A Border Collie bias?

[highway61]

I'll start this thread by saying I see there's a Training Discussion sub forum but that seems to pertain to dog training on livestock? (I suppose Eileen can move this to which ever forum it best fits).

Anyway, I recently enrolled myself and my 5 month BC in "Puppy Elementry" at Ahimsa and went to our first session Monday. It's a six week class that we'll attend once a week. I was one of about 7 or 8 other dogs with their owners. Upon arriving the training introduced herself and asked what I presume are the normal questions, how old? How long have you had him? (since 8 weeks)... I told her my opinion is he's a pretty normal pup and he likes people and other dogs, no issues. Then she asks the question we all get at some point, "is he all Border Collie?" I told her yes and she says "oh, most border collies aren't this friendly" and quickly back tracked with "Not that border collies aren't friendly..."

The space is a wide open building, kinda like a hangar. We leash our dogs to a tether on the wall and there are these movable sections of chain link fence (on wheels) on each side of us that makes our space. Everyone brings a rug (as required) and our first trick is to get the dog on the rug and give a treat. My pup Sammy takes right to it but other dogs/owner have more of a struggle with it. So here's where it got a tad wierd for me and Sammy. The 6 month Aussie to our right wants to play with Sammy and is also making eye contact. So I see Sammy do something I've never seen him do before, he snarls his nose and shows his teeth with a low growl. Amazing, the instructor who is dealing with all the barking, nervous dogs at once sees this! She calmly comes over to me and says "he's sensitive" and wisely grabs a blanket to throw over that gate section so the two dogs no longer make eye contact. Now the little Black Lab puppy to the left of us also wants to play and is now making eye contact with Sammy who reacts the same way. Again the instructor comes, calmly pets Sammy and again tells me he's sensitive then throws another blanket over that section of gate.No more eye contact, no more problem. She mentioned that for puppies being tied up to a wall in a strange place can be intimidating and was very comforting.

The training session ends and as I'm leaving the instructor who is talking to someone else catches me on my way out and says again, "he's sensitive" and is watching Sammy with a careful eye. She points out his current interaction with a Golden Retriever who is all in Sam's face, his movements brisk. She points out Sammy's tail tucked between his legs which is what he usually does when meeting another dog and then it goes to a wag. She says he doesn't like all the moving the Golden is doing. Anyway she continued her conversation with the other folks and I left feeling like she watched and treated us like we're a bit "special needs" That might be taking it too far but Sammy already knew the basic sit, speak, shake, down, roll over before even starting the class (maybe what she was saying was I am too sensitive! ). Most of the other dogs barked randomly and frequently and got a lot more of instructor's interactions than mine did.

Anyway, I'll have to find time to talk with her some more next week as "he's sensitive" has a lot of meaning and will need to drill down more on that.

[Liz P]

This article is perfect for Border Collie owners to read. They DO tend to be very proper and find bouncy dogs like GRs and Labs to be overwhelming and rude. It's your job to protect him from unwanted advances.

[Gideon's girl]

Gideon is sensitive too and honest. He finds overbearing dogs to be obnoxious and he very quietly tells them about it. I don't have a problem with him giving other dogs fair warning that he doesn't want them in his space. And he will happily play with other breeds as long as they aren't too in your face about it, so I know it isn't just an issue of him not liking all other dogs. Border Collies really do need to know that their owners are in their corner. Good luck and try to keep class fun.

[Gideon's girl]

Liz

 

Thanks for that link. That article is fantastic!!

[Maralynn]

Border Collies can get annoyed when they're busy and other dogs bother them "hey - I'm busy, quit bugging me". Honestly I wouldn't take the "sensitive" label too seriously. Just roll with it, make sure he is comfortable and don't let other pups get in his face. If he knows you will handle them he will learn to ignore them. I'd probably use the label to my advantage while at training "he's sensitive at this stage so please give us space"

[Jumpin Boots]

That is a great article! Timber and I went to the Ahisma center to do some BAT work to help with his decision making skills around dogs he isn't fond of, the method has worked really well for him and he is responding well and changing his initial natural response. I would chat to the instructor and get some tips on how she would suggest dealing with your pup. I found them to be very helpful.

[highway61]

Good luck and try to keep class fun.

 

Thanks, I forgot to mention in my original post that the class is fun and we are looking forward to the next! And thanks for the article Liz (it was more like a book but too interesting to not read it all!)

 

To be clear about Sammy's flash of aggression, those other pups were separated from us by those gates so it was purely eye contact that brought it out of him. And both times it happened the instructor was right on top of witnessing it. That's why she determined "he's sensitive". Still trying to understand the full meaning of that but I'm sure I'll get it in the coming lessons.

[Root Beer]

. . . so it was purely eye contact that brought it out of him. And both times it happened the instructor was right on top of witnessing it. That's why she determined "he's sensitive". Still trying to understand the full meaning of that but I'm sure I'll get it in the coming lessons.

 

Obviously I don't know what she means, but she could simply mean that he is very aware of what is going on around him. Both of my Border Collie boys are "sensitive" in that sense. If a dog is staring nearby, either of them would be very much aware of it.

 

It is possible that it is as simple as that.

[mum24dog]

 

I left feeling like she watched and treated us like we're a bit "special needs" That might be taking it too far but Sammy already knew the basic sit, speak, shake, down, roll over before even starting the class (maybe what she was saying was I am too sensitive! ). Most of the other dogs barked randomly and frequently and got a lot more of instructor's interactions than mine did.

Sounds like you have a great instructor - one who is observant and knows what each dog needs.

 

If your dog can do all that already it doesn't sound like you have much of a problem in that area. If your dog needs help interacting with other dogs calmly you do, and that's what it seems she was trying to give you.

 

Training classes aren't about things you can do, they are about things you can't.

[border_collie_crazy]

I dunno... BCs can definitely be weird and sensitive, but not wanting to be bothered while working doesn't strike me as a sensitivity thing! my Heeler/GSD doesn't like it either, she is not a serious dog when she isn't "working" but when she is in work mode she has no time for silliness and will give the tooth flash to a dog that looks at her like it wants to play. a few time at one class all the dogs broke from their station and started roughhouseing...all but Gem who stood off leash beside me looking at the other dogs with disdain lol in her opinion you do not play at work. I am more inclined to call it work ethic then sensitivity lol

[Gideon's girl]

Gideon was like that, now that you mention it. His puppy classes did a lot of work for five, play for five. He could handle playing before class started and after class ended, but he could not understand why work stopped and everyone went bananas here and there in the middle. I think he was relieved when we moved out of puppy classes. Micah never had that issue and still doesn't.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Mr. Highway 61 wrote: ""he's sensitive" has a lot of meaning and will need to drill down more on that."

 

Words are words and dogs are dogs and, as I can attest, facility with words can impede understanding dogs.

Dog training is a dance form.

 

Donald McCaig

[Shetlander]

Words are words and dogs are dogs and, as I can attest, facility with words can impede understanding dogs.

Dog training is a dance form.

 

But sometimes words provide an Ah-Ha moment and allow us to wrap our brains around what is happening with our dogs.

 

That said, I don't know that "he's sensitive" would be the most illuminating words for me.

[Joe Anne]

As a Trainer I can say it can be a pre conceived judgement about certain breeds on the part of a trainer! It can come from experience with a specific breed or lack of experience!

 

I am "sensitive", when I hear anyone "profile" a dog based on his or her breed at first meeting. EVERY dog is and should be treated as an individual, especially if you do not know that dog. (This is not to say that there are not behaviors specific to a breed), as we who know our BC's can attest. This was something I learned a long time ago when I first started training dogs.

 

Sounds to me like your trainer made this mistake when saying ...most BC's are not that friendly. Even if I think that about a breed I would not as a Professional Trainer say that to a client I just met.

Please understand, I am not saying she is not a good trainer, but , I believe we all do better when we know better....and I would hope she learns this sooner rather than later.

With that being said, I feel training should always be fun...so I wish that for you and your amazing little pup.

 

I am currently working with training my little BC pup ...5 1/2 months old , Rose, and she keeps me on my toes all the time!

Good luck and have fun!

[GentleLake]

It's been a couple weeks now, and I'm assuming the OP has been back to class since the original post.

 

I'm hoping Highway 61 will update us, both on the pup's progress in class and to what the trainer had to say when asked for clarification . . . .

[highway61]

Since what I originally wrote was after only the first session, I'll update now after attending a total of three so far. The trainer is terrific. Definitely got that sixth sense for reading, handling canines. Although I was put off about her "he's friendly for a Border Collie" comment, I can now see there's clearly no bias at all. What I've gathered about the "sensitive" advice is that the trainer noticed right from the start that my pup isn't wired to tolerate such forward greetings as much as say Labs, Goldens, whatchadoodle's do.

 

He did have an episode during the second session during the early play time when the instructor sections off areas and designates certain pups to play with each other. As soon as we unleash, the large, ADD Golden makes a b-line to Sammy, nose to nose with the Golden's head spiraling. I still had my hand firmly on Sammy's harness but before I could pull him back and block the Golden off with my free hand, Sammy snaps at him and the Golden backs off. The instructor assured me Sammy did no wrong and that he's not secure in that situation, etc.... I told her I see he doesn't like big, bouncy dogs all up in his face and of course she agrees completely.

 

The third session the instructor assigns Sammy to play with two other dogs, a standard Poodle and some mop top oodle (there's MY bias exposed ). The mop top is all over the place, bursting with energy. This time I cut him off before he can even get up in my pup's face and the owner notices right away her dog should be in the other pen where the dogs are playing much more aggressively and moves it there. Now, the poodle's energy matches Sammy's, they calmly greet (sniff butts) and from there ignore each other. The remainder of the class proceeds and no blankets over the gate sections are necessary this time so progress in my pup's "sensitivity" is being made. Now if we could just expel that Golden that barks randomly but hey I guess that's group training

 

This is my first BC so I'm catching on, some trial and error indeed.

[GentleLake]

Nice job looking out for your pup and cutting that mop top oodle off!

 

You're learning early what many of us have experienced time and time again . . . most BCs just don't like that over-exuberance that many of the retriever (and some other) breeds approach with.

 

Good for you . . . and for your pup.

 

You'll probably end up offending some retriever or other exuberant breed owner at some point in your dog's life, but it's your job to look out for him so that he doesn't have to and really piss the other owner off.

[highway61]

Thanks GentleLake. I think a common but funny misconception is most of the other dog parents in the class expect my BC to be bouncing around, terrorizing the other dogs with his so-called unlimited energy!

 

I've already gotten a lot of "he's so mellow for a Border Collie"

[Gideon's girl]

Every class I've had my BCs in has had plenty of those comments, even the one that the instructor has a BC(sport bred).

[arf2184]

Meg does not like the bouncy in your face dogs either. It took her a while to learn not to panic or get overly defensive, especially while on leash. She doesn't like feeling like she has no escape from those crazy dogs (even when they are securely confined behind a fence 20 yards away). After many instances of me blocking dogs she learned that I would handle it and most often now she just automatically gets behind me when a dog she's not sure about is approaching. We're both much happier that way.

[TEC]

Meg does not like the bouncy in your face dogs either. It took her a while to learn not to panic or get overly defensive, especially while on leash. She doesn't like feeling like she has no escape from those crazy dogs (even when they are securely confined behind a fence 20 yards away). After many instances of me blocking dogs she learned that I would handle it and most often now she just automatically gets behind me when a dog she's not sure about is approaching. We're both much happier that way.

Yes. IME, once dogs have learned that the handler will protect them, they tend to calm down.

 

I recently took my Border Collie, Josie, to a fall Deutsches Fest (big fair, main street, Odessa, WA) which was far more crowded with people and dogs than I had expected. Such a situation wasn't a first for her. It's taken some work. We have progressively experienced more crowded situations, and I was proud of her at the festival. Defensive techniques that came-in handy: 1) Dog heels on either side, on command, for weaving among people, kids and dogs, 2) A firm "sit" at handlers side, 3) As you mentioned, using your body to block dogs and little toddlers, 4) Simply stepping out of way and letting particularly difficult situations pass.

 

How I buy time when an in-your-face dog comes running toward my leashed dog, typically the owner trotting behind, unsuccessfully calling its name for recall, often at the same time proclaiming, "...don't worry, he/she's friendly": Try to remain calm, and time it so that just as the errant dog arrives at your position, you use the leash to turn your dog's body to face you. Off leash dog usually tries to sniff the only exposed portion, as you back-up briskly in circles so that errant dog cannot get near your dog's head. Off leash dog often gets bored with this routine, and/or it allows time for owner to regain control. It's a little dance that took some practice in the back yard, and has been handy numerous times. Always has ended well. It's worked for us.

 

Getting back closer to the main topic, I believe that there is an unfounded bias against border collies among cadre in some dog clubs. -- TEC

[speckle-legged dog]

No one at our agility class can believe that my Layla is one of the best behaved dogs in her doggie daycare since she DOES NOT want to be bothered in any way by other dogs when she is working with me on something. She will give that little toothy growl if other dogs try to get in her face when she is preparing to "work". She is intolerant of rude dogs too.