Gideon's girl Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Likewise with someone who trains/trials for AKC and AHBA (unless those are the venues you aspire to). J. Uh, yeah, NO!! I was thinking about how to eval a trainer, so thank you for answering that before I asked. As far as AKC, we(my daughter and I) play around at agility for fun, but we will never compete because the venues around here that have agility are all AKC and I won't be giving them a dime, not ILP, not PAL, not anything. So I definitely don't aspire to "herd" sheep that my 13 year old JRT could handle. There are a number of local places where I can go to do that, but I wasn't even considering them to be anything at all. As green as my dogs and myself are, I know we are already well past just following tame sheep around a pen. Note that I said "just," I'm sure that I have more to learn there too, but I need to actually learn something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Hi Maxi Thanks for reminding me I have a whole new set of diseases to learn about. I do have an isolation area on my property. Should a foot bath be bleach and water, iodine and water, chlorhexadine and water, or am I looking for a foot bath product? My goats do eat horse feed, so I know I'll have to get sheep feed for the sheep, feeding and minerals will only be in their night pens, so I shouldn't have problems keeping that separate and we don't have issues with the minerals in the soil, so much as the lack of minerals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Tally is by far above and beyond...just saying. Do they ever do clinics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 1) I would definitely audit the Michael Gallagher clinic. Auditing fees are usually reasonable, and you can learn a lot. People I know who have taken his clinics say he's an outstanding clinician. 2) I've been told (as I look for land myself) that I should shoot for a flock of ~ 25 or 30 ewes (at a minimum - enough so that they didn't get sour too quickly - though the speed at which they sour depends on how you and more important your dog(s) treat them). One place we're looking at right now has just under 15 acres total (11 in pasture), which in the mid-Atlantic is ample for a flock of this size. I'm probably going to go with wool sheep, because my mentor has a flock of Border Cheviot cross sheep that has been culled ruthlessly for decades for attributes I value (good mothers, easy lambers, parasite resistant, good feet, stand up to being worked by dogs). But I'm lucky: there are shearers locally who will shear a small flock. I won't be able to sell the wool for enough to recoup the costs, but so be it. "Easy keepers" is important to me. 3) I second what others have said about checking credentials on potential trainers. I wouldn't want to work with a trainer who competes (successfully!) at a level below Open, if I were you. And I wouldn't buy the claim that "I ran my dogs in Nursery at the Finals" as a substitute. There are a lot of different ways to qualify a young dog for Nursery. Caveat emptor... 4) I'm probably going to keep a closed flock, at least initially. I do know people who change out their sheep frequently, but being new to sheep husbandry, I'd rather limit the chances of disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 One place we're looking at right now has just under 15 acres total (11 in pasture), which in the mid-Atlantic is ample for a flock of this size. I had 75 sheep on 16 acres of pasture in eastern PA and could easily have doubled that. We had to mow once or twice a summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I think the key to buying sheep is to trust the source. If you're going to sale barns and the like to get sheep then you are much more likely to bring in problems. If you go to a farmer you trust, then you are going to have less concerns about disease. That's not to say that going to someone you know is a guarantee, but it's a start. As for foot baths, I'd use a commercial product designed for foot baths. I've only ever actually run my sheep through a foot bath once. (I had karakuls at one time and one of the breeders I got some from always ran sheep through a foot bath before they left her place. I found that I did have more problems with her sheep and ended up culling those genetics--nto for foot rot but for a propensity for scald. It was trickier in that case because karakuls are such a rare breed, but I did get to the point in my flock where I had enough sheep to be able to cull based on propensity to being susceptible to scald.) Again, if you can trust your source for sheep, you shouldn't need to worry about foot rot. That's not to say that you shouldn't take preventive measures, only to say that a lot of potential problems can be avoided simply be being careful who you buy from. As for pasture size, even the best pasture can become problematic in times of drought, for example. Right now I have a really low stocking rate and pasture that was routinely improved for hay production. There is plenty of grass there, but a higher stocking rate can introduce more issues with parasites for one thing. Keep us posted on what you find! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 The place I'm looking at sheep from does have a reputation for culling ruthlessly, so I'm hoping that actually means they do instead of they talk about it. Down here they say you can have 3-6 sheep per acre, but I have 3 ponies(by size, not breed), and the 4 goats. I do rotate pastures, which is supposed to have me at the higher end for stocking rate, and I have 7 acres of pasture and about 3 acres of brush that will be turned over to the sheep too, I hope. I would like to keep my stocking rate relatively low, because we are on sandy soil and that means the pasture is easily damaged. I'm thinking about getting a small number of Katahdins for training, ease of handling for us greenies, and then as my dogs and I gain experience, switch to the GCNs possibly, because they get less dogged over time. Please tell me I'm a dope, if you see holes in my ignorant logic. The sheep I'm looking at aren't pure Katahdin, they also have GCN and Wilthorn mixed in, but they are mostly Katahdin. Thanks everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 If they have GCN and Wiltshire horn mixed in then they are mixed with wool sheep, which means they are less likely to shed completely. Just keep that in mind when picking your stock. You probably can tell which ones shed completely and which ones might have been shorn in spots, depending on when it was done. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I had 75 sheep on 16 acres of pasture in eastern PA and could easily have doubled that. We had to mow once or twice a summer. Thank you for that reassurance! When you're counting 75 sheep - is that your adults (ewes, wethers, rams) plus lambs, or just the adults? I know a lot depends on the soil... the soils map says that most of this soil at the place we're considering is what they've designated as prime farmland, mostly loam soils. There is one small corner that's a silty loam, which is the corner where we saw a seep/spring along one fence. Apart from this corner, the majority is soil that the map claims drains well, with a reasonable grade (8-25% slope over at least half of the property, flatter adjacent to the stream). With respect to footrot - I've been told that some breeds are more susceptible to it than others (esp. the black faced/footed sheep), but that a lot of it depends on whether the organism responsible for it lives in your soils. It's one disease I'd surely like to avoid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 With that few animals, your stock can get "sour" very fast. You need to decide if you are keeping stock for the dogs or dogs for the stock. If the sheep are really for the dogs, you might do best buying hair sheep and selling them off a few times a year to keep them fresh. Or maybe you can find someone who breeds sheep that will let you keep some on your property, regularly swapping them out. Just be aware of bringing in diseases if you get them from the sale barn or people who aren't careful about management. Hi Liz Somehow I didn't see this yesterday. I'm thinking of keeping a few well dogged for pup, but other than that I may be putting sheep in the freezer and getting more or if my pastures can take it, I plan on a larger flock. I would prefer a larger flock, I'm just not sure if my property can handle it. I have one horse leaving soon, my boarder bought land, so that will leave me able to handle more soon, maybe even before I get the first ones. I can't imagine ever being able to handle 20-30, but who knows. I may know someone who would keep some sheep for me... How fast should I expect sheep to get sour? Right now all I do with my goats is send the dog to fetch them and crisscross or circle around one of my pastures before penning and feeding. And if I get lambs, they will be about 2 months old when I get them in May. How old should I let them get before working them as long as we go slow? I guess I'm not expecting to be able to use them until sometime in the fall or so. Should I have someone with an experienced dog come and work them first? I have good control over Gideon's movement, and he is not grippy. I'm not sure I would want to put Micah on them before they are grown the way he is now, but then he's the one I really want all the help in the world with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Hmm, hmm, hmm - I see you are already well down the slippery slope... How exciting for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 If they have GCN and Wiltshire horn mixed in then they are mixed with wool sheep, which means they are less likely to shed completely. Just keep that in mind when picking your stock. You probably can tell which ones shed completely and which ones might have been shorn in spots, depending on when it was done. J. Shedding is one of the things they say they cull for, but I plan on visiting in a couple weeks and seeing what kind of winter coat they grow and asking questions, then going back while they are shedding so I can see that they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Hmm, hmm, hmm - I see you are already well down the slippery slope... How exciting for you! Me? Or Alchemist? I wish I was a little further down that slope, but I have to at least give a nod to DH's comfort level. Alchemist sounds like there is a piece of waxed cardoard involved to make the slide go a bit smoother. Whee!! What a fun ride!! Hmm, I think I hear a little jealousy in my mental voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Both of you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Ah, no, I DEFINITELY have to keep DH happy... he claims he's moving to a "condo". He concedes that it may well be a condo on a farm - but that he's not responsible for anything outside of the four walls. (He also concedes that this is a pipe dream on his part). But I'm acknowledging that I'm primarily responsible for mowing of pastures. As someone said to me - a woman on a tractor is just as strong as a man on a tractor. We'd hire someone to install fencing. (And I've had to put together a "business plan" - not that we will make money, just to let him know how much we need to set aside for this venture). We'll probably have to do things in stages just because of fiscal constraints. His company is staging a big layoff tomorrow. If he survives the mass bloodletting, we're thinking of putting in an offer on a place we've found. The house is nice and is in great shape (which suits him). The pastures (or potential pastures) and barn suit me. Fingers crossed... Of course we'll have to talk the sellers down a bit (or a LOT!). (Sorry to hijack your post, Gideon's Girl!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Hijack away!! To me , this is encouragement. We got our place almost 12 years ago and have been doing things in stages. I'm more outdoorsy than my DH. I care for the animals, do all the dirty work, mow the pastures, trim the trees, you name it. I even built the fences and a bridge over our pond. But the next set of fences, I'll have to hire out. They are under powerlines and there are rules for that. I've wanted to do this for for sooooo long, and we are finally at a place in time where we can get sheep. I just don't want to take such a big leap that I scare DH. Good luck on the lay off scares. We have to endure that too often down here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Good luck, Lynn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 It would be helpful for you if you had at least one adult in with your lambs. You can start working lambs quite young--mine get worked along with their mamas, largely because I used to move ewes who have lambed out of the main pasture and into nursery paddocks, and then they just got worked with the flock. The biggest issue with lambs is that they don't act like adults. They act like leaderless panicky babies (in general). One or two good steady adults can make all the difference in the world. If you can't add an adult or two, it would be better to use a trained dog to help dog break them--less risk that way. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 That's what I figured. Momma helps to steady them. I'll certainly ask around and see if I can get adults, but so far, everywhere I have found doesn't have adults for sale. When I started this search, I was hoping I could get pregnant ewes and an unrelated ram. I had no idea how silly that hope was. Ah well, live and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Good luck on the lay off scares. We have to endure that too often down here. Good luck, Lynn! Thanks to you both ... tomorrow should prove interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Thank you for that reassurance! When you're counting 75 sheep - is that your adults (ewes, wethers, rams) plus lambs, or just the adults? 75 ewes was the final tally when I had to sell them off. That was in late fall, so the lambs were already gone, other than those I'd kept for breeding, so they were almost a year old. At the time I was using someone else's rams. Soil type and the quality of grass it supports (and was planted) is obviously important. We were lucky that good quality grass had been planted and that the pasture had been ungrazed for several years before we started using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 That's what I figured. Momma helps to steady them. I'll certainly ask around and see if I can get adults, but so far, everywhere I have found doesn't have adults for sale. When I started this search, I was hoping I could get pregnant ewes and an unrelated ram. I had no idea how silly that hope was. Ah well, live and learn. For myself, I'm hoping to get a mixture of ewes and lambs (as my mentor will often reduce her flock in the spring - she has a new ram and I'm hoping will keep a larger than normal percentage of ewe lambs this spring, meaning she'll be selling a number of breeding-quality ewes). Lambs (though silly) are good for training Spain; with Ross I'd prefer to work ewes, at least for now, moving up to a mixture of ewes and lambs as he progresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I'll certainly ask around and see if I can get adults, but so far, everywhere I have found doesn't have adults for sale. When I started this search, I was hoping I could get pregnant ewes and an unrelated ram. I had no idea how silly that hope was. Ah well, live and learn. I started out with culled ewes . . . culled because they were older and no longer twinning, but otherwise good, healthy well bred sheep. One surprised us (and her former owner) by giving us a lamb, as she wasn't supposed to have been bred. First time she'd ever produced a single -- and she gave us a couple more before her time was up -- but her daughter always twinned after her fist lambing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 How fast should I expect sheep to get sour? Right now all I do with my goats is send the dog to fetch them and crisscross or circle around one of my pastures before penning and feeding. One of my dogs would sour them in a hurry. He has but one pace: warp speed. He doesn't have a good sense for his sheep. And he won't LIE DOWN (though he knows this command perfectly well off stock). He's very, very keen, and the sheep sense this and run like gangbusters. He's not grippy, but the sheep still flee when they see him. After a few minutes' working sheep, they're panting. (His training is now "on hiatus"). The other two have a good sense for sheep, and are "good to their sheep". They do have a "slow gear", and (when things are going well) clean flanks, so sheep aren't bolting in all directions. As long as I do my part, and make sure the dogs aren't riding the sheep's butts, and aren't pushing them too fast, and that their flanks are clean, I have hopes that switching the sheep out periodically will keep them from getting too dog-broke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Gideon is very easy, slow, gentle. Micah is warp speed and if he gets frustrated he gets dirty, but his downs are pretty good, which forestalls the frustration for some reason, I guess time to mentally regroup or something. It's Micah I want to get into training with help from people that know all the tricks of the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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