He refuses to listen!!

[Lindzey]

Hello all! It has definatly been awhile since I last posted. I do miss the friendly faces and wonderful advice!

 

Almost, my 14 month old BC, has refused to listen to simple commands since we adopted him. (His mother is pure-bred BC, father is pure-bred black lab)

 

I will admit that we (as a family) have been pretty lax with his training. Allowing him to pull us on the leash now and then (which is now, to no ones surprise, a constant affair) as well as allowing him to run around the backyard offleash and shrugging it off when he doesn't respond to "Come" or "No!".

 

However, I am beginning to get sick of his refusing to listen. These past two months (Dec/Jan) I have been working hard on his - basic - training, though most of the training is done on the weekends as I am a High School student.

 

I began with "sit", knowing that that is something Almost knows well. He will do it perfectly and punctually at some points, and other times, he acts as if he knows no such command and even when I put him into the sit position, he pops his rear back up.

 

As with the down command, it is very similar to how Almost responds to "sit". Sometimes it is picture-perfect, other times he just looks at me, wondering why the heck I am demanding that he do something... I know that the ranking of Alpha is not in question. I have no doubt whatsoever that Almost knows I am leader and he is the follower.

 

He just refuses to ... follow sometimes.

 

The one thing that always gets him to behave and follow commands is when I have treats (whether it be kibble, scraps, BilJac, etc.). I hate that he relies on treats! I stopped giving him food rewards, because I was sick of having everything based on his stomach... But lately, I've been so tired of him refusing to listen, I am using treats again. Hmm, imagine that. No problems listening and following through on commands!!

 

I guess I'm asking for assistance. I hate using food all the time (and yes, we tried click-training and it failed miserably). Am I doing something wrong? Is Almost just that horrible at listening?

 

If it adds into anything, he is the "middle" (youngest) dog. His older 'brother', Just About, is very obedient and was off-leash trained the day we adopted him from the shelter when he was a pup. Could Almost be jealous of the attention?

 

I'm very very open to all suggestions and comments. If you can think of something I haven't done, then I'm sure it'll work!!

 

~Lindzey

[bc4pack]

A lot of people have problems fading food.Sounds like it's become a bribe instead of reward.

Have you checked out the training articles on www.clickersolutions.com or www.shirleychong.com

 

When you say you 'tried clicker training and failed' exactly what do you mean?

 

Food does need to be faded.Common misconception that clicker trained dogs HAVE to be always rewarded with food...how about a ball/frisbee?

[bc4pack]

Um...one more thing to consider and no disrespect,he's also a teenager...

[Lindzey]

That's how I feel about it... food being a bribe instead of reward.

 

Same with now, the only way the clicker training worked is if I had food (even tucked away, hidden). Almost was very responsive this summer when we began clicker-training. It worked for about two weeks, when it was click-treat first and second times on command, then just click on the third command. Click-treat fourth and fifth, just click on sixth, etc.

 

Funny thing with toys, is that Almost seems to have no interest whatsoever in toys of any kind. The only way he will chase after a ball is if his brother is doing so. Even the few rare times Almost gets the ball (or frisbee or chew toy or whatever) w/o Just About chasing after it, Almost will only pick it up in his mouth, immediatly drop it, and then run off and find something else to do.

 

The one thing that I know Almost would put his whole being into is jumping (our fence is low and he is never allowed to stay outback by himself, beCAUSE he jumps the fence). Almost is a very high jumper, and his whole spirit lifts when he is running and jumping...

 

However, before I even consider doing my own back-yard agility course (there aren't ANY courses near me) I need Almost to respect me, listen to me, and follow simple commands EVERYTIME I say Sit, Down, or anything else!

 

Thanks for the tip, BC3pack.

[Lindzey]

"he's also a teenager"

 

You've got a major point there, BC4pack! (And no disrespect taken, I totally understand!)

 

So would that really have an effect on how he treats me? I know that there are "human likenesses" in dogs as far as age, but will this attitude run through his system eventually?

[bc4pack]

Yeah, they do go through that phase of testing their 'parents'...

If he's going through any growth spurts, that also affects behaviour and yes most often they do outgrow a lot of 'selective hearing'.One just has to be consistent with a bit of patience.

There are a lot of good articles on those sites.

 

There's also a neat Yahoo group called Training Levels that you might be interested in,good info in their files.Actually www.yahoogroups.com has another really good group to join if you're really interested in canine behaviour...called 'agbeh' or aggressive behaviour in dogs,all positive methods,nationally known positive trainers responding with suggestions for people having all kinds of problems with their dogs...just a thought.

[Maralynn]

Do you do any training during the week? Even just 5 minutes twice a day helps.

 

Also, do you do "Nothing In Life Is Free"? Make him work for whatever he gets - he wants his breakfast, he has to sit first - he wants to go outside, he has to sit first. He's got to do something to get something. If you google Nothing In Life Is Free, you'll find alot of good information.

 

With the ball, have you just thrown it for him, or have you made it the best thing in the world when he gets it? It took me about a month of WORK before my younger dog would get excited about playing ball. I would get excited and "throw a party" when he showed even a little interest in the ball. He has gone from running right past it when I throw it, to watching my pocket for the ball when we go out to the field. He'll also look for it when it dissapears in the snow. But it took time and effort on my part! My other dog had chased the ball from the get-go.

 

Good luck with your "teenager"

[hoku's mum]

Others have beaten me to most of what I would suggest, having been dealing with Hoku's teens for a bit now. We call it the Halo and Horn period. Some days his halo shines so bright it's almost blinding. Then there are the horn days :eek: NILIF has been a life saver around here. We have noticed that when we really crack down on him (heavy NILIF), he responds so quickly. The other big help are those short (2-5 minute) trainings 2 or more times a day. He really gets more connected when we are consistent with that. When we get lazy or to busy, he starts pushing things again. Doesnt really matter what we work on, a trick, basic commands (sit, down, back up, etc) what ever, just make him think and work a bit really helps focuses him on us and our 'partnership'. What has helped his recall alot is using a 50 light line on him when he's off leash. That way you can enforce your 'come' if he blows you off.

 

Not sure if I understood your problem with click training, but EVERY click must be followed by a treat. It's the C/T that can be faded, but not just the treat. The click will then be somewhat meaningless.

 

Don't know what causes those lapse into horn-hood, but when they cycle around, we just tighten everything down, make him work for everything, and they are passing with less pain each time. Hang in there, there is light at the end of the tunnel (we hope!!!)

[Bordercentrics]

The thing that stands out with me is that you were trying to fade the food way too soon. You don't do that until you KNOW ABSOLUTELY that the dog understands the command completely, and that it is imbedded in his brain. Then you go to random rewards. Depending on the dog, the reward may not even be food. It could be a favorite toy, or praise from you. Next, you gradually increase the number of behaviors between treats.

 

None of my dogs need treats any more, but I would never train a dog with any other method but clicker training. I have tried them all, and if done right, clicking teaches new behaviors best. This is because the dog is motivated to learn in order to get the reward, so clicking is very enjoyable for him.

 

Get a basic book on clicker training that not only tells you how to train that way, but also explains how the dogs learn. One that is very easy to use is Peggy Tillman's Clicking With Your Dog. It has great illustrations, step by step, for training each behavior. And you answered your own question about why your dog doesn't listen - because you haven't taught him that he must. This requires consistency - making the dog do what he is told every single time!(AFTER he has learned the command) Good luck.

 

Kathy Robbins

[Lindzey]

BC4Pack, thanks a ton for the links. I've barely just glimpsed at them, but I do like the look of the group.

 

Maralynn, I do some training after school. Most of it is done inside (for now) and pretty much just for 5 minutes. I've grown to having Almost with me 100% of my time indoors, with his leash around my waist and him on my left at all times. He's beginning to "acclimate to my presence". And to tell you the truth, he's beginning to whine, while actually staying in the down position! This seems contradictory, but he is never "down" and whining, always up and running or sleeping while in "down" (as you know, must dogs don't sleep standing up!).

 

I've begun to use the "Nothing in Life is Free" and actually... it seems to be working! He didn't take the food I offered just now, I'm hoping its simply because its his least favorite kibble.

 

As for the throwing of the ball, I've just ... thrown it. I know to get a dog excited about it, the handler him/herself must be as well. I'll try that, thanks. It's just a bit difficult right now (because he isn't responding fully to "come" yet) and I have to run along side Almost with his leash, and boy does he love to run... FAST! (Typical BC, I know)

 

Hoku's Mom... I like that: "Halo and Horn Period". Very fitting! I'm not sure I really want to do click-training again (as of right now) for different reasons. It's partly due to the fact that I don't know if I can be patient with starting over and I'm not sure if Almost will be patient as well. We'll see how my NILIF goes.

 

Bordercentrics, you said "The thing that stands out with me is that you were trying to fade the food way too soon. You don't do that until you KNOW ABSOLUTELY that the dog understands the command completely, and that it is imbedded in his brain." I agree slightly, but my biggest fear with that is I've heard 'horror' stories about dogs that are fully-dependent on food rewards, and considering Almost is pretty much there already, I'm not sure if I want to reinforce this behavior.

 

Thank you all for you input, I'm open to any other possiblities and comments.

 

Hope to hear from you all soon,

~Lindzey

[MaggieDog]

One quick thing - the horror stories you ehar about food dependent dogs are invariably about dogs with owners who don't know how to properly use the treats w/ a clicker (they come right after and you shouldn't make a move to get them until the click) and/or they don't know how to fade the food lure.

 

I've gone so far as to hide small containers of treats around the house out of dog reach so that I can click and reward without having food on me and that seems to really help when it comes to avoiding food reliance.

[hoku's mum]

Try a fifty foot line of light rope (like parachute cord) when you are outside playing ball with him. You can let him run, but just keep the cord in your reach, so you can control him if need be. I put knots in it every 10 feet or so, so I can just step on it to stop Hoku. It really helped us alot. You may want to wear some light gloves, as I got a wicked rope burn one day when we were walking on our neighbors ranch, and a gang of young cows stampeded by. Hoku started to give chase, but I was able to call him and reinforce it with the line, but it was hard on the bare hands!

 

Also, whatever training method you use, keep it fun, and end on an up note. Set Almost up to succeed, and you will progress a lot faster.

[Meg's mum]

Lindsey, if its any consolation I have a 14month old that has a similar history and behavior pattern. In my case I not only had an aversion to the development of food dependency, but the only food my pup is motivated by is human junkfood. To make matters worse she is so soft to sound that a click sends her into hiding on a pantry shelf six inches too narrow to accomodate her.

 

We use the holy 'ball' as reward, we are using NILIF more stringently, and the 25', 50' and 100' dragging leash but there are two more things that seem to really be helping....

 

1)we use looks of shock and sounds of great surprise when she is non compliant and when she's being a little devil

 

2)we took a week long vacation without her.

 

We've only been back from the vacation for a day and a half, but it was astounding how well she responded to us. It made me wonder if the chance to 'miss' us a bit melted the teenage chip off her shoulder.