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Bonnie and Sheep


Maja

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I have been reading many topics on this board including the philosophy statement of the Board, it is clear that AKC is something bad for you. Since I have FCI dogs, then you must think badly about my dogs. I don't know AKC so I wont say anything on that topic. There are many things I really dislike about the Polish KC, but in countries like the USA or UK where two separate organizations flourish, and one has a free choice of not only either or but also both, it is all very easy.

 

However, in Poland the situation is quite different. There isn't and has never been an ISDS branch in Poland, the Polish KC was the only organization where one might find pedigreed purebreds and thus the only place for a person to use as an avenue for breeding if one wanted to do a good job.

 

And now if you are a member of the FCI in Poland you cannot be a member of ANY other canine organization whatsoever, and that includes ISDS (this refers only to the Polish KC). However ridiculous and incredible it may sound to you, it is true. That’s why there are maybe two or three people in all of Poland who are members of the ISDS. Someone told me once “So why don’t you quit the Polish KC if you principal interest is in herding (oops, stock work that is)?” The answer is simple: where would I breed my other sheep dog the Bernese Mountain Dog? In ISDS? And where would I compete with my great ISDS dog?

 

Before I have made the decision to breed my dog, I had the following tests done:

Dysplasia:

Hips: OFA - Normal (Fair) (yes, it’s the American OFA, I also have FCI grading, but Kelly is also OFA registered)

Elbows: OFA ED Normal

 

Genetic tests:

TNS DNA clear

CL DNA clear

CEA/CH DNA normal

MDR-1 DNA mutation – free

 

Other tests:

Cardiological test by CARD-VET – normal

Ophthalmology Examination – clear two consecutive years before breeding

 

The condition for the mating was that both the female and the male have normal breeding instincts (so no AI). Further use of Kelly for breeding depended (among other things) on her ability to take care of the pups in a caring and natural manner. The puppies before going to new homes had temperament tests conducted by a specialist (there were very general test on sound sensitivity, curiosity, confidence, etc).

 

And yes, I had to go to three shows and get "excellent" or "very good". That was the only condition from the KC for Kelly to get a license. Horror of horrors she got "excellents" and she even got one "Best Adult Bitch". So if one asks me if I bred Kelly because she is a stock dog, then the answer is no, I didn't - she had to prove herself in many different ways, and being indispensable on the farm was not enough :rolleyes:.

 

Because the KC is the only avenue for herding in Poland it is also pretty good. That it if you appreciate the fact that herding in Poland has existed for less than 10 years.

 

For those interested, the FCI has split herding styles into BC + kelpie as CS (collecting style) and the rest of herding breeds as TS (traditional style). The first exam is HWT - herding working test which is not very difficult for BCs and very easy for non-bcs. But after that there are trials pretty much ISDS style as far as I can tell. There are about 30 dogs that have the HWT in Poland, a few that are in class II trials, and one that is in class III.

 

Of course now people who have gained some experience in herding bring in also dual registered dogs from other European countries, which is really great.

 

So I wanted to clarify this. Perhaps you still think my dogs are no better than pet-shop pups, but at least you'll make an informed decision :D . I wanted to put this post somewhere else but I could find a really suitable topic.

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Maja

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I have been reading many topics on this board including the philosophy statement of the Board, it is clear that AKC is something bad for you. Since I have FCI dogs, then you must think badly about my dogs.

 

I doubt very much that anyone thinks badly about your dogs. Speaking for myself, I rarely if ever make judgments about how people in other countries should handle their dogs' registration, especially when I know as little about the situation in that country as I do about Poland's. I confine my judgments to the USA.

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I have been reading many topics on this board including the philosophy statement of the Board, it is clear that AKC is something bad for you. Since I have FCI dogs, then you must think badly about my dogs. I don't know AKC so I wont say anything on that topic. There are many things I really dislike about the Polish KC, but in countries like the USA or UK where two separate organizations flourish, and one has a free choice of not only either or but also both, it is all very easy.

Maja

I'm not sure why you got so distressed over this issue but perhaps I can clarify. Yes, in the US and the UK, there are two separate registries (confining our consideration to the primary registries) for Border Collies. Since the AKC and KC recognize the Border Collie in the show and performance sports primarily rather than on working ability (AKC does have a "herding" program that awards titles and the KC does have a title that reflects a working test in addition to conformation showing, although interest in obtaining that has been, historically, abysmal), and the ABCA/USBCHA (registry/handlers' association) recognizes the Border Collie based on working ability (USBCHA sanctions trialing, which ABCA supports), it is easy to see that one group is supportive of working ability and the other supports other, non-working uses of the dogs by providing recognition (titles) of those non-working accomplishments.

 

In the UK, though, there are dogs that are both registered ISDS and KC because, in order to export excellently-bred working-line pups to other countries (France, for instance) where FCI is the only registry allowed/recognized, the pups/dogs must be registered with the KC, which is the registry recognized by the FCI (as in your case).

 

So, rather than to say we might look down on your dogs because you are essentially forced to conform to certain regulations pertinent to your country, I would say you (in your efforts to train and work your dogs on stock) are trying to do the best you can in a difficult situation, where you are allowed very little personal choice.

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Dear Sue and Eileen,

 

Thank you for replying. But that's why I wanted to explain, because he most natural thing is to project one's own situation unto another country, as it has been in this topic with the availability of sheep for instance. Recently in Poland people have started to import BC from sound European stock, although they still have to face the shows in Poland if they want to breed them. For males it is more difficult because they must obtain three 'excellents' (a female can get away with very good). Which is an additional difficulty - in most other countries in Europe it is enough to get 'good' in conformation for breeding, or even (as is the case in France I believe) just breed pedigree to pedigree without show conformation. A similar situation is in the Czech Republic, where ISDS and FCI seem to cooperate quite well, and herding there flourishes.

 

Maja

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So after the explanation here comes again the FCI Bonnie :D , 10 months old this time :D.

 

In the video, we are doing:

- a little of figure eights,

- teeny-weeny outruns,

- a little wearing,

- actual fetching (I am not sure I am using the right term - Bonnie and the sheep are one place, I am in another and she brings them to me

- coming to me from the balance position.

 

Bonnie does not know the directions yet - come bye or away. I was told to wait with it until I get a good distance on her, so I am doing it, but finding it a little cumbersome sometimes. I've tried to start on driving but didn't succeed. It goes better on the larger pasture, and the last couple of times we practiced in the training area to get started on the teeny-weeny outruns (if one may call them that at this stage). Also in the training area I allow her a smaller distance provided she goes straight and the sheep are calm. Also later, each time I set her in a position in the direction I want her to go.

 

There is the original audio, but mostly you can hear strong wind (Earl here? :rolleyes: ) , so the best is mute.

 

So FWIW :D :

 

Maja

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Thank you for the comment :rolleyes: . She also lies down a lot on her own. I taught her to stand, which she does well e.g. when we are walking towards the sheep and still have far to go. But when we are actually working the sheep, she lies down on "stand". I don't correct her for that but I don't praise her either. She has become very sensitive to my voice, and I think she lies down just to be on the safe side, which means I must use a gentler tone of voice for 'stand'. I introduced 'stand' as looser sort of command than lie down. Because of the wind you can't hear probably what I'm saying to her, but sometimes i say 'stand' and she lies down. I think she'll get over it if I can manage to control my voice a little more. Apart from all that, I do have an awful habit of using lie down way too much. The way I work now is that I record what I we do, and the wathc it at home, and I write down notes for next time, so I will add "kick myself everytime i want to sey "lie down" :D .

 

best wishes,

Maja

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Lie down ... stand ... same thing. Either way, you're stopping her rather than making her think and making her responsible for deciding what is too much pressure. It looks to me like where she lies down on her own is now habit for her because she's anticipating that those are the places where you're going to lay her down anyway. It does not look like she's clappy and is lying down in relation to what's happening. Then again, I'm not a trainer, never claim to be, and have a hard enough time showing someone what I mean. Explaining it over the internet is almost impossible. If I find something that explains what I'm getting at, I'll post it.

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I think I know what you mean, and in general I was agreeing with you, explaining what are all the other factors. This training area is not so go for training at this stage in general, but I went there to start on the outruns. There is an area behind that is unfenced and if I can get my courage up, I will go to practice in the open.

 

Maja

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From here, the training area looks fine. What I see is all the "walk up," "lie down," "stand," etc., commands ... and her only responsibility is doing what you tell her to do. It makes for a very mechanical dog. You're stopping her before something "bad" happens, and making yourself responsible for everything that goes on. She doesn't seem to be feeling where the sheep's "bubble" is because she's never allowed to hit it, and pop it, scatter it up, and go through the hassle of cleaning up the mess. She has no reason to rate herself because you say "walk up," and she walks up until you tell her to stop (either in the form of "lie down" or "stand" ... whichever you decide). She stops, and stays there until you tell her to walk again.

 

I am probably not explaining this correctly. Then again, maybe this is one of the many reasons why I suck at all of this. Perhaps a truckload of salt is appropriate here.

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On the last video, at 5'28" or so I manage to get the situation where Bonnie is close to the sheep and I am far away, and she brings to me the ewes with the lambs (the rest just runs tome as soon as bonnie gets up). However, this situation is very difficult to achieve, because if I leave, the sheep follow me. In this situation, Bonnie is on balance, then the sheep then I. But I was wondering, maybe I can put Bonnie between the sheep and me, walk away and then she would go on balance, and bring them to me. I like her bringing the sheep to me because the then truly works the sheep. I am a bit afraid to send her on "outruns" when I am away from the sheep for fear she'd scatter them, but maybe I should do that too now? In the movie with the 10 month old May and Denise, it is easy for Denise to walk away from the sheep and thus create repeatedly a genuine situation for the dog to bring the sheep to her. With the sheep I have, I have to manufacture these situations.

 

Maja

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If the sheep won't stay where you want them, you can set out some yummy grain that hopefully will keep their attention. (That, sometimes, is more trouble than it's worth if you have a dog that doesn't have a lot of power and has trouble lifting heavy sheep, but that's a conversation for a different day.) If you never give Bonnie the opportunity to be wrong and are always preventing something "bad" from happening, neither one of you will know how to fix it when it does go wrong. Let her be wrong, and correct her as soon as it happens. When you send her on the outrun, the second she starts cutting in, stop her and kick her out. Once she has a good understanding of the proper shape of an outrun, lengthening it happens pretty quickly. Bonnie doesn't look like she packs a whole lot of power, and seems pretty harmless to the sheep. Try it. Trust your dog.

 

How often do you take lessons? And what is your trainer's philosophy on preventing wrongs v. correcting them?

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If there is no other way except the grain I will do it, but if blocking the sheep with Bonnie is not wrong I'd rather do that, because my husband will murder me for feeding them grain - Zoe can stand by the gate for hours on end bleating like some abused starved sheep beggin for oats. Drives him nuts :rolleyes: .

 

(That, sometimes, is more trouble than it's worth if you have a dog that doesn't have a lot of power and has trouble lifting heavy sheep, but that's a conversation for a different day.)

Cameroonians are very light, but Bonnie so far had trouble with other sheep only once (they didn't' want to come out of the pen because the had been hassled by previous dogs and even the assisting dog had trouble taking them out).

 

If you never give Bonnie the opportunity to be wrong and are always preventing something "bad" from happening, neither one of you will know how to fix it when it does go wrong.

It's not as though she never does anything wrong :D , I have only recently got a reliable lie down on her. But I do understand what you mean. It is yet another balance in herding (stock work seems to me to be based on a multitude of dynamic balances between contrary oppositions) that I can't seem to be able to achieve.

 

How often do you take lessons?

Ay, there is the rub. Last time I had lessons 1-5 August (it was a clinic) , next time I will go Sept 15th and then Oct 12th. That's the best I can do now. At home our practice varies depending on various things like lambing pouring rain, and it's between 15-25 min. a day every day to 15-25 one a week.

 

Bonnie doesn't look like she packs a whole lot of power, and seems pretty harmless to the sheep.

She is :D . That's why she is now allowed to practice with pregnant ewes and little lambs. Earlier, she didn't have a good enough stop, but now I can lie her down even in the middle of havoc.

 

And what is your trainer's philosophy on preventing wrongs v. correcting them?

He is much more towards making sure the dogs succeeds. But of course simple answers are usually too simple. At the camp, there was a very nice dog that did everything that the handler told her to. And the instructor told the handler: she is doing everything for you, she must also do things for the sheep. That's from a guy that usually says "she is working only for the sheep, she must start working for you." So he is very much depending on what dog the handler is working with, and at what stage the dog is.

 

For Bonnie it seems very important to move forward, when she is doing easy things she becomes restless. When its' too difficult she becomes frustrated. Another balance.

 

Thank you for your input :D . I will try some things tomorrow and include all the mishaps in the next video :D .

 

Maja

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So here is today's session with the good, the bad, and the ugly. I am quite happy with it because the ram was "in a mood" - one of the ewe being in season again, and herding with my older dog was nearly impossible. I don't handle her now anymore, but since my husband is away gallivanting in the US, I thought I'd work with her a little, but Kelly and the ram hand constant issues and it was not pleasant to work. So I was concerned about how Bonnie would do, but she is so - I don't know - unobtrusive, non-challenging you can hardly see anything out of the ordinary with the ram or the flock.

 

With much less correction Bonnie weaves a lot more, but some of it is justified by the way the flock tends to spread out. But there are very clear moments where she figures out how to get the job done without weaving. Also a couple of times I make mistakes either by setting her wrong for the outrun, or by placing myself wrong.

 

At the very end, when we walk away and I mean to end the session, she actually looked back with that look in her eye "Gee, boss we forgot about the sheep". And off she went. In those situations even a Mighty Holler does not stop her, so I usually don't try. She brought them nice and clean all pleased with herself "Here they are, boss!" So I let her take them out of the training area an partly towards the home and called her off the sheep again. This time successfully. I do it without the leash anymore.

 

And sorry for the wiggles of the camera in the beginning, later instead of me the fence post is the cameraman (camerapost?) and it is more steady :rolleyes:

 

 

Any input will be of course appreciated.

 

Maja

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My actual goal is to help Bonnie to beas close to her full potential as possible. But I don't know how good she can be. She is only 10 months, I am not a good handler, and I don't have an easy access to the trainer. But I love Bonnie to pieces. If you get a dog from very good working lines, you can set out from the start some kind of goal, I suppose. But I just want to take it easy and see where we get together.

 

The Polish KC is the only one that organizes trials in Poland. Competitions used to be quite a vibrant area of activity, although there were not many people involved. Now there are more people working their dogs, but the KC herding subcommittee is suffering form some paralysis and there were no competitions this year at all. But that does not stop people from trailing - they go to the Czech Republic or Slovakia, since the Czech people as usual are years ahead of us and much better organized. So a person with a working dog just has to go further.

 

The system for trailing now is that a dog has to pass a Herding Working Test, and form there they go to trials, class I, II, and III, which is the highest.

 

Here are fragments from a trial in Poland in 2008, class I - the lowest. There are Polish, Czech, and Austrian people there, and the judge is Austrian. The dogs are from different backgrounds ISDS, FCI and mix.

 

 

Maja

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I forgot to add: only in class I trial is the handler allowed to walk with the dog, and there is no shedding. In class II shedding is added and the handler does not leave the post, the outrun is longer too of course.

Maja

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To give you the scale of dog herding in Poland:

There are at present 22 dogs eligible to work in trials. There of them are already retired, so there are 19 dogs in all of Poland that can potentially participate. In reality the number is much smaller. The number is doubled since the introduction of the HWT, which is easier to pass than the previous trial qualification test.

Maja

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So on the link you sent a couple of posts ago for the trial there in Poland, who sanctions a trial like that? And just to give us an idea ... how many entries would be at a trial like that? Is there a website that shows what the eligibility requirements are for dogs to work at trials? Is there a list somewhere of the dogs that are eligible? In your opinion, why is there such a low number of dogs that re eligible? Is it because the requirements are too hard? A low number of dogs overall? Population? Too expensive to own property and livestock? By the way, how much land do you own?

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So on the link you sent a couple of posts ago for the trial there in Poland, who sanctions a trial like that?

The Polish Kennel Club. The judge was Marion Fuchs. If a judge is not FCI, but ISDS (though some judges in Europe have dual registration as a judge) then there has to be an FCI judge present as well.

 

And just to give us an idea ... how many entries would be at a trial like that?

As I said earlier the entrants were from Poland, Czech Republic and Austria. For class I - 12 entrants. For class II - 4 entrants. There were no Class III entrants.

 

Is there a website that shows what the eligibility requirements are for dogs to work at trials?

In order to participate in a trial the dog has to pass the Herding Working Test:

http://www.fci.be/reglements.aspx

 

Is there a list somewhere of the dogs that are eligible?

Yes, there is one here:

http://www.border.wortale.net/art.php?art=224

However, Besi Miveko, Aris s Cesalki, and Frankie Akumulator are retired.

 

In your opinion, why is there such a low number of dogs that re eligible? Is it because the requirements are too hard? A low number of dogs overall? Population? Too expensive to own property and livestock?

To begin with, Poland used to have lots of sheep, but as a result of some economic collapses here and there in the seventies, the sheep industry is almost nonexistent. The presence of border collies in Poland is not something with a long history. I think the breed appeared in Poland in the 90ties. The first dog that started trialling was Aris z Cesalky in 2003. Of course he trialled in the Czech republic, not in Poland. The first Polish competition was in 2004. We bought our fist BC because we had sheep, but I think we were one of very few people who did it in this order then. Now, if someone wants to do herding as a sport, well, it's a an expensive sport.

 

I don't think the exam is difficult. But most border collies came into Poland as sort of urban dogs. It is slowly changing though, and more and more people import working lines dogs and more people mate border collies that work. There is more and more tendency, I think, to consider that a well-bred border collie should be a working border collie, and that those dogs will show in areas unrelated to herding will show the most promise. I remember I was once once approached by people who wanted to make sure their puppy will be from working parents, because they wanted "the smart border collie". On the other hand the working border collies are often considered to be much more difficult and require a much more experienced handler. So not many BC are used for stock handling as their primary purpose in life (as opposite to sheep being used to be handled by dogs as their primary purpose of existence).

 

The HWT, I think is not difficult considering the requirements that are for class I trial. It's a good introductory test, with the exception that it contains elements of cross-drive which do not appear until class II.

 

So considering the conditions for raising sheep, the number and type of BCs present in Poland, I think there are quite a few dogs with a working status. This is so, because some people just want to get the HWT and do not intend to go any further, because they want this for their show achievements. On the other hand there a few rising stars with dogs bought from working lines, so I think at the HWT the competition will be easier, but at the trial level it will be tougher. Also I must mention here the issue of handlers - the most experienced handler in Poland has been doing it for about 11 years only.

 

By the way, how much land do you own?

Only 10 acres, and it's in three pieces.

 

Maja

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