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Breed Snobbery


ToffeesDad
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Now as far as a dog reconizing a breed, it's not possible
Can you please reference the source or sources for this?

 

Also, I don't think anyone here is that naive to think dogs are snobs and bigots in the human sense of the word. I think you'll find that most people on these boards are intelligent enough not to anthropomorphize dogs. I think the words snob and bigot were used more in a humorous vein to demonstrate a point.

 

Vicki

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We may be talking semantics to some degree but I still feel a large amount of the way a dog acts is determined by the owner. The owner should be the alpha and dictate a large amount of how a dog is allowed to act. I know alot of people who think they are the alpha and yet the dog runs their life. If dogs are anti-social with breeds other than their own it is a learned behavior because nature does not produce specific breeds. Whether is learned through lack of socialization or from an owners leadership (or lack thereof) I still believe it is a learned behavior and in many cases bad for all involved.

 

Yes, I know I'm making generalizations but this is a public forum and I'm making general comments.

 

Matt

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"Now as far as a dog reconizing a breed, it's not possible"

 

"Can you please reference the source or sources for this?"

 

Check out "The Truth about Dogs" by Stephen Budiansky

 

I don't have my book with me so I can't tell you exactly where but there is a portion in the book that covers some things about that.

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Oreo is a border collie mix and has no breed specific issues with other dogs. I have never noticed him prefering border collies over other dogs either. He happily plays with the lab and jack russell in our agility class and adores my son's pug. We have yet to have Lucky in a class but she loves the pug, too.

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As Melanie has pointed out, people breed dogs for particular purposes that produce individuals within the species which share certain behavioral and physical characteristics. As I mentioned, even sheep show preferences for certain sheep - the experiment offered sheep a choice between doors with pictures of faces - ovine, human, and canine. No opportunity to smell or hear or even see body language. They showed consistent preferences for sheep that looked like them - ranked by sheep in their flock, sheep from their hirsel, sheep that looked like sheep from their hirsel, sheep the same breed as them, sheep with the same physical characteristics (white faced vs black, horned vs polled), then humans they knew, strangers that looked similiar to humans they knew, smiling humans vs angry looking humans, then dogs that looked like the dogs they were familiar with (medium working sheepdogs vs toys or giant breeds).

 

Temple Grandin has also done similiar work with cattle.

 

In flock or pack animals, it's a survival instinct to recognize and prefer members of the community. Why would one doubt this ability when it makes logical sense?

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I have spent some time watching my dogs with other dogs both at off-leash parks and at SAR work, agility, and herding work.

 

There was a boxer that my male dog hated! I speculated that if you watch a dog trying to be a pushy dominate dog that they have a certain posture, head up, neck arched, tail up and stiff. Now look at the posture that a boxer takes naturally, arched neck, upright tail stub, head up. Boxers have been bred to look like that for years. Have we created a dog that looks like it has conflicting body posture with how it really feels? He has no real problems with other dogs. He doesn't appreciate pushy in your face dogs but would gladly go his own way. If provoked he will air snap but will not pick a fight.

 

Where we go work sheep there are always about 12 border collies running around. He is fine with all of them, even the new ones. His favorite friend though is a great dane. She is the only dog besides my other border collie that he will honest to God play with.

 

Olivia

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from Toffee's Dad

I know many people dissagree but as responsible dog owners, we cannot attach human emotions and feelings to our animals. It leads to many problems and misunderstandings.
Oh brother, that ruins all my fun-I'm always talking for Piper because all she does is bark. Does that make me a freak? You mean Piper doesn't have human emotions and feelings, do you mean she is just a dog?

 

I agree, in my other post in the other thread I called Piper a bigot, in a humourous way. But for whatever reasons, she likes other BC's more than other dogs and I don't believe that has anything to do with me and my actions because usually she sees them before I do. Also, though, for the most part she could care less about other dogs.

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anti-social with breeds other than their own it is a learned behavior
Are you saying that breeds that are known for being dog aggressive, are not really, that they are developing these behaviors because of their owners expectations whether intentional or not?

 

Vicki

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I attended an agilty trail with my young GSd for socialization a few years back. It was on a beautful facilty, complete with a small lake. Of course the dogs were rewarded with a swim between courses. All the owners mingled but the dogs stayed in their breed groups. About a dozen border collies held one end of the beach, the 3 Gsds swam at the other end and there were a couple of bull mastiffs (sisters)that stayed in the middle. Everyone was off leash and all day long, the group of border collies stayed at their end even though different bcs and different dogs came and went.I don't remember any conflicts over toys and I don't remember anyone finding it that unusual.

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I think that the "preference" for one's own breed in respect to Border Collies and their breed mates is often found to be true with the dogs I know locally in the Pacific NW. These dogs are not dog aggressive with other breeds, just that if there are border collies available, they will be the ones chosen for play and interest. I think of it more as a choice of interest, not that it is negative to the other breeds.

Caroline

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ToffeesDad, I'm just curious where your opinion is coming from. It seems to me that you have not owned a BC for very long, yes? Perhaps other breeds. You quoted one book - and it is to be pointed out that there are MANY dog training and dog behavior books, and most of them contradict each other at least in part, as authors all have their own opinions. So I think the rest of your opinion comes from your own metaphysical belief that dogs CANNOT distinguish breeds, for whatever reason. And while you are quite free to have your opinion, it is JUST an opinion. The rest of us here have witnessed and experienced some form of breed recognition, and I'm sure there are just as many books that state that there IS such a thing as those that don't.

 

And while I do see your point in that many dog behaviors are in part because of the owner's behavior and opinion and attitude (they pick up a lot), I think that if a trait is common to an enitre breed it is doubtful that is the owner's doing. Some things ARE bred into them. Some things aren't.

 

My Oreo reacts mainly to other dogs' behavior. Our other dog reacts to other dogs' size. Some dogs react to other dogs' color. Some scent. And really, a breed is a very complicated thing. Who are we to say that a dog CANNOT recognize such a thing? It is a construct by humans, yes - but yet it is still recognizable by us, and dogs are far more receptive to non-verbal clues. I certainly wouldn't put it past them as a possibility.

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How can we know for sure what dogs can tell or know about other dogs when we can't see what they can see, smell what they can smell, hear what they can hear, etc?

 

My one dog can tell 2 of our virtually identical cats apart better than we can. I tell her to "get" one or the other and she is almost unfailingly right.

 

Baby, who would not let another dog get within a hundred yards of her when she was a stray formed an unbreakable bond with Zeke (a B&W BC-Lab) almost on sight.

 

We, as humans, can tell in most case differences in race, national origin, sex, ethnic background with visual and/or aural indicators. You can tell pigs from horses from cows (and probably sheep) stictly by smell.

 

Now to me, for the most part, doggy do smells like doggy do. Zeke would always urinate where Amanda (Lab) did, but never where any of the others would. This wasn't done by sight either.

 

I guess what I am saying is not to be to sure the refridgerator light is out just cause the door is closed

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Lunar,

 

I respect your opinion and I'm not saying I'm absolutely right. I do think that you have your opinion, I have mine and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

I will tell you that my opinions are based on opinions I have formed through reading ALOT of books. Yes, many books contradict each other and I have formed my own opinions based on what I have read and my own experience, probably like everyone else has done. Part of my reasoning for my opinions is the fact that many of these behaviors I have heard and read others talk about are behaviors that I have learned can be very bad. My BC used to have some of these aggressive behaviors and through my own personal "re-training" I have corrected these problem behaviors and my dogs and the dogs they come into contact with are much happier for it.

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The study about the sheep makes absolute sense to me. I've got a pretty mixed up flock - Corriedales, Montadale crosses, Dorper-Dorsets, Finn-Dorsets, and Tunis ewes, and Border Leicester and Rambouillet rams. For the most part, the sheep "hang out" with their own kind (although the rams hang out together regardless of their breed). A funny example of (dis)comfort with (un)familiarity happened when I introduced a black ram to my then all white flock. The ram ran around the field in "girls, girls, girls" mode. At the same time, the "girls" ran around the field - trying to get away from HIM -- over and through fences. The only thing I could think of was that they thought he was a HUGE border collie :rolleyes: Even stranger, quite a few of the black lambs born that spring were initially rejected by their white mothers (when one twin was black and one white the black one was rejected at a higher rate than I typically find in my flock). This is less of a problem now that a percentage of my flock has black/colored wool, but I still occasionally have some problems with white mothers rejecting their black offspring.

 

Toffee's "Dad" -- I think we're talking about two different things. I thought you intitially asked whether border collies are breed snobs which I interpreted to mean, "do they like to play with other breeds of dogs?" I don't see any reason to correct my dog for not wanting to play with other dogs, or to train it to play FWIW. Now it seems like you're talking about being aggressive, which is another ball of wax. So what is your question?

 

Kim

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Matt - I don't know where you are going with this - you keep asking us to let you know if you are "way off base" and as soon as we disagree with you, you come right back and tell us that according to book "X" we are wrong.

 

So what are you trying to do?

 

I think the general concensus is that most people have animals that prefer their own kind. But you say it can't happen.

 

If I wanted a dog that acted like most Golden's act (crazy, happy, loves any and all dogs - IN GENERAL) than I would have purchased a Golden. But the breed itself is known for this and that's not what I wanted. The Border Collie seems to be breed racist in my own experience. I do not consider a curled lip and a bit of growl from my dog to another "in your face dog" to be agressive or needing to be "re-trained." If you define 'aggressive' behavior as the above mentioned, then perhaps you should have bought a Golden?

 

I'm not trying to be harsh, but many people come into the breed not knowing enough - expecting the "black and white Golden" (as someone else noted) and not getting it.

 

You can spew quotes from books all day long but really, the majority of the posts on this thread alone go against what you say. Perhaps everyone's experience and their honesty in explaining these to you will, hopefully, open your mind to a different way of thinking. Not just about breed recognition but about the general behaviors of Border Collies as well.

 

Denise

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I'm pretty sure (as sure as I CAN be, until Finn learns to speak English and can say for himself) :rolleyes: that he has breed recognition. He picks out BCs as more interesting (at least initially) than other dogs. However, I don't think he classifies them in his head as "a breed", or as "other BCs" or anything like that. I think he recognizes them as a group who has an appealing commonality with him. His kinda dogs, in other words, dogs who are in his greatest comfort zone and are most interesting to him, have the most familliar body language and activity, etc. They share a common culture, in a sense (and before we get into that argument, it isn't anthropomorphizing, IMO, to say that animals have culture - this has been described for a number of communal species). In BCs, who have particular postures and behaviors that are bred into them, it could be said that part of their culture (which includes behaviors and actions deemed accptable in that culture, as well as commonly-accepted cues, etc) is based on their breed - genetically, not just as learned behavior. Obviously, all BCs are individuals and all have their own "take" on BC-ness. But I do think that at least some of them have breed recognition - again, not saying they think "this is a member of my breed" so much as "here's a dog who speaks my language", metaphorically speaking. I think some DO recognize other members of their breed, but they don't characterize this group as "a breed" in their minds. And who's to say how much more they know about breed ID based on their sense of smell, as someone pointed out? Since their sense of smell is estimated to be anything up to 10,000 times as sensitive as that of a human, I have to believe that to some degree dogs live in a reality of which I have no *real* understanding. I know what it's like to be able to diagnose certain illnesses based on my sense of smell, but I have no idea what it's really like to be able to scent and track a unique individual many hours after they have passed that way. Even though I HAVE a sense of smell, the sense of smell a dog has is a reality beyond my ken.

 

Obviously all of this can be modified - enhanced, discouraged, or initiated - by training and by an owner's cues, be they conscious or unconscious. I'm not sure it can be completely extinguished, although the outward evidence of it probably can be (although why would anyone want to do this?) Wolf packs will sometimes drive away members who are too different, probably as a survival mechanism. But I wouldn't characterize that as bigotry. That requires thinking about it on a level that even BCs don't do.

 

Anyway, JMO.

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Toffeesdad, what behaviours are you refering to exactly?

This post has been most interesting, and generally I can find something in most of the replies, and your posts, to agree with, but I am a little lost on the snobbishness link with the alpha and learned behaviour you keep quoting. BTW I am an alpha theory supporter but also a breed snob, the former goes down the leash the latter doesn't. And if you don't think they know their own come on over and we'll show you different! Tia even braves a regular flogging (not serious) from her 'your the same as me' boy at the park. And he's a short hair licorice allsort (Tri BC), she's a b/w fluffy barbie, they look nothing alike!

And Cherie, I read your post about the chasing and herding of the non BC's. Tia does this, and gets herself in a lot of trouble on occasion, I'm working on it but do you have a strategy for when the other dogs take offence?

Sally

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Happy hates german short haired pointers, when she see's one you can see the fire in her eyes, and show just wants to tear the dog to peices, this cant have anything to do with me not like the breed seeing as how I DO like the breed lol before I got Happy I was about to adopt a german short haired pointer named max. Happy has never had a bad experience with one because she has never actually met one, because well you cant get her near one lol. now I am not to sure how she would know that if Max had not been adopted already I would not have had her lol now Happy lives with a bosten terrier/schipperkie well for the first time in her life she met a purbred bosten terrier, who by chance is also dog fear agressive lol, and Happy took me by suprise when she nicley sniffed Junior and wagged her tail happily, not so much as a show of teeth from her. I most certainly believe that in breed recignition lol

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Cannot resist jumping in on this one, even if a bit belatedly. Jester reacts in a totally different way to other BCs from the way he reacts to all other breeds of dogs. There have been some "playmates-of-the-day" that have been Labs or Goldens, and he has been unfailingly patient and kind to puppies of all breeds, which makes me proud and pleased. But there is no mistaking the way that he reacts when he meets another BC. The body language is entiely different. It seems to me from what I have observed that they communicate more easily - almost as if they already have a code established or speak the same dialect of Dog. As I knew nothing of this phenomenon prior to observing Jes, and would actually prefer it if he liked all breeds equally (all the more playmates!), I highly doubt that I am projecting anything onto Jes. BCs just like BCs, that's all. They actually *are* a superior breed in some ways, and they recognise this in each other. This is not so hard to understand. Human beings recognise each other, too: a University professor may recognize another by how he or she speaks; people recognize each other's class by how they dress; gay and lesbian people have "gaydar" that often recognizes another gay, lesbian, or transgender person regardless of circumstances or appearances. Dogs have perceptions that far surpass our own - I think we would all agree on this. Not so hard to understand that they would like to greet and interact with their own kind best of all.

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My younger dog doesn't like boxers. He tangled with one once, and now gives any boxer, especially ones that are the classic tan color, the evil eye.

 

Another case of a dog recognizing breeds--in this case, a breed different than he is.

 

Different dogs have different abilities to categorize information--the smartest ones clearly have the ability to think within abstract categories. Some recent research in Germany (on Rico the toy-recognizing dog, among others) appears to show that at least some Border Collies have cognitive abilities similar to those of a human three-year old. This is very reassuring to me, quite frankly, because it means that I no longer have to dismiss some of my dogs' behaviors as being impossible--that no dog could be that smart. Border Collies, evidently, ARE that smart.

 

I had a Border Collie cross several years ago who hated motorcycles, but only if someone was on it. She wouldn't react to a parked bike at all, but would go nuts if she saw someone straddling a bike, even if it wasn't running.

 

She also hated hot-air balloons and would growl and bark at them, even if they were miles away.

 

(She was a pound dog and came with a lot of issues).

 

MR

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Matt... (I AGREE WITH SOME OF WHAT YOU SAY !) Well I read about a dozen responses and stopped (seeing a pattern). Please anyone excuse me if I am repeating what someone may have already said... but Matt I AGREE WITH YOU!!! as far as people transmitting "feelings", of fear, aggression, and dislike! (whether it be for another critter or another person). To deny that this is true is to deny our dogs ability to perceive us. I have had dogs all my life and I am 57 yrs old. I have had "pure" breeds and mixed breeds. I am now raising my 2nd BC.

I agree with what you said about people having pre conceived opinions about the Rotti, German Shepherds and Pit Bulls etc., and I also KNOW as a Pet Trainer, that the way a dog is raised is a VERY LARGE part of how she/he grows in personality and attitude. There are dogs (just like humans!), who have "mental" issues and no amount of training can help. Dogs do have brains after all so they to are subject to the same types of "life experiences", good and bad as we are. These experiences develope our personality and the way we respond to life. Some are "changeable", some are not.

There are most definately breed snobs, and as far as I am concerned that is fine, however, if a person feels the need to look down at either me or any one of my precious critters, that is their (human), problem, I would never blame the dog.

I do believe that some dogs do recognize their own breed and respond accordingly, but I also believe our dogs DO pick up on our ways!!!!

Some dogs are much quicker and easier to train than others, but a mentally/physically healthy dog is alway trainable, by the right person!!!

JoeAnne

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I also KNOW as a Pet Trainer, that the way a dog is raised is a VERY LARGE part of how she/he grows in personality and attitude.
But then again, I doubt every (many) border collie owner(s) is(are) the breed snob(s) you disdain and is(are) somehow communicating this to thier dogs. A more plausable explanation is that border collies actually recognize and generally prefer the company of their breed. I'm a huge proponent of training, but I don't think this explains the whole picture, at least as far as border collies' interactions with other dogs go.

 

Kim

 

Kim

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I am a breed snob for border collies, but my dogs are not, my BCs group BCs in with every other dog, even though I like BCs way better then any other breed. yet I love german shorthaired pointers and my dog hates them. I fail to see how my feelings are being transmitted in any of these cases. Happy does not like dogs she does not know peroid. BUT she gets this unmistakable fire in her eyes when she see's a pointer, when not in a racing situation, she will try to attack the pointer, she will go beserk, and I have to hold her very tight and very close, with any other breed, she will bark and air snap, and thats it, she will not try to attack the dog, she just barks out of fright, her posture and attitude is entirly differnt at the sight of a pointer, she looks like she wants to kill the pointer. IN a racing situation however she runs like a cheetah, normally she only runs fast enugh to beat the other dog, when she is running against a pointer she runs as fast as she possably can, and watching the dog the whole time making sure she is in the lead by a longshot, its like she will NOT loose to a pointer, she will not let herself. again I fail to see how I am transmitting this when I LIKE pointers lol

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Originally posted by Wolverine:

Cheri, please show me in my post where I said you, or other BC owners, are snobs. As I recall, I specifically stated that "I do not believe that BC owners...are necessarily snobs." So if you are going to respond to my posts, at least get your facts straight.

Wolverine, Please don't take offense, I didn't. I was laughingly referring to myself and my dogs. It was a good topic and I enjoyed the discussion. Thank you for it!
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