Training Dilema

[ourwully]

Juno is now 22 months and a joy to be with. We have been training a few minutes every day since she was 10 weeks old. In that time I have hardly spoken a harsh word to her and the strongest correction has been a good strong correction on the leash. For the most part I have fed her one cup of kibble for breakfast and then used another cup throughout the day for training. She can do many tricks and her recall is pretty good most of the time. When we walk she often goes for a run here and there but she always returns and stays with us. If you would have asked me 2 years ago I would have been perfectly happy with her level of training, but since she has been doing so well, and since I know Border Collies can do better, I would really like to get her to the next level.

 

At this point we seem to be stuck in the "yes I will obey the command but in my own time" syndrome. This is where my dilema comes in. I am happy with the training so far but I still worry that in an emergency situation it won't be good enough. On the recall she comes most of the time and she is rewarded with treats or excited greetings. Sometimes, however, her response is sluggish and on the occasional time she just ignores the recall. When this happens I go and get her and bring her back. I have been doing this a long time now and things don't seem to be getting any better so I am assuming she doesn't get it. Lately I have gone to get her and then put her on the leash for a while but I am not sure that she gets the connection that failure on the recall means no off leash. I wonder if there is any way of being more stern with her without her thinking that obeying the recall isn't going to result in a negative response from me. Or am I just being too soft with her?

 

Getting her attention is probably at the heart of the matter. For the most part this is no problem but sometimes she just ignores me. For instance, we will be doing some training in the yard and she will get distracted and run off. So far my response has been to just leave and go in the house because I know she wants to be with me but I am wondering if I should go and get her to continue the training. This can be difficult, however, because I have a large yard. Maybe I need to do the training in a more confined space.

 

Overall, I am just trying to get her to obey commands quickly and consistently.

 

Any suggestions

Thanks

Bill

 

[gcv-border]

What is the most exciting thing in the world for her? Ball, tug toy, food?

 

I would start working on getting her excited to come back to you. How do you reward her for returning? A treat and excited greetings? Anything else? I am always looking for ways to be exciting for my dog, and sometimes giving them a treat is nice, but not the most awesome thing in the world. You have got to become awesome!

 

A treat or a ball is all well and good, but you can certainly amp up the excitement for her to return to you. I often train a recall by exploiting the dog's desire to chase (me). It is can be more exciting to train this with two people, but if Juno has a decent stay, you can do by yourself. [basically, I use a restrained recall technique in addition to the chase instinct.]

 

Have someone hold Juno by her chest (not her collar) - or have her sit - then lead out about 20 feet holding a favorite toy. [if she likes tug toys, I like to use those the best.] Get her amped up {Juno, Ready, Ready, Ready???} Call her name and command, then you run away from her as fast as you can holding the tug toy by your side. When she catches up, play excitedly with her and the tug toy. Start at shorter distances, then build up to longer distances. But most dogs will usually go streaking after their owner to catch up and get their treat - the running away helps amp them up.

 

Oops, I gotta go - but I am sure others will chime in with good ideas. There are other subleties to recall training that I don't have time to type, but the main idea is to not be BORING. Run away, then reward when they get there.

 

If my dogs are a little slow in coming back to me, I will do a few rounds of the chase recall training to remind them that they need to move faster.

[alligande]

My first guess would be that you need to make the reward more exciting as Jovi suggests. That could be a higher value treat, and exciting toy etc. Think about what your body language is, are you issuing a command or is she coming back to the funnest person on the planet. The chase game is lots of fun for dogs and people, I play it for a fun game when we are killing time and have space at an agility trial.

I was helping another couple of trainers (I was the only one who spoke English as a first language hence the explaining fell to me)work with a newly widowed older lady who was having problems with the young dog who had been her husbands dog, and after an hour I got her to understand that if she was happy she would want to come back, there was no need for a "formal" approach and it worked immediately.

[Sekah]

Sounds like you could benefit from the Freecallers material offered by Susan Garrett. Does anyone know if it's still available? I recall seeing that she'd opened it up publicly so you don't even need to register to view it. It's all about understanding what motivates your dog and learning to control it to your advantage. Otherwise, I agree with the information above.

[ourwully]

Outside advice is always eye opening! When I think back her recall failures are usually when I am being boring so I will have to try and be consistently more exciting.

 

Although I do a lot of the things suggested, and I will continue to do them, I still wonder when I should expect a command to be obeyed just because it is a command. There are times when I would just like her to come because she is called, not because I have done something to make myself more exciting.

 

I hope I am not coming off as being too negative here, as overall, I am really pleased with Juno and her progress.

 

thanks again

[CptJack]

When can you expect a command to be obeyed because it's a command?

Um. Never? You can expect compliance when you have built enough of a reward history with the dog for value to have been transferred from the reward (or excitement) to the command itself, and you can expect that at some point it will become a habit, but you can't expect a dog to ever say "Yep, he said so, gotta do it."

So basically, IMO, you need to up the value of the activity and then randomize the reward when value has been transferred and for it to MAYBE someday become a habit, but if you're expecting the dog to obey just because, like, ever? You're going to be disappointed. Likewise if you entirely stop rewarding ANY behavior, ever (even on a rare/randomized schedule, with various levels of rewards from praise to the best thing ever)? The reliability is going to fall off. Even if it's something the dog has done for a decade.

 

There is nothing intrinsically rewarding to a dog in sitting, or recalling, or walking on a loose leash or - most obedience type commands or tricks. You have to MAKE it rewarding - unlike something like 'bring the ball back' or 'work sheep', where there is inherent fun. There is a lot of intrinsic reward for a dog in sniffing, or exploring, or chasing butterflies or whatever. Hence the need to build a strong history to MAKE what you're asking the dog to stop doing those things for worthwhile for your dog.

 

*ETA:* The reverse of this, which I don't go for as a regular thing, is making the alternative unpleasant for the dog. They're still obeying because it serves THEM - in this case they're just obeying to avoid something unpleasant (which can include the loss of opportunity for the good thing, all the way through the more severe stuff like pain).

So basically you can either use the dog working for the CHANCE of a reward of some kind (from praise to food to a toy to whatever the dog likes) or to AVOID the negative response that they don't want.

But the dog is never going to obey you for any reason that doesn't amount to opportunity for good things (as defined by them) or to avoid something bad/unpleasant (as defined by them). No dog. No, not even a BC.

[denice]

Wully wrote "I still wonder when I should expect a command to be obeyed just because it is a command. There are times when I would just like her to come because she is called, not because I have done something to make myself more exciting".

 

Maybe I will odd person out BUT I ALWAYS EXPECT my command to be obeyed just because I ask. Why are you asking if you dont expect the dog to listen? I am not into bribes or coercing my dog into doing things. I might use treats when they are really young but by the time they are 5 mo old or so they only get a itty bitty dog bone once in a while and that is just because I want to give them one. Not because they did something right.

 

If they do not do as asked they get told then they get in trouble for not trouble for not doing it. As they understand what is I want and what I am asking I expect them to do it without being told in a firmer voice.

 

They are so smart, they know just how many times they can do what they want before you get upset. They know if they can dink around. if you have given then a treat every for doing x they will expect it, they know from across the yard if you have a treat in your hand. I never want them to believe they have an option to do what they please over what I ask. If I ask I am ready to reinforce whatever that request was! If I can not reinforce I do not ask.

Different dogs require and respond differently to voice, tones, corrections ect. Some dogs would never think of having more than a HEY i am talking to You. Others require a more direct approach. I had a boxer that was happy go lucky a great boy but when he was young he got to that adolecent stage where he was testing boundries. I grapped him up on either side of his checks and looked him in the eye and told him he was to listen when I spoke. Never had him ignore me again. I take care of them and expect them to listen and do as I ask. They can say they dont like it but they still have to do it.

Who is training whom? If the dog will not do as its asked without treats or me 'being fun and exciting' I am afraid the dog is training you. How many see a child act up and the parent appeases him with a bribe - if you are good you can ice cream. Is that what positive reinforcement training has come to?? If you come to me i will....If you do the right thing...

That might be fine for a 2-4 mo old pup but I sure do not want a dog that only obeys because of what he can get from me. I want a dog that wants to be with me and listen because we trust and respect each other.

[ourwully]

Sekah - as it turns out, Susan Garett is less than an hour from me so I will definitely check that out.

 

Captain Jack and Denice - thank you for your detailed and somewhat varied responses -now I really have some thinking to do

 

Captain Jack -One thing for sure is that I am giving out too many treats. I will have to randomize the rewards more.

 

Denice - I also want a dog that wants to be with me and listen because we trust and respect each other but I am not 100% sure how to get there. I think I am on the right path as Juno and I have a great relationship. I am also trying to only ask for things I can reinforce but this is really at the heart of my original dilema. What do you do when you want something important done but you are not sure if you can reinforce it if it is not done.

[GentleLake]

Recall aside for a moment, from your original post it sounds like you're feeling in general that Juno isn't responding quickly enough.

Two thoughts come to mind. You might want to consider increasing the value of your food rewards. If she's getting her regular kibble as rewards, perhaps you could switch to something more enticing, like bits of cheese or hot dogs. The kibble simply may not be high value enough for her to really care much about. You may even find that a favorite toy is a more powerful reward. It's a matter of finding out what she finds rewarding.

Are you rewarding for the slow responses? IOW, does she get her reward for "sit", "lie down", etc. even if she does it slowly? If so, then she really has not incentive to execute the cue more quickly. What I'd do is cue her in an upbeat, snappy tone. If she sits (or whatever) quickly, then mark and reward. If it's slow, use a no reward marker like "oops" or "too bad", move off and try again in a moment. The idea is that you're upping the criteria and only clicking and treating for a snappy response. Make sure your click or other reward marker is well timed. Otherwise it looses effectiveness. Same with the no reward marker. If she's hesitating and taking her sweet time, give the no reward marker and move away. She looses. You may find this to be more effective than if you're rewarding for sloppy responses.

[CptJack]

Varying the rewards really adds excitement, too - and randomizing them. It's like the dog goes 'Yeah, if I come I get another piece of cheese.' When the dog is getting a LOT of tiny pieces of cheese, even if they really like cheese, the value is gone.

Sometimes, when I reward I use liver or steak or chicken.

Sometimes I use hot dogs

Sometimes it's string cheese.

Sometimes it's kibble or cheerios.

Sometimes it's a ball.

Sometimes it's a tug.

Sometimes it's really enthusiastic praise.

 

Sometimes, I even mix the kibble and cheerios and hot dogs and steak and liver together in a biggish bag and grab a handful to use, and even I don't know what I'm going to reward the dog with.

 

Sometimes it's a functional reward (like getting to go out the front door).

 

Sometimes, for really well known stuff it's nothing.

REALLY HIGH VALUE stuff is important with new behavior and for building value, but once the dog knows it, well. Just like you keep butts at a slot machine by randomizing the reward and hoping that they'll get the payout this time, random rewards keep dogs hoping for the payout. ('hoping' may not be the right reward, but there are a lot of studies on animal behavior with this and it is the same as the slot machine thing with people).

Edited July 28, 2015 by CptJack

[CptJack]

Oh and I agree with Gentle Lake re: Rewarding snappy remarkers and no reward makers for slower ones, and also want to agree and emphasize that timing is important.

If you say 'sit' and the dog doesn't sit, give it a beat, then no reward marker and move on. If you NRM while the dog is in the process of sitting or after it's already sat, well, you've just told your dog you don't want a sit - not that you don't want a laggy sit.

[ourwully]

Gentle Lake - you are right, my original concern was primarily the speed of response. I have never heard of the slow response markers but they sound like they will work with good timing

Captain Jack - thanks for the additional comments re variety, randomness, and high value -gives me lots to work with

[GentleLake]

Just don't use a no reward marker for a recall! That's the one exception to that.

 

Any recall, even if slow, deserves some reward, even if it's just praise. Maybe saving the good treats for a quick recall would help them happen more often, but never do anything to dampen a dog's enthusiasm when she comes to you.

[Chanse]

For recalls I like Donna Hills technique (just search "Donna Hill Recall" on youtube, she has 3 parts). Also, like others were saying, randomizing the reward is good. Also, if you can, when you are sure that Juno is going to respond to a recall then start running away right after the recall command. Juno should chase you down and if you do this often enough then this should definitely speed up her response. Chasing a running person is highly rewarding. Then if you have a toy hidden on you, you can reward Juno with that once she arrives (I usually use a favorite tug toy for this), or if Juno likes food more then use that.

 

As for the attention and training relationship in general, I have recently found Denise Fenzi's blog (http://denisefenzi.com/) very helpful. Do a search for "engagement." Read those articles and watch the videos. They have helped me significantly improve on Archer's attention and focus.

[denice]

I work with dogs every day. I am a vet tech, groom, help people with training and obedience work, raised pups that went on to be service dogs and guide dogs ect... For the past 15 years I have had working border collies. It is a journey for sure. We are all a work in progress - them and me. I do not like to be a drill seargent and rarely do I need to be. I have bought older border collies, pups, older pup and raised pups. I really do not do things much differently. All the work inside the pasture is a direct reflection of your relationship outside the pasture.

 

Working breeds were developed for a specific type of work and along with that most have a certain personality and traits that make them Want to be with people and work with people. A herding dog that will not listen to be directed to sheep it can not see is of little value in many situations.

My dogs all live inside with me. We work together daily and I start day ONE fostering the type of relationship I want. I want a dog who Tries, Who Wants to be with Me, Who Listens, and who THINKS.

Do I reward my pups YES. Sometimes with a treat - but it is 1/2 of tiny dry dog bone. Nothing special really, no variety but they know what they did Does or Does Not please me by my reaction. I do not get all slobbery or high pitched or gush over them much once they get 4 month. I always reward them for Trying and Thinking even when it was not quite right. I reward a good attitude. I help them figure out what I want. So many people I see over reward to the point the dog stops thinking. If it is upside down and wiggling or barking ect odds are it has stopped thinking. I do not believe the dog is processing much at that point. IF my dog is doing what I want he gets a 'That a boy' good job, way to go and we move on. He stays engaged and thoughtful.

They are taught by 4/5 mo old to not pull on a lead, get in a car and ride quietly lose in the back seat, walk nicely in public, have manners around people and dogs, lay quietly in a new situation next to me, come every time when called, walk into a kennel and crate...Their reward for appropriate behavior is to be able to be with me. I do not carry treats, They get affirmation that the behavior is right or correction when it is not. Pretty simple. I trust them to use their minds to figure it out. My expections are high and they rise to them.

 

I find most people do not have high enough expections of their dog and accept to little and do not give them feedback they can use. They avoid situations instead of showing the dog what is required of them. They use halti leads instead of teaching a dog not to pull. They use treats to get them to stand still or come or lie quietly instead of teaching them this is just how dogs act and be matter of fact about it.

When you are brushed this is what I want - when you get your nails trimmed this is how I need you to act, when we greet new people this is what you do. It isn't 'he doesn't like that' and give him a pass for bad behavior. I can trim all 7 of my dogs toe nails in under 10 min. Do they all like it NO. I have one that will go around the side of the house if he sees a bush or clippers. That is fine, he is letting me know he would rather not be brushed. Ok but that doesn't mean he doesn't have to stand nice when it is his turn to be brushed.

 

I just brought a friends dog to my house that my gang did not know. Tuff is staying for a few days. My 7 bcs - 2 are 7 mo, 1 is 2.5,2 are 4, a 5 a 12 and a 15.5 are all inside lose with this new young dog. Everyone had some time outside to meet and greet in shifts. Four adults are laying around my chair, 2 pups are playing in the living room quietly, the other older dogs are snoozing in a corner of the two rooms and the new dog is exploring and greeting my dogs and occasionally playing with the younger ones. I have corrected someone a few times but for having 8 border collies in less than 800 sq ft and one being a new dog I expect to need to set them straight a time or two.

 

It is all in what you expect from them and how you want your relationship to be. Doesn't bother me if want to give your dog 100 treats a day. What does bother me is if you expect me to groom him or trim his nails or take care of him in a vet clinic when he does not have basic manners because you have avoided issues or treated your way around them instead of teaching him how to behave.

His reward for doing what is asked of him should be that he pleases you, not a toy or treat. IF they can figure out names of people and objects, phases maybe even sentences do you really think it is the food treat that is more rewarding to him than your affirmation? At some point your toy will be lost and you will run out of treats. I never run out of a that a girl, you did good and a pat on the head.

[waffles]

Denice, most of us who train with treats phase them out. I certainly do not carry treats on me to get my 7 year old dog to walk nicely on leash or recall. Treats are phased out once the dog understands what you want, and in my opinion that's how it should be. No one wants to have a treat bag on their hip for 15 years.

 

Otherwise, I agree with your post that most people expect very little from their dogs and they are mostly happy with that...until they aren't.

[CptJack]

Denice, most of us who train with treats phase them out. I certainly do not carry treats on me to get my 7 year old dog to walk nicely on leash or recall. Treats are phased out once the dog understands what you want, and in my opinion that's how it should be. No one wants to have a treat bag on their hip for 15 years.

 

Otherwise, I agree with your post that most people expect very little from their dogs and they are mostly happy with that...until they aren't.

 

Yeah. Please note that I talked about 'sometimes, when it's something the dog knows well, the reward is nothing' in my post. The fact of the matter is, it's very OFTEN nothing at some point and only rarely some treat or another I have on hand. Unless you count the continual rewarding for things I do by asking my dog for casual commands before I throw a ball or disc.

 

Which, honestly, does continue to build reward history for the dog, but is really mostly about me just making them want to earn their fun.

 

As for expectations, well. I'm not the one to talk to in this. I've had to lower mine, lately in a few areas - on the advice of some very good people here, and some pretty good trainers in real life. So it's not like my dogs are getting a billion free cookies for existing and are untrained hooligans

[alligande]

Denice, most of us who train with treats phase them out. I certainly do not carry treats on me to get my 7 year old dog to walk nicely on leash or recall. Treats are phased out once the dog understands what you want, and in my opinion that's how it should be. No one wants to have a treat bag on their hip for 15 years.

Otherwise, I agree with your post that most people expect very little from their dogs and they are mostly happy with that...until they aren't.

I am like Waffles, with the exceptions of training with treats I agree with your post, people just don't expect enough of their dogs, we are lucky enough to be able to take our dog out with us a lot, and even in a country where it is not unique to see a dog dining out people comment on how good he is, while I would not accept anything else. I am not though sitting there with cookies in my pocket rewarding him for being a good boy, I require him to be a good boy, just like I know how to behave politely in a restaurant. I did use cookies to teach him what the skills he needed.

[ourwully]

Denise - You have both inspired me and depressed me(just kidding). As I said earlier, Juno is nearly two and from what you have written all your dogs were better behaved at 6 months than Juno is today. There is no doubt in my mind that I have been expecting far too little! I am going use inexperience as an excuse but I am not going to take all the blame. I brought Juno to a highly recommended dog school when she was 3 months old for puppy classes and then again at 6 months as a follow up. During all this time, Juno was like a jumping jack at times. I did everything I was told and did more homework than was required. During class Juno was pretty good but at the end of the two sessions (winter and spring) Juno was still not walking properly or settled down. The head instructor suggested I get a special leader collar for walking. I decided to stay with the normal leash because I really felt that Juno should be able to walk without a special leash. After the second session, I decided Juno was just too immature to continue the lessons so I started doing the training myself.

Now today I could not be happier with Juno as a companion and pet, and I am even her pretty happy with her behaviour. All this said and done, however, I realize that I still have a long way to go. I am going to raise my expectations and continue to follow many of the suggestions given on this forum.

 

Thank you all

Bill

[simba]

I used to train with cookies at home for new behaviour and then go without most of the time. I noticed that the dogs were faster to respond to a comment on a walk which made sense, than a trick at home with cookies. So point in favour of relationship-based training.

 

Then, though, I started walking a very reactive dog. Bringing cookies everywhere and shoveling them into her whenever anything 'scary' happened made the difference between a lunging screaming snarling dog who would redirect her aggression at the other dog walked with her, and a dog who trots beside me looking up at me for the next treat. This happened over the course of a day or two- she didn't get perfect in that course of time, but she was able to just walk and maybe bark or hide rather than being uncontrollable. Between that and recall training I use a lot more treats now.

 

So points for both sides.

 

Ourwully- long line? When she doesn't respond she gets pulled in, when she does respond she gets released to go to the interesting thing again?

[Chanse]

Denise - You have both inspired me and depressed me(just kidding). As I said earlier, Juno is nearly two and from what you have written all your dogs were better behaved at 6 months than Juno is today. There is no doubt in my mind that I have been expecting far too little! I am going use inexperience as an excuse but I am not going to take all the blame. I brought Juno to a highly recommended dog school when she was 3 months old for puppy classes and then again at 6 months as a follow up. During all this time, Juno was like a jumping jack at times. I did everything I was told and did more homework than was required. During class Juno was pretty good but at the end of the two sessions (winter and spring) Juno was still not walking properly or settled down. The head instructor suggested I get a special leader collar for walking. I decided to stay with the normal leash because I really felt that Juno should be able to walk without a special leash. After the second session, I decided Juno was just too immature to continue the lessons so I started doing the training myself.

Now today I could not be happier with Juno as a companion and pet, and I am even her pretty happy with her behaviour. All this said and done, however, I realize that I still have a long way to go. I am going to raise my expectations and continue to follow many of the suggestions given on this forum.

 

Thank you all

Bill

 

I want to +1 that comment because I have similar feeling about Archer. I am finding that dog training isn't something that you can just jump into, it definitely something that a bit of time to learn. Maintaining a strict set of rules I think is more challenging then I thought, which I think hurts Archers walking on leash skills. I wish I knew what I know now when I got Archer as a puppy.

 

I did get a book called "101 dog tricks". I am not going to say it is a good book, but when I feel like Archer might be getting bored we just drop whatever I want to work on and just choose something out of the book. Yesterday I just taught him on to turn off the light and it was the most fun Archer had training in a little while.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

The Scots believe it takes ten years to become an open sheepdog handler. Handler=Trainer. I've found this generally true although some NEVER learn and a few have shorter learning curves - most with extensive livestock experience or horsemen/women).

 

When I mentioned the horseman's advantage, Vicki Hearne who'd trained dogs and horses laughed, "It's because you can't be stupid with a horse. A horse can kill you."

 

What with our odd cultural belief's about dogs (viz: "they all want a treat", "they are fur babies", "they give unconditional love", "'all 'non-positive' methods are cruel" etc) it speaks well of our dogs' desperate need to be trained that they get (somewhat) trained despite ourselves.

 

Donald McCaig