Understanding Molly- growling at Vet

[Bigbluefrog3]

My Border collie is 3/4 Collie and 1/4 Retriever. She is 6 months old and is a wonderful dog.

 

She is super sweet at home and well trained. We have socialized her with other dogs along with 2 puppy training classes.

As a young Pup we tried to expose her to many different people and she has responded with happy attitude.

 

Lately we have noticed a new behavior emerging, growling at the Vet and assistant. I tried to tell the office she is friendly and she tends to growl until you get closer than she will sit at your feet and let you pet her. I don't get this odd behavior, she lunges when we walk past people barking madly. Then if I go toward the person she will just love them to death but her signals are sending a message I will bite you instead of love you.

 

She tends to be aggressive with food around other dogs too. At a play date she wouldn't allow the other dog to drink water.

 

She also tends to be a bit bossy with other dogs more submissive than her.

 

 

What would you do for the play date and water issue? I usually grab her leash or collar and hold her back and allow the water dish to be shared.

 

She is not possessive with us, I will play with her food or toys and randomly take it away and gently tug on her ears or tail to get her used to being touched when eating or playing. I have a grand-baby on the way and want her to be ready for little ones.

 

btw it is our 2nd BC mix, the first dog was awesome lived 17 years and was an amazing dog. Our new pup Molly is just as amazing- training her to alert to low and high blood sugars and she has been alerting quite successfully...she is my dd hero.

 

[MaryP]

The flipping out on the leash is frustration. I have a dog like this. If he is off-leash, he is fine (with dogs; he's situationally fear-aggressive with people). The growling at the vet could be fear aggression, but the fact that he changes his attitude once he's at the person's feet, leads me to believe that this is also just frustration. My border collie with "growl" at people, but it's not really growling (as in aggression), its more like a displacement behavior. He "growls" at me daily. The growling at other dogs over food and water is resource guarding. We have a rule at my house. If you guard a resource, you loose the resource. With that said, some resources are of such high value that I wouldn't expect my dog to be willing to share. I certainly wouldn't expect my food-crazy dog to be OK with another dog coming up to investigate the raw meaty bone he is chewing on, or trying to share his dinner with him. But, things like toys, treats, water, people, couches, etc., are not to be guarded.

[Shetlander]

Very much agree with Mary. This especially bears repeating:

We have a rule at my house. If you guard a resource, you loose the resource.

 

That is a huge rule at my house as well. Do some searches here and on the web on resoruce guarding. This is a behavior you really want to nip in the bud. A lot of what you describe sounds like obnoxious, smart, frustrated, controlling puppy behavior that can be effectively dealt with through training and management. She sounds like a great addition to your family. She just needs to learn better manners in the world outside her little pack. Good luck!

[Cyberdog]

I third that rule at my house!

 

Weird growling behavior:

 

I trained my BC to bark and/or growl on cue. Ever since that training s

he will start making growly noises when excited and getting belly rubs. I reinforced any noises she made...and now she just makes them when its belly rub/petting time. Her happy growly sounds are different than upset growly sounds to me, but hard for guests to discrimante so Ive had to explain it a few times. The happy sounds are more like grunts or 'burps' than snarling. Its hard to explain.

[Jeri Jessee]

Similar but different behavior from my 14 month old, Maggie. Will sit and let strangers pet her but then will air snap when they move away from her....not everyone just certain people that I think she deems scary...like our pool man who was petting her a bit rough... Will growl and bark if startled such as someone at a drive thru window or coming around from behind a customer service desk, etc. I have been taking her places since she was a pup, she's gone thru 3 obedience classes and is now training on sheep....so she has been properly socialized in my opinion...I'm not sure what to think.

 

She never does this around what I would call "dog people"...you know, the type who actually know how to approach a strange dog (or better yet ignore her)....she's happy and friendly...its the random stranger at a store...so I have to be super careful out in public.

 

I do feel this is fear and not aggression and hope it is a phase...but welcome suggestions.

[ChantalB]

Carry a bag of treats with you on all outings And a helper whenever possible. Go for random walks and try to fin different looking people, some with hats, big coats piercings, sweet lookin people, people with briefcases, umbrellAs, rough looking people, shy reserved folks. And crazy outgoing ones, every different type you can imagine. Now try to recruit them to help socialize your puppy /dog, a lot of people are more than willing (excited even) if you ask. Give them the treat and tell them to turn away from dog. Let dog investigate, have them give the treat when puppy is clearly interested. Some people your dog won't have problems with, they can give the treat and loving in a matter of seconds... Some will have to really ignore the puppy and Maybe put treat a few feet away, but her confidence will grow with work.

 

As for holdin back on collar, that's a no no a it engages the opposition reflex leaving them wanting it even more. Resources guarding is a time out worthy behavior but it isn't fair to the dog if you've never taught them not to resource guard. To them it's an instictual behaviour, so first you have to teach them not to do it before you tell them no. Try the switching food technique (something better for what your eating) never just take the food away that's dominant unfair behavior on a persons part that only teaches the dog to resource guard as you only take away. Same with sharing water, those behavior need to be taught. Two people, two dogs one water bowl, lots of treats. Take turns walking to bowl with one dog while other puppy sits and Gets treats for simply sharing, after 20 seconds switch it up. Do this with lots of different dogs, letting your own know that sharing=treats=good times. Eventually slowly extinguish the the amount of treats, time intervals, and the space between dogs when they are both comfy and letting you know it's time to kick the training up a notch.

 

Growling at vet? It's up to you to make vet visits fun. What dog like going some place where they get shots, thermometers up their butts, and are surrounded by other scared, sick dogs? They associate the vets with the visits. Make it fun an upbeat, consider going to the vets office to just say hello during their downtime if they'll let know and supply everyone who works there lots of treats to give your puppy. Then leave. No treatment and only treats/love, sounds like a good deal to me!

[Bigbluefrog3]

Resource guarding is unfamiliar to me, but it makes sense. I have been training her the "leave it" command. So when I accidentally dropped a bottle of ibuprofen, the leave it command worked great and the pup is safe.

 

So how to teach not to guard resources? I understand time outs, but the initial training is with another puppy? Molly was just spayed and is not happy with the funny cone collar. Can I do this training without another dog? I am trying to keep her calm for a few days...and it is tough because the high energy.

 

The vet situation was odd, and the assistant and vet were afraid. I had to hold my dog for the initial part of the procedure. I think she sensed their fear which didn't help. Before the vet visit we hike a few miles near a dog friendly park. After the dog was fixed they had no issues with putting a collar on her or working with her. I just needed to reassure the BC is friendly. Thinking a new vet?

 

Googling: resource guarding. I wonder if Any u-tube videos on how to work on resource guarding? She is that way with treats at puppy class too.

 

I am surprised this was not addressed at the puppy classes.

 

BTW Molly growled at a stranger on our walk and the stranger got down to Molly's level and proceeded to lick his face and give the full body wiggle then snuggled on his feet....you would think she was "his" dog.

[mum24dog]

She is not possessive with us, I will play with her food or toys and randomly take it away and gently tug on her ears or tail to get her used to being touched when eating or playing. I have a grand-baby on the way and want her to be ready for little ones.

 

Unfortunately by taking her food away you are teaching her to guard it as ChantalB said. Leave her alone - you wouldn't like to have your plate taken away before you've finished, I'm sure.

 

Instead of taking it away, drop even better food in her bowl from time to time so she gets to associate your approach with good things, not losing something of value.

 

The same applies to toys or anything else she may guard. Offer her something better. That way when you really need to remove something she is likely to let you take it.

 

And never, ever think of letting a small child pull a dog's ears or tail, or interfere with it in any way, however good you may think the dog may be. I don't want to appear over dramatic but a small child was killed by a reportedly docile family dog recently over something the child may have been allowed to do many times without incident.

[Bigbluefrog3]

Unfortunately by taking her food away you are teaching her to guard it as ChantalB said. Leave her alone - you wouldn't like to have your plate taken away before you've finished, I'm sure.

 

Instead of taking it away, drop even better food in her bowl from time to time so she gets to associate your approach with good things, not losing something of value.

 

The same applies to toys or anything else she may guard. Offer her something better. That way when you really need to remove something she is likely to let you take it.

 

And never, ever think of letting a small child pull a dog's ears or tail, or interfere with it in any way, however good you may think the dog may be. I don't want to appear over dramatic but a small child was killed by a reportedly docile family dog recently over something the child may have been allowed to do many times without incident.

 

I think you misunderstood. Raised three small children with my first border collie and of course didn't allow tugging, but I want a dog that is oaky with me touching her ears and feet. I am not tugging hard..lol I have seen puppies do more with one another.

 

Sometimes it is necessary to take food away- these are pets not humans. Ever see a dog swipe a chicken bone out of the trash? I know you love your pets and so do I but in proper perspective.

 

I am not teaching resource guarding, I will play with her food while she eats. I will take a bone away and check it then give it back . This is taught in all 3 puppy training classes at 3 different locations...must be doing something right.

 

Clarify - my dog does not resource guard with us, not with food, not with toys, not with anything... in fact she loves to bring toys and socks and other nifty items like shoes to us.

 

The only time she growled at a new dog in our yard, 1 st time at our house and it was over water dish. She is fine with dogs she knows. Seems to not be an issue, neighbor 's dog and her played and shared quite nicely.

 

Vet gave her a treat at the last visit and she waggled her tail.

 

We are doing great! Enjoyed reading your posts.

 

ps rereading my first post. I thought I was being clear but I can see how some may skip parts and assume the worst.

[Bigbluefrog3]

The flipping out on the leash is frustration. I have a dog like this. If he is off-leash, he is fine (with dogs; he's situationally fear-aggressive with people). The growling at the vet could be fear aggression, but the fact that he changes his attitude once he's at the person's feet, leads me to believe that this is also just frustration. My border collie with "growl" at people, but it's not really growling (as in aggression), its more like a displacement behavior. He "growls" at me daily. The growling at other dogs over food and water is resource guarding. We have a rule at my house. If you guard a resource, you loose the resource. With that said, some resources are of such high value that I wouldn't expect my dog to be willing to share. I certainly wouldn't expect my food-crazy dog to be OK with another dog coming up to investigate the raw meaty bone he is chewing on, or trying to share his dinner with him. But, things like toys, treats, water, people, couches, etc., are not to be guarded.

 

 

agree and very good insight - thanks

[ChantalB]

The point is not, not ever take food away, but training for the moment you actually have to.

 

Let's say you train this by taking the food from the dog and then giving it back, sure the dog may eventually be comfortable about it but what is he getting in return? Nothing. I kinda feel like that is dominating the dog a little (my opinion). If you train this by gradually taking away his food what happens when its something better (chicken bone) he may not want to give it up and may snap, growl or not give up the potentially harmful thing. He gets nothing for giving his food away, except the chance to eat what he already had?? I dont see how this progresses further.

 

Now if you train it by trading his kibble for let's say anything better, (piece of steak, fav treats) take kibble--give treat--get kibble back, that sounds like a much better bargain and one a dog might be more apt to follow trough on. He'll be happy to give up whatever he's eating (as long as you progress to other giving up other better stuff aside from kibble) instead of begrudging you. Because who knows what yummier things you may have waiting.

[olivehill]

It doesn't have to make sense to you it has to make sense to the dog. You will never see an alpha dog in a pack take something -- food, a sleeping spot, etc -- and then give something better in return. The alpha dog takes what the alpha dog wants, because it's the alpha dog. I am the alpha dog. If I want the food, I get the food. If I want the ball, I get the ball. If I want the sofa, I get the sofa. Period. This is not a democracy, these are not entitled teenagers. Dogs are comforted by having a strong leader and a stable social structure. We're the only ones discomforted by the idea of domination, and only because we've been raised in a culture that routinely questions it.

 

As humans we view domination as something forceful and sinister, but in the animal kingdom dominant-submissive relationships make up the very fabric of their societies. Dogs -- and other animals -- happily and willingly dominate and submit to one another every day. It's as simple as being a strong leader. You lead, they will readily follow. Interestingly, behind the facade of "freedom and liberty" most humans are not really all that different. Unlike dogs they just need to be able to pretend they're not submitting -- and/or are "trading up" for their submission -- in order to be happy about it.

[beachdogz]

We have a rule at my house. If you guard a resource, you loose the resource. With that said, some resources are of such high value that I wouldn't expect my dog to be willing to share. I certainly wouldn't expect my food-crazy dog to be OK with another dog coming up to investigate the raw meaty bone he is chewing on, or trying to share his dinner with him. But, things like toys, treats, water, people, couches, etc., are not to be guarded.

 

ok...so what if the resource he is guarding is a person? what do you do for that?

[ChantalB]

Olivehill- I guess I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. I am not the alpha. I don't buy into dominancein human-dog sense. I am not a dog. My dog knows I am not a dog. I do notwant a dog-dog relationship with my BC. Do you see te type of behaviours dogs do to each other? I want a partnership built on trust and understanding, clear and concise rules that the dog has been taught to follow through positive methods.

 

Try being a dominant alpha to a naturally dominant dog. Chances are you will keep getting challenged for the duration ofyour dogs life. If you successfully "alpha-ed" your dog than that's your "success".

 

But hey my dog is only a rising agility star, looks to me for guidance, has great life skills, and loves his life.. Not to to mention hasn't challenged me since puppyhood, without any alpha bs. (did I mention hes the dominant dog in every dog group he's played with? Funny how he defers to me without having to "take what I want when I want.. For no reason".

[ChantalB]

ok...so what if the resource he is guarding is a person? what do you do for that?

 

 

Is this from another person or a dog?

[waffles]

Olivehill, what happens when a dog growls at you when you try to take the ball/food/whatever from him? You just dominate him by barking/snapping/holding him down like another dog would do? We are humans not dogs. My dog is my partner. Dogs don't see each other in that way and for humans to do what dogs do to each other just does not make sense. Dogs don't feed each other, take each other for walks, etc. They chew on each others faces and jump on each other. I wouldn't allow my dog to do that to me and I wouldn't do that to my dog. Teaching your dog that it is okay to give something up is not a bad thing. I don't plan on ever being unfair or confusing to my dog by just randomly grabbing things from him and then oh ya, sometimes giving them back for no apparent reason. I can ask my dog to drop something because I taught that (in a positive clear way), another dog would just go over and grab-if met with resistance he would then growl, snap, push, bark, hold the dog down, until he got the ball.

[OurBoys]

ok...so what if the resource he is guarding is a person? what do you do for that?

My Josie sometimes “resource guards” me. (FWIW, I refer to it as human possessiveness.) For Josie, it’s always with another dog; never a person. It might not work for others but what works for us is when she growls and snaps at another dog for coming up to me, I tell her “Aht! Mine!” and I step in front of her. She backs off and accepts the dog getting petted from me. I know it might sound weird but teaching my dogs what “Mine” means has come in handy in other areas too.

[beachdogz]

Is this from another person or a dog?

 

another person

[olivehill]

Olivehill- I guess I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. I am not the alpha. I don't buy into dominancein human-dog sense. I am not a dog. My dog knows I am not a dog. I do notwant a dog-dog relationship with my BC. Do you see te type of behaviours dogs do to each other? I want a partnership built on trust and understanding, clear and concise rules that the dog has been taught to follow through positive methods.

 

Ahhh, but I'm not promoting a dog-dog relationship. I'm saying, there's nothing wrong with communicating with your dog in his native language. As for the "through positive methods", again that's seeing dominance through human eyes only. It's not all whips and chains. It's as simple as being a strong leader who they want to follow. For a dog, having a leader they can trust and respect, one who sets boundaries and is consistent in keeping them, is one of the most positive things there is.

 

Try being a dominant alpha to a naturally dominant dog. Chances are you will keep getting challenged for the duration ofyour dogs life. If you successfully "alpha-ed" your dog than that's your "success".

 

I have and no, they don't -- at least I've never had an issue as such or known anyone that has. I prefer dominant dogs, always have. I'm curious where you have gotten your information since you refuse to have a dominant relationship with your dog? Or are you just presuming? Because I have worked with a lot of dominant dogs, I've also seen a lot of dominant dogs in homes with naturally submissive people and that's usually when there's a disaster, because the dog has no clear leader and then tries to assume that position.

 

Olivehill, what happens when a dog growls at you when you try to take the ball/food/whatever from him? You just dominate him by barking/snapping/holding him down like another dog would do?

 

As little as possible, as much as it takes.

 

We are humans not dogs. My dog is my partner. Dogs don't see each other in that way and for humans to do what dogs do to each other just does not make sense.

 

Of course, we're not. Like I said, I'm not proposing you be a dog. I'm simply proposing you communicate with your dog in the language he understands. And yes, of course, there are sometimes adjustments we have to make in order to make that language work in a human-dog relationship, but the closer it can be approximated the less a dog has to learn in order to comply.

 

Dogs don't feed each other, take each other for walks, etc. They chew on each others faces and jump on each other. I wouldn't allow my dog to do that to me and I wouldn't do that to my dog.

 

Actually, they do. Left to their own devices they would find food as a pack, take walk abouts as a pack, etc. and there would be a dog who is "in charge". That dog would make the decisions about where they walk about, where they scavenge, etc.

 

As for the behavior to one another, they only do those things to each other 1) in play or 2) if challenging one another. In the case of play, you will not see a submissive dog persist in a game with an alpha dog unless that alpha dog invites it. The alpha dog tells them to knock it off and they do, or they get reprimanded. The same way as if they do those things to us and we don't like it, they get reprimanded. Once the relationship is founded dogs rarely decide to challenge the hierarchy -- usually only if another is sick, injured or aged and doesn't seem like a fit leader anymore.

 

Teaching your dog that it is okay to give something up is not a bad thing. I don't plan on ever being unfair or confusing to my dog by just randomly grabbing things from him and then oh ya, sometimes giving them back for no apparent reason. I can ask my dog to drop something because I taught that (in a positive clear way), another dog would just go over and grab-if met with resistance he would then growl, snap, push, bark, hold the dog down, until he got the ball.

 

I agree. Teaching them to give things up is great! I'm certainly not saying otherwise. Like I said, all I'm saying is it's okay to speak to the dog in the language they understand.

 

Chances are, you're dominate to your dog without really giving it thought. Someone has to be the boss, it's either the dog or the human. If your dog looks to you as his leader, obeys your commands, wants to please and be with you, there's a reason for that... you're the boss.

[ChantalB]

I've seen a lot of the dominance.pack leader stuff backfire through dogs I've dog walked and worked with in the past couple years. I interviewed candidates before taking them in a customers, got their dogs history. As well as their own and what methods they used, how it was working for them.

 

I also come from an area with a lot of old school hunters (that use water dogs/bird dogs) thankfully things are changing but there were a lot of "interesting" dog-human relationships at play. Nit saying some weren't successful but I've known/ heard of a lot of failed stories and the dog ended up being "no good for nothing" "nasty" and shot. I'd always fish out all the details from people when I heard those stories.

 

Again just my opinion trough how I train and what I've witnessed.

[Bigbluefrog3]

My Josie sometimes “resource guards” me. (FWIW, I refer to it as human possessiveness.) For Josie, it’s always with another dog; never a person. It might not work for others but what works for us is when she growls and snaps at another dog for coming up to me, I tell her “Aht! Mine!” and I step in front of her. She backs off and accepts the dog getting petted from me. I know it might sound weird but teaching my dogs what “Mine” means has come in handy in other areas too.

 

My friend does the same thing with her dog too. I believe she got it out of a book from the Dog whisper, understanding the pack behavior and she has been very successful with her training.

 

 

Just like raising children we are are going to see different training styles.

 

With the chicken bone I think its important to get it away fast, not search for a special treat, because then she thinks stealing trash is good and then she gets a better treat.

 

Oh thanks to whoever said give a better treat when resource guarding with water dish, I tried that with my cats. They got string cheese and instead of Molly going after the cat's treat I gave her a better treat. Told her to leave the cats, when she made eye contact - she got her treat.

 

So the better treat has good value, and I thank you for the tip

[Bigbluefrog3]

The point is not, not ever take food away, but training for the moment you actually have to.

 

Let's say you train this by taking the food from the dog and then giving it back, sure the dog may eventually be comfortable about it but what is he getting in return? Nothing. I kinda feel like that is dominating the dog a little (my opinion). If you train this by gradually taking away his food what happens when its something better (chicken bone) he may not want to give it up and may snap, growl or not give up the potentially harmful thing. He gets nothing for giving his food away, except the chance to eat what he already had?? I dont see how this progresses further.

 

Now if you train it by trading his kibble for let's say anything better, (piece of steak, fav treats) take kibble--give treat--get kibble back, that sounds like a much better bargain and one a dog might be more apt to follow trough on. He'll be happy to give up whatever he's eating (as long as you progress to other giving up other better stuff aside from kibble) instead of begrudging you. Because who knows what yummier things you may have waiting.

 

 

I do understand what your saying , so if you take your dog's food you swap for a better and then give it back.

 

What I do is ask Molly to sit, then when she is sitting I place her food down, then she looks at me and I give her an okay and she then eats, or she leaves it. I don't take her food away, just toys or bones- sometimes I get that you have a bone to chew and get stuck in one thought.

 

btw MOlly is Amazing, last night she alerted me to my young daughter's low blood sugar of 40 and when that happens she gets jackpot of treats.

 

She such a blessing to us, of course we love her. Again thanks for insight on your training tips, I know we may not all agree, but hearing how one BC owner trains can give us options if our method is not working...please remember that - be kind.

[ChantalB]

Yup I see the point of the exercise to be that once trained whenever you ask the dog to "leave it" he does so promptly because he's been trained that sometimes drop iteans better things await! So when the dog has a garbage chicken bone treat, he shouldn't think twice about dropping it because, man, who knows what may come next.

 

The garbage diving is a separate thing that will have to be trained. IMO, in the event that the dog did dumpster dive, an you successfully got him to drop the chicken bone I would praise the bone dropping and reward it and ignore the garbage picking for that moment in time. That way they aren't being scolded for dropping something yummy (or a reward/giant praise withheld, scolding by omission). Redirect your dog after from the garbage, and maybe 5 minutes later proceed to do some garbage "no touch" training, to reinforce that not touching the yummy garbage bag is awesome.

[ChantalB]

And wow! What a good service dog ( even if she isn't theoretically) amazing skill!

[OurBoys]

My friend does the same thing with her dog too. I believe she got it out of a book from the Dog whisper, understanding the pack behavior and she has been very successful with her training.

That's a Dog Whisperer technique? Shoot, and all this time I thought we were original.