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Hi there! My husband and I got a Border Collie about 3 years ago. We got him as a puppy and while most of these 3 years have been absolutely great, we did make some mistakes for sure, especially in the beginning. We seemed to have managed his separation anxiety that he had for the first 1 1/2 years and overall he can be a pretty mellow dog now. When we got him at 8 weeks old, we did obedience classes and training and lots and lots of socializing. He was never the dog who loved other dogs very much. A quick sniff was all he cared for and then he was ready to moved on. As a puppy, he was actually quite scared and anxious about other dogs. We kept on socializing as much as possible but also made sure we didn't make him uncomfortable.

After 3 years now, he is still very very particular about other dogs. He loves teeny tiny dogs, but he isn't a fan of bigger dogs. It's like he can tell from afar whether or not he likes that dog coming towards us. He is much rather around people and I'm actually quite alright with that. Now here's our problem. We live in the US, where off-leash in public is prohibited and off-leash dog parks are always too crowded. I try to take him to parks and wooded areas and he does well on-leash and if nobody is in sight, I let him off-leash. However, living in the cities, there's always irresponsible people around, leaving their dogs off-leash even though their dogs don't listen to them at all. So when I have my dog on a leash, I don't find it ok for other owners to let their dog come over. My dog will be ok sniffing that dog and then he wants to move on. However, the other dogs never back off until my dog gives a snap, which also most dogs totally ignore. Often the owner is completely out of sight and here I am dealing with my and a strangers dog. I can't get my dog to be ok with strange dogs and I'm not sure what to do. We have those encounters all the time and my dog always does so well at first and then he snaps cause he wants that dog to back off. I'm not sure how to deal with that. Does anyone have any advice?

 

Also, I taught my dog some tricks of course and he was always a fast learner and a pleaser. For some stupid reason, I took some time off teaching new things and simply made him work on the old tricks. Now I'm back on the teaching train to give him a lot of mental stimulation, but he just often won't listen to what I say and simply does whatever trick he wants or thinks he should do to get that treat or to get to play tug. I just need to say his name to get his attention and he will get into a trick right away, without me saying anything yet. What are some tips you guys have on getting him interested again in learning some new stuff?

I've made my fair share of mistakes I'm sure and while he turned out pretty awesome, I do want to be a better companion to him.

Thanks so much!

 

That's him btw, Milo!

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Welcome!

 

I can't give you real advice about your issue with off-leash dogs and irresponsible owners because I have no real experience with that. I live in a rural area and rarely encounter a loose dog. If I do, it's a matter of me letting that dog know it needs to bugger off or it won't like the consequences. The only dog we encounter that is a problem (and that's only ever been on two walks) is a sneaky, attack-from-behind sort of dog so I just have to keep a close eye on her and I carry a stick if I see she's loose. She will give us space if I am proactive in that way.

 

I don't think the problem is your dog - like people, dogs have personal preferences. Smaller dogs tend to be less intimidating on sight than larger dogs; friendlier dogs tend to be less worrisome than more aggressive-looking dogs. But Border Collies seem to have a definite idea of personal space and many do not like dogs that get in their face, friendly or otherwise - and many popular pet breeds (think Labs and Goldens, for instance) tend to not respect other dogs' personal space in their oftentimes close-up-and-personal behavior. Your dog snaps because the other dog is not reading the subtle dog-language signals that he is giving to say that he's done with the encounter and would like to be left alone and move on. A growl or an air-snap is communication - however, given to the wrong dog, it can result in a scuffle and so it's not what you want to have to rely on (as you already don't want to).

 

The best I can say is to teach your dog to focus on you rather than other dogs as much as possible. You can teach behaviors that are calming. And you can make it a practice to be your dog's advocate by placing yourself between your dog (who, hopefully, will be maintaining a sit/stay or stand/stay) and the approaching dog, and deflecting the strange dog the best way you can. Without an owner nearby to help, or even with an owner but one that's clueless, as many are, you have found it is up to you to handle the situation.

 

There are lots of people here who live in more populated areas and will have a lot more experience with your sort of situation, so I hope they chime in with advice you can use.

 

Very best wishes!

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As for training, he is smart and is offering behaviors that have gotten rewards in the past and so he is trying things again that he knows, is comfortable with, and that have worked. So, if it's not what you are asking for (whether you use luring, shaping, or whatever other approach to training you choose), do not reward unless it is either what you ask for or the first (or later) step in what you are asking for.

 

Perhaps try working through some old tricks or physical activity before trying new things - tire him out just a little so that you take the edge off, and perhaps he will be in a better frame of mind to pay attention and offer you new behaviors. Some dogs do better when they are very fresh and others do better when they have had a chance to work off some energy/excitement.

 

Again, there are many, many people here who are much better trainers than I am, and I hope they jump in to offer you their good advice.

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First, thanks so much for your response. I very much agree with what you said about my dog just trying to communicate that he wants to be left alone. And I totally respect him for wanting it that way. If he doesn't want to play or interact with another dog, then I'm cool with that. He started this new thing where he then hides behind me and leaves me to handle the situation. I hate that he has to be uncomfortable and intimidated because so many owners just don't intervene and let their dogs do whatever they want. There have been plenty of fights because another dog simply wouldn't back off. I'm not sure whether or not to "punish" my dog, because sometimes one snap from him makes another dog snap back and there they go fighting. Yet I believe my dog has done nothing wrong. For some dogs, he will be extremely stiff and get into a stare-down before they even approach and yet, the other dog will still come over. If I have my dog focus on me, he will especially then lose his mind when the other dog approaches and won't leave him alone. For a while I didn't realize that I get tense myself whenever a lose dog approaches, and I've been working on always having a calm attitude, to not give my pup the impression that he also needs to be tense. It's been working for sure, but it still ends up that he snaps at another dog to get him to back up and me yelling at the owner to get their dog. So frustrating!

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Also, about the training. I find the more tired he is, the less attention he pays and the more he just does anything he knows to please me and get that darn reward already. He also gets distracted very easily by whatever sound he hears. I have been taking him into my room to train and keep him from all distractions, including my roommate's dog and my cat. I've been using a clicker to immediately show him if he has done what I asked for.

I'm wondering if he just doesn't see me as a leader. As if I'm not to be taken too seriously.

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It sounds like you are very observant, and that's a good thing! Most of us learn when we are fresh but some of us, dogs included, do need the edge off to concentrate. It sounds like he needs to be fresh.

 

Don't get all worried about him not seeing you as a leader. And some dogs are much more easily distracted than others. In that case, you need to find what makes you irresistible or at least more interesting than other things, and that's not always easy. Sometimes it's a matter of the right reward, whether it's a treat or a toy or play. Try finding treats that really get his attention (and remember than not all dogs are as food-motivated as others). Hot dog bits can be very enticing but too much can upset the tummy so maybe a little bit of tiny hot dog bits in a bag with some string cheese bits - it will all smell like hot dogs but will be easier on the digestion!

 

At least on the walks, he is indicating that he is expecting you to provide protection for him from other dogs by hiding behind you. That's a big sign that he is expecting you to be his advocate and to stand up for him, protect him, and get between him and the dog that he doesn't want to interact with. It's a tightrope act for you - to be firm with other dogs without going too far, and to (hopefully) avoid other owners going ballistic on you because "Fluffy is very friendly and only wants to play and you are mean!"

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I'll second everything Sue has said. :) Your dog is NOT wrong in his reactions to rude dogs. Border collies can be very space conscious and very sensitive to pushy, rude dogs who don't take his signals to leave him alone.

The thing to know about his breed is this: border collies have been bred for countless generations specifically to be sensitive to personal pressure and body language. That's how they move sheep, by body language and the silent pressure of their presence. They step in, the sheep moves off. So if a rude city dog barges in and tries to be "friends" when he doesn't want to be friends, it mentally backs him into a corner. It's like some big, loud, obnoxious quarterback grabbing you around the neck and rubbing your head in a noogie even though you've already told him several times you don't want to play. :blink:

Furthermore, he's not wrong in hiding behind you to let you handle it. That's his last line of defense before he snaps at them. My advice?

Handle it. Make that dog go away. Step between them and block the strange dog's approach. This shows your dog can trust you to keep him safe, plus it could keep things from escalating into a dog fight.

You might even consider carrying a hiking stick. Those can be pretty handy for warding off dogs that are overtly pushy and in-your-face to other dogs. I don't mean yelling and flailing and making a big scene. That would only make you look unhinged and upset your dog more. :ph34r: But you can quietly and firmly make a pushy, obnoxious dog uncomfortable just by blocking his approach and making further advance look uncomfortable. Be assertive, be calm, be firm, demanding and no-nonsense - make yourself the main thing that strange dog has to think about. And if it takes a little clip under the strange dog's chin, so be it. People need to control their own damn dogs. No matter what anybody says, you have every right to protect your dog and keep him from having to fight to protect himself.

As for the trick training sessions, I think it's pretty common for border collies to try and anticipate what we're going to ask. They're kind of smart alecks that way. :P Seriously, though, it's not that he doesn't see you as a leader, it's just that he's too darned smart!

Without seeing your training sessions, we can only guess what's going on, but you might think of how you might change your training sessions. Are they too long? Too short? Are you too enthusiastic? Too boring? Are you calm in your commands? How good is your timing in rewarding the correct response? Are you working in distraction-free places? Are your training rewards high value enough? Again, I'd say just stop and consider whether there are some things you could change in the way you train.

 

But meanwhile, per the loose strange dog thing, I think he sounds like a perfectly normal Border Collie who tries very hard to be polite to rude dogs who don't understand politeness. He only snaps at them when they've ignored all his other hints to be left alone. So, step up and protect him, guard him from those dogs. Just be calm and in charge, and consider if a hiking stick might help. Best of luck!

~ Gloria

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Sue and Gloria have said all the things I would have said if I had gotten here first. It is all great advice.

 

I will especially second the carrying of a stick to ward off loose dogs. Do, however, get your own dog used to it ahead of time so that it doesn't frighten him.

When I was living in a place that had many loose (and in my case, dangerous) dogs, I got myself a tactical baton. Online, about $20. Don't know if it is legal where you live, but I found it a great tool. It is only a foot long and attached to my belt, but with a flick of my wrist it expands to 28" of steel. No matter how many or how ferocious the dogs were coming toward me and my dog(s), if I snapped that thing out they never came closer. I broke up dogfights with it as well, and never once did I actually hit a dog with it. I would have, if I had been forced to, but the dogs always scattered when they heard that snap and saw the steel in my hand.

It is good that your dog gets behind you; means he trusts you to protect him.

 

My border collies, and my terrier, often throw behaviors at me as soon as training time comes. My way of dealing with it is, if I have not asked for anything and they start throwing behaviors at me, I turn my back for several seconds. Then turn around and give a cue. When they do what I ask they get treats. Do what I have not asked for, I turn around. It doesn't take long for them to settle down and remember that the fastest way to get the food is to wait until I ask for something and then do it. Unsolicited behaviors are never rewarded, unless I am offered one that I am just starting to train, and then I will reward in the interests of shaping the behavior.

 

You have a very cute dog. Welcome to the BC Boards.

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Thank you for your input, Gloria!

Well there has been a few times where he would snap as soon as a dog would come close. He got stiff when another dog was still a distance away. He's got a very good sense of who he likes and who he doesn't like. The hiding-behind-me is a new thing he started and I prefer that much more over him trying to handle it himself. He's been always very weary of other dogs ever since he was an 8 week old pup and all the socializing we did, did nothing to change that. He's a bit of a baby in that sense. When it comes to humans, he loves them all. Babies, children, grown-ups... Giving kisses, if wanted or not, is his specialty.

I will however try your advice to basically deal with unleashed dogs without my dog having to do anything. We've been very lucky so far that every fight we've been in, none of the dogs have ever actually bitten. *knock on wood

About the training.. maybe the rewards are not at all motivating. I basically clicker-trained him. He knows that the click is associated with the correct behavior. I have him do a few tricks, clicking each time he's done it right, and then eventually reward with treats or a round of tug-of-war. I switch it up so he doesn't get tired of the same old thing. But maybe I should get some really irresistible treats. Maybe the hot dog idea Sue suggested.

You two have been really helpful. I always thought my dog is not really aggressive, but more trying to tell other dogs he's not interested. But it sure looks aggressive and I'm sure other people think he is. Yet it's their fault for having their dogs off-leash and they just constantly run over to mine. My dog is usually so uninterested in other dogs, he won't even go over to greet them when he is off-leash. He could basically care less. Children however.. Boy does he love them. Perfect height to give smootches.

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Hmm.. good question on whether or not a baton like that is legal. I should check that out. I never thought of a stick to get in between dogs or ward them off. It would have been super useful for that one time an aggressive dog broke out of the yard and came after mine and my roommate's dog. Me with two dogs in a fight with another was a very hard thing to deal with. I still avoid going by that house as that dog is always in the yard on his own, all day long it seems.

I would just hate having to pull a stick out like that when the other dog is clearly friendly. We encountered one last weekend and the dog really just wanted to play, she was super cute. Just my dog didn't think so and she didn't get his clues about that we're done greeting each other.

 

I will definitely try the turning around whenever he does something I didn't ask for. He actually hates that as I do it when I come home and he wants to jump all over me to greet me. Thanks for that idea!

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I have seen other people with vests or leads which are brightly coloured and have writing on them. One of those saying something like "not dog friendly" or "reactive dog" might work for people whose dogs are in sight and under control. It won't do a thing if a human is not there or has no control though.

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Your dog might be confused with the training. Each click should follow with a reward. Clicking numerous times for numerous behaviors and then eventually giving a treat, is probably confusing him. Click, reward- should be the sequence to be the most clear to the dog.

 

If the dog knows the behavior, there is obviously no harm in asking for several tricks before rewarding or praising him. But clicking for each and not rewarding for the click, is probably confusing him.

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Agree about using a click/treat (c/t) every time he performs a behavior you want. (I have been taught that EVERY click is followed by a treat - even if you mistakenly click at the wrong moment.) Keep the reward ratio high if he is losing interest. After he knows his trick, you can back off a little on the treats. Then surprise him the next time and treat a lot. Keep him guessing.

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As above posts have pointed out, you are not using the clicker correctly for clicker training if every single click is not followed by a treat or reward of some kind. Doing it the way that you are doing it is not clicker training, and is likely very confusing to the dog. Certainly will not be effective in training the dog the way that using a clicker correctly is.

 

I highly recommend getting a good book on clicker training (check Karen Pryor's website for good ones....she is the person who developed clicker training in the first place) and read about how to do it correctly, or go online and find good clicker training videos (kikopup has several excellent videos on training). Once you are using a clicker correctly you will see a big change in how your dog responds.

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Very interesting. Our obedience trainer has told me to use it the way I do, basically that the clicker replaces the treat/reward eventually. Great! I guess I will be changing that. I just read up on the "always follow a click with a treat". Thanks everybody.

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Very interesting. Our obedience trainer has told me to use it the way I do, basically that the clicker replaces the treat/reward eventually. Great! I guess I will be changing that. I just read up on the "always follow a click with a treat". Thanks everybody.

I suggest dumping that trainer and getting a different one. Sadly, that one doesn't know what he or she is doing. So glad to hear that you are learning the right ways, and I wish you all the best of luck. Ask us if you have any questions or problems; we are here to help.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I just read this thread for the first time. Sounds like our Jade, very particular who she wanted to be friends with. In the woods walking she would be free but when others were encountered she was taught to return to me where I would put her on a leash. Next I would step back off the path if they were approaching to let them pass. Two feet past us all would be fine and we would be on our way. You could feel the anxiety, the leash and stepping aside would defuse the situation. There was a great comment about retrievers, yes they go way to close to the invisible dog comfort zone. Sounds like your doing well.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Ramp! Thanks for your response. I'm glad to know that my pup isn't the only one who is so particular about making friends. Usually what I do too is put him on a leash as soon as I see someone. Our problem however is that other dogs often off-leash, don't get leashed, don't listen, simply run over to me and my dog and that's where usually the problem begins. My dog mostly wants nothing to do with them and often doesn't even care about greeting them. I've been learning to be better about getting in the way and putting myself between the dogs. Whenever we get to the woods, quieter areas, there is always at least one person with a dog whose dog doesn't give us space. It's very frustrating. I wish my dog was better with it, just so I don't have to worry about it every time.

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Delfina,

 

We live in a rural area surrounded by watershed land, great walks and swimming for the dog. I always took the side of Jade, we were the respectful ones in our shared space. How many times have I heard from owners, "Oh she loves other dogs", while I stand there patiently smiling. Jade would stand her ground. If the invisible space was violated, she would not stand down. She had the heart of a tiger. Yes, often I would intervene to diffuse the situation as you allude to. Best for all parties.

This has been said a million times. Sharing time with a Border Collie is like nothing I have ever experienced and I've had dogs my whole life. If you are able to connect with them, the relationship is truly special.

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