Dominance Issue in Border Collie ....

[Wwhorse13]

Hi all. We rescued a border collie (mixed with a little something else perhaps) a few years ago when we found him as a VERY skinny, wormy youngster and he is a great dog. He's quite laid back in the house, very sweet with people and gets along most of the time with our other dogs. We're sure to give him plenty of exercise and are aware of a border collie's need to have a job and do things that stimulate their brain.

 

I stumbled across this forum and figured it would be a good place to ask a pretty important question. Noah, our border collie, is quite a jealous pup. He is extremely attached to my mom and if she's lying on her bed, Noah is right up there with his head on her chest. Then, if one of our other dogs comes up to visit, Noah will growl if they get too close to my mom. Usually it's not much more than a growl. Also, when he's outside and running up and down the fence (if there's a lawn mower outside the fence or a person) and if he's busy trying to herd something, if another one of the dogs gets in the way, he snarls and gets very upset. Recently, the dogs were barking at something outside the fence and our Irish Setter got in Noah's way, and Noah snapped at him and started fighting with him. Our setter is a typical Irish Setter, not an aggressive bone in his body, but when Noah started fighting with him, Quinn, the setter, didn't back down and fought back. During that fight, my mom was able to grab the Setter and then all was well.

 

Today, they got in another fight. We're not exactly sure how it started, but my mom was sitting in her recliner and there may have been a chewy toy on the ground. Quinn, the setter, came walking over to Noah who was by my mom and Noah snapped at Quinn which started a big dog fight. I tried to spray them with a water bottle, to no avail, so I ran over there and somehow grabbed Quinn and pushed Noah away with my body.

 

Noah doesn't just grow/snap at our setter, he does it with our Sheltie, as well, but they've never gotten in a fight, because the sheltie runs away when Noah growls. Also, when our Sheltie and our Setter are playing in the yard or in the house, Noah constantly runs over there and growls to separate them and stop them from playing like he's the parent telling them to quit.

 

Again, he's a very sweet dog and sometimes he plays with the other dogs and is fine. Neither Noah nor Quinn got hurt, but I'm so afraid that one of these times the fight will get serious and somebody will get very hurt.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions? He LOVES us and again, is terribly sweet, but I'm not sure if he thinks he's alpha or not. For example, he's quite stubborn and when my mom asks him to sit, he'll do it most of the time, but when she tells him to lie down, he almost refuses. He would never snap at she or myself, but just refuses to lie down. You basically have to grab him and put him on the floor from the sit position.

 

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. I'm also willing to provide more information if need be.

 

Thank you all, in advance.

 

- Lauren

[Sue R]

Welcome!

 

There are many people here much more qualified than I am to comment on your dog's issues but I'll give you my take on things. First is that while "dominance" is a catchy word and made very popular by certain trainers, it isn't the answer to every problem, or maybe even to many problems.

 

One thing you need to realize is that it appears that several of these problem behaviors have been going on for some time, so a quick and easy "fix" is not necessarily going to happen. Instead of "fixing" some of these because they have become ingrained behaviors, you may simply have to manage to avoid the situations that allow them to happen.

 

With regards to your mother and to desirable things like chewie toys, what your dog is doing is "resource guarding" - or, this is mine (or I want it to be) and I don't want you to get near it because you might get it. Dogs can resource guard a variety of things - people, food, toys, locations (like a crate).

 

For instance, when your Mom is on the bed, it might be best to not allow Noah on the bed - and, if he wants to prevent another dog from coming anywhere near the bed (or in the room), maybe he needs to be moved outside the room and into his crate (if you use a dog crate) or into another room.

 

If chew toys are an issue, make sure that all have access to things that are equally desirable (always make sure there's at least one more than the number of dogs as playing "musical chewies" requires that). Make sure your dog knows that toys and chewies don't belong to *him* but rather belong to *you* and you can give and take away. You might not even leave these things on the floor but rather dole them out and then put them up when the play/chewing is done. You *own* the toys, not the dog. Therefore, you are in control of them.

 

For chewies like bones, you might find feeding them in crates or different rooms (or different parts of a room) works. My dogs get fresh bones in their crates and then, once the newness is worn off, the bones can be out in the family room where the dogs can pick and choose.

 

When a dog is focussed on a moving object (like the lawn mower or person outside the fence), another dog distracting or interfering can often result in a snap or tussle - this is a form of behavior where the intensity of the original preoccupation is redirected at the interfering animal. I'd ask why Noah is outside and busy being obsessed with the movement outside the fence without supervision and someone to stop that behavior.

 

I see two alternatives - either you leave him outside alone to continue this undesirable behavior (obsessing over movement outside the fence) without the possibility of another dog getting involved and a fight occuring or you don't leave Noah outside unsupervised. I have three Border Collies and no fenced yard. The dogs are never outside without supervision and then undesirable behaviors don't have a chance to develop because one of us can step in and do something before it becomes a habit.

 

Again, management can help if the behavior is already ingrained or something else is unavoidable (like your circumstances mean that Noah has to be outside for some period of time without supervision - but, if that's the case, maybe crate-training could help so that when he can't be supervised, he will be safe and confined).

 

While spraying with a water bottle can be very effective for some dogs and some situations, it may be totally and always uneffective for other dogs and may be just too ineffective for intense situations. Again, management that avoids allowing the undesired behavior to happen might be your best option. Baby gates used to separate less-compatible dogs into different rooms or sections of the house might work for you.

 

We used to have two adult, intact male dogs that would be fine for weeks on end but when something would set them off (and we couldn't see what it was much of the time), it would be a fight to the death. We realized that we simply had to separate them - both led good lives and had plenty of attention, but we had to use our heads and avoid the opportunities for fights to start.

 

Noah sounds like he is one of the dogs that considers himself "the fun police". There are dogs like that that get agitated when other dogs play or play fight. Again, separation may be your easiest and surest option.

 

If these behaviors were brand new and not established, I'd have suggested different approaches, and working to let Noah know that these behaviors were not acceptable, along with avoiding the situations that trigger them. But, since they seem to be long-term and ingrained at this point, management might be your best option.

 

There will be others that will give you much better and, I hope, more useful advice. You might also want to use the "search" function at the top of the page to see if other topics here have addressed similar issues and can offer you some helpful tips. Meanwhile, best wishes!

[Jedismom]

Sue (as usual ) gave some great advice. My dog Cadi is the "fun police" around here. I would crate her or put her in another room if Jedi was playing with one of our fosters and I still do this at times. I noticed though, that she would still be agitated when released. I wanted to try to change her attitude about it, so I placed some treats in areas of the house where I was likely to be. When she started her fun police duties, I would call her over to me and give her a treat. I would do this quietly and usually the other dogs were so involved that they didn't notice. After doing this regularly for awhile, she now comes to me for a treat whenever the boys start playing. I don't always treat her, sometimes it's just a nice belly rub. This has kept her calm and gives her some enjoyment while the others are playing.

[urge to herd]

To add a bit to what Sue and Jedismom posted, border collies don't have much tolerance for being 'interrupted' when they're focused on something. They tend to have a much bigger 'personal space bubble' than a lot of other dogs. Dogs who give a playful shoulder or hip bump to a border collie aren't recieved well.

 

I've had a couple fun police dogs, too. A bunch of other dogs running around at a dog park would make Samanatha very nervous.

 

As Sue suggests, giving all the dogs more structure is a good idea. Allowing them to play together unsrupervised isn't working for your bc. Whatever obedience your dogs know, now is the time to polish it up. Teaching all three to wait their turn for a treat is a good start. There's a booklet called 'Feeling Outnumbered?' by Patricia McConnell for people with multiple dogs. She's got some great exercises and advice. You can find it at the Dogwise.com.

 

As far as his lying down on command, does he lie down easily when it's his idea? If not, then he might be having some arthritis or some other physical issue. If that's the case, then being bumped by another dog will really set him off.

 

Put some structure in place. Know that it will take time to re-wire your dogs and yourselves. And thank you so much for taking this boy in.

 

Ruth

[Shetlander]

Very much agree with Sue that this is resource guarding (RG), something many dogs are prone to. I have dealt with similar issues between Quinn and my Lhasa, Chili. Because I let it go on too long (not realizing the extent of what was happening), the best I can hope for with them is peaceful coexistence. I have achieved that but it took a good deal of work to get there and requires ongoing vigilance and management.

 

The really big thing is I have zero tolerance for any RG from any of my dogs. Any RG immediately results in the dog losing what he was guarding. That means, he loses my attention, my lap, the sofa, the toy -- whatever he was hoping to lay claim to. No dog has the right to tell another dog (or heaven forbid, a person) where they may walk, sit, lie down or play. Period. I also make every effort to pay attention to any quiet menacing or sneaky bullying. For example, staring at a dog who is chewing on a toy so he is uncomfortable and may abandon the toy, leaving it for the other dog to take over. Quinn is excellent at flying under my radar, but the Chili is not one to suffer silently so what I miss, he tends to point out. I then step in and restore the correct world order. It isn't always the dog making the noise that is the problem.

 

Management, as Sue points out, can be enormously helpful. One situation I try to watch is entering and exiting. Quinn and Chili sometimes get hyped up at doors, jockeying for place and it can escalate into snarking and even a fight. I started instituting sit stays and calm behavior before they are released to go out or in. After a while, I relaxed the rules and only make them sit-stay when they seemed to be getting hyped. There was a very small incident a couple days ago as we were going in to the house where they nipped at each other and I came down on them like the Wrath of God (sharp verbal correction and both put into down stays until they were calm and very attentive to my commands). That was my cue to pay more attention to doorways again.

 

Another example of management is when I see Chili getting too excited about something at the window, I step in to calm him because that is a trigger that sets Quinn off and can lead to a fight. Proactive things like that can go a long, long way to preventing problems and encouraging the behaviors you want. Look at the triggers for your dogs to RG or get into fights and see what you can do to limit those triggers. And as Jedismom points out, be sure to reward your dogs for the behaviors you do want. Positive reinforcement is very helpful in addtion to clear, consistent expectations and quick consequences for RG.

 

I would not let my dog run back and forth along a fence chasing a mower. That kind of heightened excitement and agitation really is not the frame of mind I want my dog to be in. There is also displaced aggression and/or further resource guarding like you are seeing with going after another dog who comes too close to the exciting "prey."

 

You may want to have a good trainer (which can be tricky to find) come in to help you establish control in your house. A good book on living with multiple dogs is "Feeling Outnumbered?" by Patricia McConnell. She addresses resource guarding and signs that your pack is stressed. Signs that you are already seeing with resource guarding, fighting, and the Sheltie being frightened.

 

Hopefully the issues with your dogs have not gone on too long because that makes it much easier to retrain the behaviors you want. Do some searching on resource guarding on these boards and you will find several threads that may be helpful. It is a very common problem among dogs, I believe. Left unchecked it can lead to truly dangerous behavior, bad fights and even dogs being terribly injured or killed. It sounds like you are in the early stages but please act swiftly to keep things from deteriorating more among your little pack. I was much too slow to react to what was happening between Quinn and Chili. For a while I was thought I was going to need to re-home one of them to keep Chili safe. Things are much better now, but I can never fully let down my guard around them. All my fault and I think it could have been prevented if I had been more aware of the changing dynamics between the two as Quinn matured into an adult.

[Wwhorse13]

Thank you all so very much! So many wonderful thoughts! We've already started implementing your thoughts and, although poor Noah is not terribly happy with the results, it's already starting to get the point across. For example, my mom allowed Noah to get on the bed last night, but ONLY AFTER she told him he could (no more running into the room and going right to his favorite spot on the bed). She also made it so he could only lie at the end of the bed, rather than up by the headboard with his head on her. He growled at Nicki, our sheltie, once on the bed last night, and my mom immediately dragged him off the bed and put him in a down stay in her bathroom. He got up twice and she put him right back there, but after that, he stayed there until she re-invited him on the bed.

 

We're going to try to make sure ANY growling, involves removal from what was going on. Poor Noah looks devastated when he gets in trouble and, to be quite honest, looks quite shocked that we'd discipline him and make him leave the room and stay in a down stay. Maybe we weren't originally as "alpha" as we thought.

 

Thanks also for the suggestions on Noah running up and down the fence. We always could tell he was very 'intense' when he did that, but figured it was what he enjoyed and that it was fine to let him do it. But after reading your comments, I can definitely see how a playful bump from our setter would interrupt Noah's instincts and could cause a fight. We will be sure to stop that behavior immediately.

 

Ruth, you asked if he lies down well on his own (as it could be an arthritis or pain issue). He definitely has no problem lying down when HE wants to and lies down quite quickly and fluidly whenever he's chasing something outside so I don't think it's a pain thing. I think it's more of a stubbornness thing because it's very submissive for them to lie down all the way and I think Noah just decides that he doesn't want to do it. Does it sound like something we should just work harder on getting him to do? I keep reminding my mom that he gets "ONE" chance to respond to the command (because I know for sure he knows exactly what we're asking, he just chooses not to).

 

Again, thank you ALL for your suggestions and help. We'll be sure to immediately react to any kind of growling, watch any toys that are on the floor, and stop the fence-running behavior immediately. Thankfully, most of the time it's fairly calm at our house with all the boys -- but two big fights is enough for us, and I'm so glad I had such a great place to ask my questions!! Thanks again!

 

- Lauren

[Star]

Hi Lauren:

Yes, he should lay down when told. Immediately. Every time. Keep us posted on how the mower chasing thing goes. Star won't chase mowers (they scare her) but she does does chase airplanes. At first I thought it was funny/silly and I was resoundingly chastised on this board. As per ususal, the folks here were right. It's no longer funny, and is often a PITA as we're on the approach to DFW airport. She does not, strangely enough, do it when I'm in the house and she does not chase the small planes from the airpark next door (thank goodness). Just jets. When she does, I use a leave it command, which works well but doesn't stop the desire to chase the plane. The behavior took hold very quickly and is so self rewarding (the plane ALWAYS goes away--as I'm sure the mower always turns away). I'd be interested to hear how this goes for you and if you have any ideas to make him ignore the mower completely.

[Shetlander]

We've already started implementing your thoughts and, although poor Noah is not terribly happy with the results, it's already starting to get the point across

 

Oh, yes. It can be a big shock to them when suddenly the rules change. I really had to get much firmer and sharper in my corrections than was my inclination. Defintely had to move out of my soft, submissive Sheltie comfort zone. The New World Order, as I said earlier. Quinn is a real drama queen and can put on quite the show of abused, unloved Border Collie. A few times after being released from a down in those early days, he'd just lie there looking like a poster dog for the humane society, clearly never able to stand again.

 

I think the new rules about the bed may be very helpful, especially if Noah's nonsense has not gone on too long. Waiting to be invited is an excellent move. Quinn is last on the bed after everyone else is settled. Forget about the sad, stricken looks. Clear, consistent expectations and leadership are good for dogs. They keep the conflict and stress down and the harmony up. Tell Noah he is a good boy when he is finally up on the bed, settled in nicely not bothering anyone. He'll want to keep being your good boy, though he may test from time to time.

 

I think it's more of a stubbornness thing because it's very submissive for them to lie down all the way and I think Noah just decides that he doesn't want to do it. Does it sound like something we should just work harder on getting him to do?

 

I'm not Ruth, but I would definitely work on the down. It is a great command to help a dog stop, settle or gather his senses. I would work to make learning a fast down very fun. I use food or toys and keep upping the ante until only a fast, flying down (as I called them when I did agility) earns the dog the reward. So I'd get Quinn very excited for a toy (in his case showing him the toy is enough to accomplish that ) but in order for him to get the toy he had to drop into an immediate down. It becomes more of an automatic response to the command rather than a disliked thing to be told to do or constant power struggle. You also want to keep expecting the down in less fun situations and insist that he down when told. Unless there is a physical reason he can't down easily and quickly, and that does not sound like it is the case, I bet you will find this a very helpful command.

 

Good luck and welcome aboard. Border Collies may sometimes make us work a little harder, but they are so much fun it is worth the extra effort.

[gcv-border]

I'm not Ruth, but I would definitely work on the down. It is a great command to help a dog stop, settle or gather his senses. I would work to make learning a fast down very fun. I use food or toys and keep upping the ante until only a fast, flying down (as I called them when I did agility) earns the dog the reward. So I'd get Quinn very excited for a toy (in his case showing him the toy is enough to accomplish that ) but in order for him to get the toy he had to drop into an immediate down. It becomes more of an automatic response to the command rather than a disliked thing to be told to do or constant power struggle. You also want to keep expecting the down in less fun situations and insist that he down when told.

 

Good luck and welcome aboard. Border Collies may sometimes make us work a little harder, but they are so much fun it is worth the extra effort.

 

^^^ Yes, this with regard to the down. The down doesn't have to be an awful chore for your dog to do. It can be a fun thing. Almost like playtime with toys and treats.

 

I try to show my leadership (not necessarily dominance as that word can sometimes have a very heavy, negative connotation) in small, non-heavy handed ways. For example, I want my 2 dogs to wait until I pass through a closed door before they go through. They know this, but sometimes they are too excited and they 'forget'. I can usually tell when they are excited so I am ready to 'correct' them for their 'bad behavior'. What usually works for me is to either open the door a little way, and when they rush towards the door, I begin to close the door. (No dog is hurt in this move.) They usually back up, look at me, and then sit and wait for the me to go through the door without me saying anything. Actually, once they sit, I tell them they are good dogs. Or else I may let them out the door, but then say 'Oops' or say "What are you doing?" in a light voice, and they (usually) immediately turn around and come back in and sit. Obviously, I did spend time training them to wait at the door in the beginning. What I do now is just to remind them about their manners.

 

I find this eliminates the chaos at the door.

 

The advice given by the previous respondents has been great. And you may want to extend your 'management' to other situations where you have a chance to create calmness out of chaos.

 

Jovi

[Sue R]

Kudos to you for putting new ideas to work right away! If you are like me, trying new things can be hard sometimes. And your mother is working with you on it, too, which is excellent - sometimes, when working along with other people, it can be hard if you both have differing ideas of what to do or how to implement change. It can be very counterproductive to have two people dealing with a problem from two different approaches.

 

As others have said, dogs (and I think Border Collies in particular) work best with structure, with fairness, and with knowing what is expected of them. A clear, fair, and understandable leader provides a sense of security and predictability in life that is very reassuring.

 

Remember to be fair, clear, and consistent.

 

Congrats, and very best wishes!

[urge to herd]

Ruth is back! I'm sure you were all wondering . . .

 

Really, like Shetlander, Jovi, and Star, yes. He should be hitting the down if you're sure there's no physical issue.

 

One of the things to remember is that w/a lot of border collies, tone of voice is very important. Sometimes not, Shoshone doesn't care what or how I say anything. If there's a cookie involved, she's involved, too.

 

However, too harsh a tone w/Gibbs just shuts him down. We have to keep things light, even cues. If I say 'sit' while I'm angry or tense, he responds sloooooowly. If I use a jolly tone, his butt hits the ground before I've got the word out.

 

'Down' might have become poisoned. Your boy might have been put in a loooooong down stay that just bored him to tears, and he's expecting that to happen again. These dogs remember everydarnthing. I think they take notes.

 

Anyway, Buzz loved to do puppy push ups. Sit, down, sit, down. He'd do those for me several times in a row, and he'd be grinning up at me, then I'd throw his ball or play tug with him. It became a fun thing for us to do, instead of something to be resisted.

 

Try doing some rapid fire commands with things he knows, giving a treat or tossing the ball or whatever he really loves in between each command. This is a great exercise for his brain and it builds the bond between the 2 of you as well. So, sit, down ( reinforce/treat/play) roll over, (play, or whatever) up, back, turn,(reinforce, reinforce, reinforce) Have fun with it!

 

In fact, trick training is a lot of fun in general, and might be just the thing to help Noah forget about the new rules. Good luck, and thanks again for taking such good care of him and your other dogs.

 

Ruth