation. If I stay on them too long the tool no longer functions as a tool but a crutch, you can't get anything done without relying on them, I want the dog to be able to balance and control the stock without me. It's also funny that I keep forgetting to take a sorting stick with me to work, or to trial, I just don't use them in my training, yeah initially I may use a cord to help get an inside flank or hold a line, or stop the dog from getting to the sheep, I may have to use a rattle paddle (in my case it's soda bottle with rocks in it taped to a stick) because my growl alone does not make an impression, but I want to use them only long enough to make my point, and get rid of them quickly.

 

The biggest thing I've learned regardless of how you train, is that you can not let the dog continue down the wrong path, what is missed in the books is attitude and the relationship between the handler and dog, the dog needs to be impressed, if you can't be a factor to the dog, your going to fail in getting them to change their path. Basically if you decide to carry a big stick, that dog better think your going to use it. There is a bunch I've missed, it's like trying to explain the way Virgil Holland trains in a three page pamphlet...impossible.

 

An e-mail just came out that Marc is going to be in NC at the end of the month, he's worth going to, you don't have to train the way he suggests, but he does preach control and stockmenship and explains in a very simplistic manner, probably too simplistic for some. One of the first things he will say, "It's so easy your not going to believe it".

 

Deb

 

 

I guess I would just have to ask what kind of success you've had with this method of training, be that in a trialing venue or practical farm work or both.

 

And I suppose this is a little confusing to me as well. When training a stockdog, how can you not worry or at least take into consideration a dogs ability or instinct? That makes no sense to me.

 

 

First, we don't worry about how much ability or instinct the dog has, we approach it from the angle of teaching the dog obedience, compliance and proper response to pressure whether applied by us or the sheep"

[Pippin's person]

I guess I would just have to ask what kind of success you've had with this method of training, be that in a trialing venue or practical farm work or both.

 

And I suppose this is a little confusing to me as well. When training a stockdog, how can you not worry or at least take into consideration a dogs ability or instinct? That makes no sense to me.

 

I'm was wondering the same things--it'll be interesting to see this unfold some more (though, at some level, away from the OP--still very interesting)

[kelpiegirl]

That's cool- the evolution of the thread is interesting, and should lead to some good discussion

 

I'm was wondering the same things--it'll be interesting to see this unfold some more (though, at some level, away from the OP--still very interesting)

[NCStarkey]

Hi "kelpiegirl",

 

Thanks for explaining the "a/d" abbreviation....assisted driving....Oooooohhhh!!!

 

Regards,

nancy

[NCStarkey]

Hi Deb,

 

Thanks for your post explaining your training philosophy and for the in depth description of Marc Christopher's methods. WOW! You wrote a mouthful! (oh, that's not quite right, but you did write a lot!). After reading your post, I'll go back to something that I wrote earlier: Different strokes! However, if you are satisfied with the methods used, and you are accomplishing your goals, then go for it!

 

Regards,

nancy

[Debbie Meier]

I guess I would just have to ask what kind of success you've had with this method of training, be that in a trialing venue or practical farm work or both.

 

I guess it depends on what you consider success, I feel like I have control over my dog and have an understanding of where I'm trying to go, I just need to work out the finer points of how to get me and my dog there. Just like everyone else I'm limited on my funds, we don't have big open field trials in our area, it's all arena trials with the exception of one later this fall, they plan on running novice in an arena, my goal is to have enough distance on my dog to be able to run pro-novice that weekend so I can go out in the field, my dog's is just turning two, we will see how it goes time will tell.

 

 

And I suppose this is a little confusing to me as well. When training a stockdog, how can you not worry or at least take into consideration a dogs ability or instinct? That makes no sense to me.

 

I didn't say not to take ability or instinct into consideration, we want to assume he has it, we're just not going to worry about him getting out there and displaying it right out of the box, though it's neat, and a real talented dog won't need much support or showing. I agree at first it made no sense, but you already have the dog, what good is it dumping it out in a pen to see what it does just to learn bad habits. Treat it as if it is the most talented dog in the world that does not understand commands, let it have the right things and discourage the bad. Offer it the chance to flank correctly if it fails show it the way, offer the chance to drive correctly, if it fails show it the way. Have a plan in mind when you go out to train your dog rather then sitting in the passanger seat and waiting for the dog to offer behaivors, take charge, shape the dog into what you want allowing it to suppliment your training with his ability. For some reason we think that eventually if we keep flanking him and letting him go wrong, if we keep yelling at him for gripping he will figure out that he needs to change the way he flanks or the way he drives and his natural sense of balance and control will kick in, your going to wait a long time. The longer you wait the harder it's going to be to get that dog to change his thinking. It comes back to the people that want to go watch there dog have fun herding sheep, most are just watching their dogs chase sheep at the expense of the sheep. That's not training and is of little use to anyone.

 

I have a little female here that someone just gave me, second one that has no stock drive, no sense of balance, afraid of the stock....she's got talent, just so pressure sensitive that the pressure of the stock prevent her from lighting up along with the fact that she was chased back to the point of turn off. So, they figured excite her, oh yeah she got excited, tore the throat open on an ewe, now we have to beat back off the stock. We can't trust her, don't let her get close to the stock...now she's turned off, let's excite her again, oh darn now's she's tearing legs off. When she got here the first thing I did was put her on a cord and teach her that she better yield to me when I step into her and she better not lean on the cord. Then I let her go out with me the first couple of days and let her hang out with me when I chored, I let her move the sheep to the pasture, I've worked ducks with her. At first she didn't even look like she would keen up, about the third day she did a little stalk and croutch when she saw the sheep, it took her a week to get enough sustained drive back to want to go to the sheep and stay hooked in. Yesterday I put her on the cord again, started showing her left, right and walk up. She has a nice natural flank, yeah she makes mistakes putting to much pressure on when she is walking up and gets the sheep to the fence, if I growl to loud she about does a 180 beating feet away to release pressure. I don't know how much ability she is going to have, but if it is uncontrollable it of little use to me. But before I can see what she really has, I have to be able to correct her and control her, even it is just with my presence moving her off the sheep or repositioning her.

 

I think it is something that the established open handlers have, they already have the respect of the dog, they already are a factor to the dog, if they lose respect they do what they have too to get it back, they understand where they want that dog positioned they understand when too much of one thing turns into a liability rather then an aid. That's way too much for people to grasp, they can't see the little things, by the time they/we realize that there is a problem the problems is not so little, it's huge.

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

An e-mail just came out that Marc is going to be in NC at the end of the month, he's worth going to, you don't have to train the way he suggests, but he does preach control and stockmenship and explains in a very simplistic manner, probably too simplistic for some. One of the first things he will say, "It's so easy your not going to believe it".Deb

 

Where and when? I'd be interested in going to watch.