Recreational Herding: Is It Ethical?

[frisbeegirl]

I have sheep. So there has never been anyone entering a trial or a nursery trial that has not had sheep of their own?

 

I find that hard to believe.

[Smalahundur]

I have sheep. So there has never been anyone entering a trial or a nursery trial that has not had sheep of their own?

 

I find that hard to believe.

What strange conclusions you seem to draw from my post.

Of course there are a lot of people who don´t own sheep that enter trials, why not?

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I know several people who live in urban areas and who don't own sheep. They've entered trials.

[frisbeegirl]

So a dog trained for trials does that fall in the recreational herding category ?

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

If the person does not own sheep and they herd as a canine activity and train with someone and goes to clinics and goes to trials, then since that person does not depend on herding as part of his livelihood then yes, that would be recreational.

 

[Mark Billadeau]

There are those who do not depend upon herding as part of their livelihood but who own sheep, breed dogs, train dogs, and compete at the highest levels. Does this fall under recreational herding?

[Mark Billadeau]

A better question would be about the focus of the handler. Is the handler focused upon how the dog is acting (or what benefits the dog can get from the activity) or upon how the dog should be acting to obtain the desired reaction in the livestock.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

No, that person owns sheep and is breeding dogs. I would hope to all God's graces that the level of involvement would be much higher.

I own a small flock of Cotswold and Coopworth for spinning my own wool that I sell to friends. I don't breed dogs. I don't trial. I have two border collies for light tending. Spinning is a hobby and so I would consider my herding recreational. Or incidental to my hobby - spinning.

[NJSwede]

Nevermind... (Deleted)

[Mark Billadeau]

I'm not saying there are not benefits from herding. I'm saying herding is not the only activity that can provide those benefits; Border Collies do not need to do herding to obtain the benefits from a job that works their brain.

 

 

If herding were the only means to provide the mental exercise (and the benefits that come from this exercise) needed by this breed, then we would have to claim that only those who will herd should own these dogs (for the mental health of the dogs). -- I do not believe this.

 

 

If one is going to herd, please focus upon the job (how the dogs should be acting to obtain the desired reaction from the livestock) as opposed to the benefits for the dog. When this job is not done right other animals can suffer while the dog can still benefit from poorly performing the job (mental exercise).

[Smalahundur]

So a dog trained for trials does that fall in the recreational herding category ?

In my opinion , yes, .

 

I myself seldom trial (I have only one under my belt ), and I regard that activity for me as recreational (which means I regard that ethically slightly different than work).

 

But I don´t breed, and as Mark pointed out a serious breeder of stockdogs might not look upon trials as recreational, because they are means to assess capability and therefor breed worthiness under standardized conditions.

 

Of course there is a lot of grey between the black and white.

 

Also I have a feeling (might be wrong of course) that you think I use the term recreational as negative, or derogatory. This is absolutely not the case.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

@Mark

But doesn't one follow the other? What I mean is - a person goes herding as a canine activity purely for their pet dog's benefit. But, in the learning process, they gain an understanding of the job and change their approach more towards livestock tending as opposed to canine activity.

I can see a progression and an evolution of thinking and approach resulting in a shift in focus, away from dog and towards the dog's work of the stock.

I think it's an evolutionary process, that shift.

[TEC]

H-2A certificated herders in the US, and many other farm workers, own neither their dogs nor sheep/stock they care-for. Clearly their stockwork is for a commercial purpose.

 

It may be a fuzzy middle area between recreational and non-rec, with bright lines at the extremes. I'm not sure a strict definition is necessary, as long as the reasonable goal is for handler to learn proper use of his/her dog to work stock. -- TEC

[Camden's Mom]

Recreational herding ??????????

 

You are either herding or your not. The Dog is either herding or its not.

 

I must really be missing something.

 

Sorry, I may have opened up a can of worms using the term "recreational herding" as the label for what I was interested in discussing. I'm not even sure if it's a term that's really used in this community (and probably a dead give away that I'm not exactly a seasoned veteran of the herding world. )

 

What I was inquiring about in the original post, specifically, was people who choose to herd with their dogs for the sheer pleasure of it and whose herding in no way directly effects their livelihood.

 

Someone who owns their own stock OR a reputable breeder that is testing their dogs on stock for the sake of bettering the breed, I would not consider recreational.

 

I also didn't intend for the word "recreational" to mean something negative. Sorry if the use of the phrase "recreational herding" caused confusion or offense!

[Mark Billadeau]

@Mark But doesn't one follow the other?

It can and it should.

However, I do see examples where it does not and I'm seeing an increase in examples where it does not.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

The perspicacious Ms. Atwater writes (in part): "Just to play the devil's advocate ... if a dog has behavioral problems, working sheep will not fix them. It's a mistake to think that a dog "needs" to work livestock as a solution to problems at home. A border collie in the right home doesn't have major or severe behavioral problems if his people devote the time, attention and training that he requires."

 

Yes and no. These dogs aren't a bundle of behaviors; they're complex, sentient mammals with learned and genetic desires and many novice's dogs' household manners will improve after a month or two of weekly stockwork instruction. NOT ALL. Many.

 

After all: it is likely the first time anyone has asked these dogs to do anything that made dog-sense.

 

Sheepdogs want to inhabit dog-sensible space. A few sheepdogs are so indifferent to humans, that space occurs only during stockwork. More learn that on stock at least, their owner means what he/she says.

 

I recently spent time with a family whose dogs are competing for a UDX, but were unmannerly at home. Anyone who spends time with obedience or agility dogs has seen many like them: excellent competitors but less mannerly than many "untrained" household pet. Unmannerly trained sheepdogs exist but they are rare.

 

Unlike other forms of Border Collie work/play, stockwork is genetically satisying. If the dog goes out and brings sheep - that most basic of tasks - and stops, on command, when he has done so, the world makes sense to him and your part in it, your direction of his everyday behaviors makes sense too.

 

Can a dog ignorant Klutz improve his/her dog's mannerliness by putting ti in a small ring with sheep? I doubt it. Klutz is in the wrong place at the wrong time, dog's genes are overwhelming what little obedience it has and sheep want Out of There.

 

But. If the Klutz persists for a month or three under the guidance of a good mentor (who will be instructing the Klutz as much or more than the dog), I believe the dog's manners will also improve.

 

Now the dog has skin in the game.

 

Donald McCaig

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I very much appreciate your post Donald. My two dogs are really pet dogs who move sheep from point a to point b when asked. When they start to act like they have built up too much energy I take them to my small flock and just move them around for a while. They come back to the house with smiles in their faces, satisfied. That satisfaction lasts longer than just physical fatigue.

Obviously it's in they are, to use your phrase, genetically satisfied, more so than a long hike or an hour game of fetch or I suspect even agility if I were to get into that.

[emilyfalk]

I wonder if this "genetic satisfaction" is affected by the amount of "stockdog" bred into the individual border collie. My first dog, Ella, a backyard bred merle with some wires crossed, definitely did not benefit the way you are describing. She did not stare at the cat any less, bark any less, settle any more, etc no matter how often or how long I or anyone else worked her on sheep. For her, agility was her "genetic satisfaction." She could go run like a wild woman while still engaging her brain. On sheep, while she had some of the basic instincts in place (balancing, gathering, driving), it just wasn't the correct outlet for her. When I got my trained dog Rae, there really wasn't any need to try to make Ella into something she was not, though from Ella's perspective, running sheep was certainly SUPER FUN. It became easy to see that I was herding with Ella because I wanted it for her, like someone described, because I thought she needed to fulfill some ancestral urge. She not only didn't need or benefit from it, but the lesson sheep surely didn't need or benefit from it.

 

That's how I picture a lot of the recreational herding, as we've come to name it here. Dogs who aren't bred for the work that have too much drive and not enough talent, who barely, if ever, get out of the round pen. I'm not saying that it's not worth a try, and in my case I learned a ton by hanging out with my first instructor, her sheep, and her dogs...but I worry that people forget to think of the lesson sheep and their quality of life.

 

Ella is now 8 and I'm on my 6th working dog, have a farm, and actively trial. If that's the progression of recreational herding, I'm all for it! If it's to take the dog out regularly to chase some sheep simply because the dog is a border collie and that's what it's supposed to do...no. I respect the sheep and the culture too much for that.

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, I do think it's possible to pursue stockwork with respect and passion and not have to progress to buying a farm and raising sheep. It's really all about attitude.

 

As for people wanting to try it with their dogs, I think it's incumbent on the instructor/mentor to be honest/realistic about a dog's abilities or prospects. That is, a person who gives lessons or opens his/her farm up for people to work dogs needs to not put income ahead of quality of life of the livestock. After all, I don't feel comfortable telling people that stockwork is only for an elite few. As I said before, many of us started this journey for any number of reasons but generally with the dog we had and with a trainer/mentor who was willing to give us the time of day, and also willing to say "not with this dog."

 

J.

[emilyfalk]

Well, I didn't mean to imply that everyone needs to go the distance. I'm sorry if it was misinterpreted. I was trying to demonstrate that in my case, my dog has been totally happy without working sheep, and that I got the other dogs in order to do it the way it's supposed to be done.

 

I do think that herding *should* be available to an elite few: those who want to learn, do things correctly, and act appropriately toward the sheep. Maybe you guys have seen different examples of the "bad ones" than I have, but in my experience, there are way too many people doing it for the wrong reasons, which goes for newbies, instructors, and even some trialers. I know you care about your sheep, Julie, so I'm sure you're not the type of instructor letting people run amok with their dogs. But the wrong attitude is out there, in the border collie world and the all-breed world.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I would hazard a guess that many who are elite now were not elite when they started.

Let's take the example of someone who gets a border collie because they're cute, they're smart, and they watched Babe. Eventually the owner gets to herding because they think they can recite bahramewe and all will be well. Yes, wrong reason. The dog should not be saddled with the owner's mistake. Who is to say that a complete klutz suburbanite can't change and learn how to handle himself and his dog and see the responsibility of livestock management.

I do not think that every single last person on this board was born to livestock management. I suspect many elite and important people on this board started as something fun to do.

Just because someone made the initial mistake of getting a working dog for a pet doesn't mean he can't learn the means to be an effective stock manager or handler.

If it were only open to an elite few I dare say some big names would probably be missing.

[juliepoudrier]

Emily, I'm not saying the wrong attitude doesn't exist; in fact, I said the opposite. But the fact remains that most of us went to a trainer because we had a border collie and we wanted to try it. I know I had no idea where it would lead me. I imagine many of us relied on someone's good graces to get us started. When I mentioned elitism, I simply meant that I am not comfortable telling other people they shouldn't follow the same path I did, which was essentially a rescue, a suggestion, and no real idea of where it would lead, so certainly no thoughts of trialing in open, owning sheep, etc.

 

J.

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

Here is a perfect example of someone who did not start as a livestock manager. He now competes at the international level. He didn't even seek out herding, it was suggested to him.

 

http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/050628people_pupcontest.aspx

 

[emilyfalk]

Sure, everyone started at the beginning. Trying something new isn't the "wrong" reason I'm talking about. The point I'm trying to make, but seems to be getting lost, is that there are lots of people who take a dog to an instructor once a month or so, let the instructor turn the dog loose on dead broke sheep in a round pen, and take video and pictures of dogs clearly harassing sheep so that they can show all their friends their dog went herding! Just check out YouTube or FB to see how inappropriate stock work is glorified by those who don't know better. It's not their fault for not knowing, like Julie says, they are either uninformed or misled. I don't have a problem with less keen dogs trotting around not causing the sheep any alarm. No harm done to anyone involved. But after you've seen dogs chase, grab, and kill sheep...and have seen that the owner doesn't show remorse and the dog never improves...it definitely changes your perspective. It's all about the attitude of the owner (and instructor): treat the sheep respectfully or stay home.

[emilyfalk]

I understand, Julie! I'm just saying that in some circles instructors like you are the exception rather than the norm.