Jumping, injury and cow hocks.....

[Kat's Dogs]

Sorry, this is kinda long?.

 

OK, this could go in the agility/training section but I thought it would fit here a bit better because it is more about the health problems then the training.

 

First, about ?cow hocked? dogs (where their back legs are turned inward). Most BCs I have seen are (hey, it is even in the AKC standard! That must mean they all are right? ). From my agility trainer (somewhat of a big worrier about health issues) she says that "cow hocks" are NOT a good thing - causing problems with jumping and running and whatnot. But from herding people at a resent herding trial I have heard that when the dog is cow hocked they can usually run faster and make tighter turns. So, are they good or bad? Because she does agility, do I need to keep an eye on her back legs - make sure everything stays together right and they don't get worse or anything? What is the deal with "cow hocks"?

 

Next, about jumping. Dazzle will have to jump 20" in agility. My trainer thinks that is way too high for any dog to jump, and if you jump your dog that high, the dog will be a total train wreck by 6 years old. But I know LOTS of 12 and 13 year old BCs jumping 20" and going to nationals and all that. So I had a thought. What if, because my trainer doesn't like jumping her dogs very high and she always practices at 4" and only when she goes to a trial jumps her dog at the full 20" - is she making it worse. The people who have the "old" dogs tend to jump their dogs at 20" more in practice - and their dogs are not train wrecks at 13 years old. So, by not jumping the dogs at full height more often, do you think that they aren't building up the muscle they need, and therefore more prone to injury. Verses if you jump the dog full height more often, they would build up the muscle they need and be less prone to injury. So by not jumping full height in practice, could you actually be making it harder on your dog?

 

Does that make sense? Could it be at all true?

Thoughts...?

It was the only thing I could come up with to explain why these old dogs are still going strong while my trainers dogs are only going strong ?till about 7 years old.

 

Oh, one last thing. Dazzle is 17 months old now. When do you think it is REALLY 100% safe to start jumping her? And when she does start really jumping, is there anything I need to do to help her build up the muscle she needs, keep her joints working, and overall, keep her a healthy pup?

[Rosanne]

I've been doing agility since 1992 - made USDAA Finals 3 times, several ADCH's, etc etc. A dog who does not practice at full height does NOT have the necessary muscle OR knowledge to compete successfully and SAFELY!

I would say 99.9% of BCs are safe to begin jumping at 17months old. Start low, bring them up slowly as the dog gains confidence. I jump my dogs 2-4 times a week, on varying heights. They are fit, healthy, well-muscled dogs, and I have NEVER had a jumping injury. I used to run a dysplastic retriever - and she never limped a day till she died, jumping 30" in competition (old USDAA height). 20" is more than safe for an athletic, well-trained dog. My male who is 20" at the shoulder easily does 26", and my 18" female jumps 22" and higher without a blink. I expect both these dogs to run well over 10 years old, jumping 20" or so. . .

 

Honestly, I would recommend shopping trainers. I don't know any successful agility competitors who never jump full height at home. Is this a NADAC trainer? Some of them are over-cautious about safety, to the point of actually making it less safe.

 

Imagine if you were in the same position - you only had to jump 4" at home, but then had to jump 5 times that height at a trial! it would be stressful both mentally and physically!

 

edited to add: cow-hocks are not a concern to me unless you actually notice that your dog is weak in the rear. a fit dog's cow-hocks don't really mean much...

[Kat's Dogs]

Whoo hoo!

So happy that I am not wacko for thinking that about jumping!

 

I am looking for other trainers, but really just for the equipment - I know HOW I want to train her already but I just don't have the standard size equipment. Somday..... I am staying where I am now because the classes are free becuase I do some work for the training center. They have great training methods, just a bit over-safe. Most of the dogs there do NADAC (USDAA and AKC are to "hard on the dogs bodies")

 

I am still going to look for more evidence that it is true about not having the muscle and all (having some trouble finding stuff on the 'net). I want to be sure before I even think about telling my trainer. In the mean time, at least I can sleep a little better knowing that I am not wrecking my dog because she will have to jump 20" at a trial (she is 18.5" tall)

 

Thanks for the reply. It really helps.

[juliepoudrier]

Kat,

Here is another viewpoint, from a non-agility person. I would think that you would practice at various heights at home, working up to the competition height as the competition gets closer. I think this is what most athletes do (vary/pace their workouts so that they are at their peak the day of the competition). I would think that repetitive work at the highest level would make a human or canine (or any other species) athlete more prone to injury over time simply because of the constant jarring of the body structure (granted, a 35 pound dog jumping 20 inches won't be under as much strain as, say, a 1200-pound horse repeatedly jumping 5 feet, but you get the idea).

 

I don't think never jumping the required height except in competition would be wise, either, but if it were me, I'd mix height training with endurance training (endurance meaning doing long series of lower jumps, though I wouldn't go as low as 4", maybe 12-15 inches, depending on the length of the jump run). You're always safer building an all-around athlete as opposed to one that only ever jumps X number of 20" jumps (i.e., strictly course training) and therefore has muscles that are "trained" for that height only. That's why marathoners don't do just long runs when training....

 

As for the cow hocks, I think they can make the dog less prone to injury when it must make rapid lateral movements. I've never heard of cowhocks enabling greater speed in general, but rather as a benefit of causing less stress to the other joints of the leg when making fast turns.

 

Just my non-agility opinion.

 

J.

[airbear]

That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Can you imagine if you were doing a 10 km road race but the farthest you've ever run is 3 km?

 

How very odd. My Bear, not exactly the picture of perfect canine structure (long-backed, big dog, luxating patella), jumped 26" for a year, then moved to 22" for a couple of years, and now I jump him at 16". He's been doing agility for about 5 years, and he's somewhere between 9 and 11 years old. I'd say he's in better shape now than he was when he was 6. No arthritis, still solid muscle, etc.

 

Wicked is a physical specimen. 19.75", 32 lbs, all legs, blah blah blah. She jumps 22", did one trial at 26", she trains at 22" or 26", depending on what the other dogs are jumping.

 

When a jump is absurdly low (for my dogs, 16" and under) it is, to me, a different obstacle. For example, in flyball, they stride over the 8" - 12" jumps at a dead run. For agility, to clear a jump, a gather stride is required. Clean Run has an excellent jumping series based on Linda Mecklenberg's technique.

 

I'm with Roseanne - you might want to look for another instructor!

[Deb Mickey]

About cow hocks - at a canine athletic seminar I attended about a year ago border collies and cow hocks were discussed. This speaker felt that perhaps bcs are prone to cow hocks because their form follows their function (talking working bcs here...). Cow hocks seem to produce quicker, tighter turns, and quick bursts of speed, all traits a working border collie needs.

 

EDITED TO ADD: I'm talking about moderately cow hocked dogs, not dogs that are so cow hocked they are virtually crippled.

 

I agree with the others on the jump height issue. Most border collies I ever saw in agility, including my Jill, laugh at the 20 inch jumps, clearing them with ease. More than the height of the jump, I would be more concern with the overall physical condition of the dog (i.e., good muscle tone, good weight, etc.). I also made sure my dogs were warmed up before running agility, and I don't just mean using those warmup jumps at the trials. Warmups included stretching, flexing, etc. to warm up the muscles before a simple practice or running full bore a trial.

 

Just the humble opinion of a retired agility competitor.

[Rosanne]

Oh, BTW - my opinion on NADAC's "too hard on the body/unsafe" tag line - THIS IS AN ATHLETIC SPORT! Don't like it - go play chess!!

 

Jumping and equipment don't injure dogs, poor training and conditioning does.

 

(I don't do NADAC - my dogs all have 'unsafe' performances)

[Jojo de l'Aude]

Hi Kat,

 

I've been doing agility for a while, BC's are tuff dogs, jumping 20-26 inches isn't a prob for them. Making a Lab or Rottie jump over and over a height like that could be harmful but not agile dogs. So don't worry about it, just watch you dog as you would watch yourself in any sport.

 

The best training for agility to build muscle is running, hiking hills (great workout!) and swimming. I personally hike alot with Jo and my JRT and do flat work ( turns/direction) while on the trail. Changes a bit too and good for us handlers to who need to keep up with these BC's!!

 

have fun -eden

 

Oh yes forgot to mention, BC's tend to be bar knockers :mad: so it's best to stay at her jump height once she's trained ...

[MaggieDog]

We practice at 16" usually and 20" the closer we get to a show. The highest Maggie has jumped, just to see what she can do, is 36" w/o knocking a bar.

 

Here's a pic of a jump - look how close she gets to the bar, yet no knocking. She adjusts her jumps to the heights easily, but I can't imagine asking her to not really jump at all and then run at competition height. 12" jumps don't even really get her jumping in normal form, I can't imagine lower than that!

 

[Barb Scott]

My 21 and 1/2 inch BC Skye started his agility career jumping 30" in USDAA; they later moved the jumps down to 26" and he continued to compete and place until he was 10 years old. He had to be put to sleep because of bone cancer or I'm sure he'd have competed even longer!

Barb S

[Kat's Dogs]

At a fun match (NADAC style) I was going to jump Dazzle at 20". Instructor said she is WAY to young for that and I shouldn't do that, so I was going to do 16" instead, but she said no to that to (she was running the fun match). She made me jump her at 12". Daz wasn't even jumping, she was just running over them, dropping a lot of the bars because it was so awkward for her.

 

"too hard on the body/unsafe" tag line - THIS IS AN ATHLETIC SPORT! Don't like it - go play chess!!

LOL! Love this!

 

 

Julie, that is indeed what I was planning to do (training for handling - my part, I need training too - and endurance we would do low jumps, but training for the actual jumping and things like that I would do at full height). That makes good sense.

 

I am not as concerned about her being able to jump it (she jumped a 4' high "dog proof" gate a few months ago ) but my trainer is worrying me that she will fall apart and be cripple if I DO jump her high in practice (or at all, she wants Dazzle to jump as low as possible in competition - that would be 12" :eek: ).

 

I am glad to know that I am not being reckless planning to jump her full height in practice! My trainer was really starting to win me over. Thanks guys. In a few more weeks we will start to raise the bar a bit in training. Her first trail is going to be in November so we should be doing fine jumping 20" by then (hopefully NOT knocking the bars! ).

 

Thanks again guys - this made me feel so much better knowing I am not risking her health like some lunatic.

[Rhborder]

Susan Crank told me to move my dog Kiowa up to 20" when she was 13mnths old, simply because she had to learn to jump correctly- Before then, we were just jumping at 16" and she was begining to flaten out, Linda Mecklenburg has a wonderful method of teaching dogs to jump-you wouldn't have access to Clean Run Magazine would you, although I don't remember what month she started that series of articles then, does anyone else know?

[Kat's Dogs]

I started getting Clean Run in Dec last year. I think I have all of those articles - maybe. I was planning to do all those one day.... I should get on to that.

[Tassie]

Agree with what's been said. Border Collies jump 500mm here - it's just come down from 560 - I think the 500mm equates to 20 inches. It's not an issue for most of them at all. My girl only pulls bars if I handle badly and catch her on the hop as it were.

 

For jumping theory and practice another good source is Christine Zink and Julie Daniels' book - called Jumping from A-Z - teaching your dog to soar , available from Dogwise, and I think Clean Run, among other places.

[Kat's Dogs]

I have heard of "Jumping from A-Z" before (from Clean Run).

 

I will look into that book as well as the clean run articles.

[Zoe]

Very interesting ! I will save this. Thanks everyone !

[Shetlander]

What kind of surface are you practicing on? If it's well matted (not the vinyl obedience mats) or on grass, I wouldn't worry. But I wouldn't jump my dog, certainly not at full height, on concrete. That may sound obvious, but you would not believe the lengths I had to go to at my club to get mats down on the practice area's floor. It took me three years of arguing and finally becoming president to accomplish this. Some members still don't see why the big need to spend so much money on flooring.

[Pat W.]

I have 2 elder bcs one still competing, one not they are within 6 mos of each other in age. One is ABCA registered, one is petstore bought, one is very cow hocked, one is mildly cow hocked. Which do you think is still competing? Roseanne you know the answer so dont spill the beans! :0P

Jumping is about over all structure and conditioning not just about cowhocking, and jump heights. I recently took my daughter to a Nadac JR handler trial for the heck of it. It was the first time I had ever seen the rubber matting on the contacts. All I can say is "Don't Like it, Aint Gonna Do It!" NADAC has good thoughts on somethings but and its a very BIG BUT, they have a tendency to go overboard. I use to manage a hunter/jumper barn and we would do alot of flat work, cavaletti work, teaching a horse how to get round and use themselves correctly before moving on to any jumping. There is alot of info out there on jumping how to teach it, how to do it proper ect. Using varying heights in my opinion teaches an animal be it horse or dog to judge distances and height. If they dont understand or know how to handle the height how can they approach it properly. We as a handler can only do so much for them ie offering a decent and safe set up and approach. They must understand how to collect and negotiate the obsticle in front of them.

[Kat's Dogs]

We do a lot of training on the flat (at home) and at the training center we do some cavaletti work - and whenever I take Dazzle for a walk I make sure that she is trotting.

 

The flooring isn't all that great a the center. I hate it for sure (and I keep dreaming about buying some good flooring for them ). They have concrete with rubber mats on top (that are very ugly because they are old and stained). At home (where we get most of our training done) we work on grass (and it IS seattle so the ground is nice and absorbant).

 

I know NADAC goes overboard a lot. But none the less, they are the most fun IMO. (you can do more training in the ring - and other things that are more relaxed then AKC or USDAA). Plus they have all the cool game (gamblers, tunnelers, chances, touch n go, etc). Once we get going we might do some USDAA too - there are lots of trials around here.

 

As to this:

Which do you think is still competing?

Instinct tells me that the less cow hocked dog still competes. BUT, I don't think you would have posted this unless there was something to it. So I guess that they more cow hocked dog is still goin'.

[Rosanne]

Try some USDAA. They created the games in the first place. They have all the fun, with a little competition added in.

No you can't train in the ring like NADAC, but that's why TRIALS and TRAINING are two different things, just like every other sport!

 

I recommend NADAC to people with dogs who: 1)are not athletically sound enough to jump real jumps; 2)need some motivational work; or 3) have handlers who aren't really serious about the sport anyway

 

Pretty much all the advice on here is sound enough that you won't go astray as far as jumping. Your dog is plenty old enough to raise up. Most BC's are done growing between 10-15 months or thereabouts, and yours is not especially large, so she has probably been done for 6 months or more. Nobody's jump training is the 'best', just present your dog with lots of interesting situations involving the jump, and teach her she CAN do all of them, and you'll be fine.