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"starting" a 12 year old


Guest Lilliam
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No one here has accused your dog of being "a ravenous crazed fiend intent on mayhem"; that you are clueless; and that you are uncaring. You do seem to have quite a bit of understanding from what you write.

 

The point that some others might say is that no matter what the dog is like, working sheep (or other stock) with a dog is still a modification of the predator/prey relationship - the sheep will always feel some level of stress when they are being worked, particularly by a less-experienced dog. Some people just don't find that justifiable for "recreation". Others have absolutely no problem with it.

 

I think that from what you wrote in your last few posts, you have already made your own decision and have a definite plan in mind to deal with however it might turn out. What puzzles me at this point, reading what you have said, is why you even asked for opinions at all as you seem to have both made a determination and have a grasp on how you'd like to pursue this goal.

 

I apologize for getting involved at all in your discussion.

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Guest Lilliam

No one here has accused your dog of being "a ravenous crazed fiend intent on mayhem"; that you are clueless; and that you are uncaring. You do seem to have quite a bit of understanding from what you write.

 

The point that some others might say is that no matter what the dog is like, working sheep (or other stock) with a dog is still a modification of the predator/prey relationship - the sheep will always feel some level of stress when they are being worked, particularly by a less-experienced dog. Some people just don't find that justifiable for "recreation". Others have absolutely no problem with it.

 

I think that from what you wrote in your last few posts, you have already made your own decision and have a definite plan in mind to deal with however it might turn out. What puzzles me at this point, reading what you have said, is why you even asked for opinions at all as you seem to have both made a determination and have a grasp on how you'd like to pursue this goal.

 

I apologize for getting involved at all in your discussion.

I regret that you feel that way. I feel that there is an impression that I will go into someone's ranch and stress the stock with the single aim than to let my dog have a bit of fun.

Bill is a border collie. When I got him I had a trainer. He and my other border collies trained regularly and I even trialed. But I moved as a result of a huge promotion and then got divorced. Since then I have wanted to get back into herding as a hobbyist. It is recreational. But that does not mean frivolous.

I posted with ideas as to how to achieve my goal of putting Bill on stock. As I stated:

 

Hi everone

I've got a 12 year old border collie who my ex husband put on stock ever so briefly. Life happens, as it always does, and the one thing I said to him was "I keep the dogs." Well, at this late stage in Bill's life I want to honor him by putting him back on sheep. I've got no pretensions of being able to trial; rather, I want him to have what he should have had all along and never did due to the changes we all went through.

I don't own sheep but I may have found a place where he can go on sheep. I am thinking to put him in a small round pen and see where he is. I am thinking to look for things like how willing he is to change directions, whether he has good balance, whether he even knows his sides. Am I in the right direction? Do you have any suggestions for "starting" a senior citizen? He does have some arthritis and I've got him on Rymadil.

Is it too late?

Many thanks,

Lil

 

From the very first post I stated that I wanted him on stock, I wasn't asking if I should. I asked is it too late because I don't know if it is possible to start a dog at that age, not whether I should. As a hobbyist, I trained before because I have border collies, and border collies are meant to work. Every last person here knows that. My golden retriever is a gun dog; I don't need to shoot my own own food but we do train in field work because he is a golden retriever and he is meant to retrieve game. I am respectful of a dog's intended purpose.

 

It is ironic that I find it necessary to explain why I want to put my dog on stock again, before he dies, to a forum dedicated to working border collies. Bill is not a Barbie collie. I did not go to a show breeder. I wanted dogs with brains and I got them. Had I not moved I might have made it to Open, were it not for the fact that my shed is atrocious. For a hobbyist without her own sheep I was dedicated enough to get to that point with my second dog. And I know enough to be in a round pen, with a dog on a line, protecting stock. I am familiar with the bubble, the predator/prey "dance." I know to look at sheep's heads and where my dog is and where they will go based on that. I know how to manage a cross drive.

 

I have what? two? three years? This is near the end of the line for us. I expected to get the newbie effect because I am a hobbyist and I am out of practice, I am not insulted by that, admonitions about livestock not being toys aside, but I never expected opposition to putting a border collie on stock in a controlled environment with care to everyone's well being.

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Guest Lilliam

Yeah, they look nice enough...

But I am not on a border collie forum for nothing. For stockwork, the bc is far superior in my (humble ;) ) opinion.

I didn't know what it was!!! The man I'm seeing (long distance relationship with a Liverpudlian is a pain in the neck) had to tell me what it was. He knew the owner of the chip shop where the dog was.

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Lilliam,

We all started somewhere. When I took my first border collie--a rescue of unknown heritage or working ability--someone was willing to give me a chance. I didn't go to that farm with the idea that I was going to become an open handler, run in the finals, own a flock of sheep or anything else. Someone suggested I try it, and I decided I would. Although some of the folks who have answered you have a lifetime of stockworking behind them, most of us probably started just as I did, with the idea that we would try it and see if we wished to pursue it. I don't see why we would then turn and tell others that they should follow that same (or similar) path.

 

Yes, training is stressful on stock. And yet we all train our dogs and start puppies and some even host trials (talk about stress on sheep!), and some of us train other people's dogs. Not all the dogs we train are the dogs of people who aspire to run in the national finals or own their own sheep/cattle/whatever.

 

It is the trainer's responsibility to provide for training while reducing the stress on livestock as much as possible. I have had dogs come to me that I had to tell the owner I could not continue to train because of stress to the stock, lack of progress by the dog, lack of interest/ability from the dog, or lack of an appropriate attitude (IMO) of the handler/student (this really happened just once).

 

I am still using my 12-year-old, arthritic dog. I will say that she is less interested in confrontation with bully rams, but she will take them on if needed. If I know it's going to be rough work, I will use her son instead. But for ewes with lambs or sheep that have scattered who knows where, my old girl is still my preferred using dog. If I do work her beyond something very light, I will make sure to give her NSAIDs that night. I wouldn't expect her to run a full open course anymore, but I still need her and count on her here and just try to be mindful of the limitations that her lifetime of hard knocks have created in her.

 

So if you can find a decent trainer and suitable sheep, I say go for it. You sound like someone who is not only mindful of your dog but also of the livestock. I placed one of my dogs with a person who has no interest in trialing but likes to take lessons so his dogs can do what they were meant to do. Fortunately, he has access to someone who is willing to give him lessons, even if he has no real interest in trialing. This instructor is known to many of the folks on this forum, and I believe no one would think of her as someone who treats her stock badly or exposes them to undue stress. There are such instructors out there.

 

Good luck!

 

J.

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Guest Lilliam

Lilliam,

We all started somewhere. When I took my first border collie--a rescue of unknown heritage or working ability--someone was willing to give me a chance. I didn't go to that farm with the idea that I was going to become an open handler, run in the finals, own a flock of sheep or anything else. Someone suggested I try it, and I decided I would. Although some of the folks who have answered you have a lifetime of stockworking behind them, most of us probably started just as I did, with the idea that we would try it and see if we wished to pursue it. I don't see why we would then turn and tell others that they should follow that same (or similar) path.

 

Yes, training is stressful on stock. And yet we all train our dogs and start puppies and some even host trials (talk about stress on sheep!), and some of us train other people's dogs. Not all the dogs we train are the dogs of people who aspire to run in the national finals or own their own sheep/cattle/whatever.

 

It is the trainer's responsibility to provide for training while reducing the stress on livestock as much as possible. I have had dogs come to me that I had to tell the owner I could not continue to train because of stress to the stock, lack of progress by the dog, lack of interest/ability from the dog, or lack of an appropriate attitude (IMO) of the handler/student (this really happened just once).

 

I am still using my 12-year-old, arthritic dog. I will say that she is less interested in confrontation with bully rams, but she will take them on if needed. If I know it's going to be rough work, I will use her son instead. But for ewes with lambs or sheep that have scattered who knows where, my old girl is still my preferred using dog. If I do work her beyond something very light, I will make sure to give her NSAIDs that night. I wouldn't expect her to run a full open course anymore, but I still need her and count on her here and just try to be mindful of the limitations that her lifetime of hard knocks have created in her.

 

So if you can find a decent trainer and suitable sheep, I say go for it. You sound like someone who is not only mindful of your dog but also of the livestock. I placed one of my dogs with a person who has no interest in trialing but likes to take lessons so his dogs can do what they were meant to do. Fortunately, he has access to someone who is willing to give him lessons, even if he has no real interest in trialing. This instructor is known to many of the folks on this forum, and I believe no one would think of her as someone who treats her stock badly or exposes them to undue stress. There are such instructors out there.

 

Good luck!

 

J.

THANK YOU !!!!!!

Particularly for saying this...."we all started somewhere." Thank you for not making me feel irrelevant, egotistical, insignificant, like a second class citizen, like I don't know what is a dog toy...THAT was the most condescending and insulting thing I have heard said to me. Not Alasdair, not Scot, not any clinician of stature who by rights of talent, status or experience has ever treated so meanly as to be that insulting. Would anyone question their wisdom in allowing a spot in their clinics to a mere hobbyist....ha....those top handlers, and others of that caliber, have offered their knowledge and treated me with dignity without demanding livestock ownership or "useful purpose." They saw someone who respected the dogs and wanted to do right by them. And gave me the benefit of the doubt as to whether I had a brain.

Thank you. TEC, Gloria, Julie...those of you who did not treat me like a fool, I appreciate it.

Thank you for the support.

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One last comment....I respect my dogs. I respect their breeding, their culture. If I, who am terrified of guns, can pick one up and can pick up a disgusting duck carcass because I respect my gun dog's intended purpose, why would I not be equally mindful of my border collie's intended work and the livestock that are part of that work?

 

I have picked dogs with brains. And I respect their different cultures. Grant ME the same respect when I pursue the expression of their breedings.

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An impromptu poll

How many here work their dogs on stock that do not own nor ever will own stock and are not employed as a ranch hand anywhere?

 

I own a farm because of my dogs, I do not let people pay me to work my stock. That way I can choose who works my stock or not. I certainly don't make enough money off of them to call it profitable.

So really it is for pleasure that I work my dogs. Mine and theirs.

I certainly understand the op's desire to put her dog on sheep.

My warning would be that 12 is a senior. Be careful what sheep you put him on.

But unless your dog is exceptionly hard on sheep i dont see that much stress to sheep that are worked by dogs everyday anyway. specially the way you describe your dog.

Just my 2cents worth.

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Lillian, put yourself in the forum members shoes for a minute. We don't know you or your dog from Adam. We didn't know your background or previous training (or your dog's) until you explained it. Most of that was elaborated on after the dog toy comment. Your situation is unusal and highly unique. It is not uncommon for people to desire to put their dog on sheep and have little regard for the sheep. Folks were just explaining how they felt about the proposal based on the information they currently had and their past experiences. I can understand how the comments felt unfair to you, and agree that they would have been if they were dirrected at you in a conversation after the other party knew your background and ethics. But they were hardly unfair in the context of general communication on an internet forum. It's certainly not a bad thing when people speak with the well being of their animals in mind. I do wish you well in you endevors and hope you have several more happy and fulfilling years with your dog. Those seniors are quite special.

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Lillian, put yourself in the forum members shoes for a minute. We don't know you or your dog from Adam. We didn't know your background or previous training (or your dog's) until you explained it. Most of that was elaborated on after the dog toy comment. Your situation is unusal and highly unique. It is not uncommon for people to desire to put their dog on sheep and have little regard for the sheep. Folks were just explaining how they felt about the proposal based on the information they currently had and their past experiences. I can understand how the comments felt unfair to you, and agree that they would have been if they were dirrected at you in a conversation after the other party knew your background and ethics. But they were hardly unfair in the context of general communication on an internet forum. It's certainly not a bad thing when people speak with the well being of their animals in mind. I do wish you well in you endevors and hope you have several more happy and fulfilling years with your dog. Those seniors are quite special.

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Guest Lilliam

Lillian, put yourself in the forum members shoes for a minute. We don't know you or your dog from Adam. We didn't know your background or previous training (or your dog's) until you explained it. Most of that was elaborated on after the dog toy comment. Your situation is unusal and highly unique. It is not uncommon for people to desire to put their dog on sheep and have little regard for the sheep. Folks were just explaining how they felt about the proposal based on the information they currently had and their past experiences. I can understand how the comments felt unfair to you, and agree that they would have been if they were dirrected at you in a conversation after the other party knew your background and ethics. But they were hardly unfair in the context of general communication on an internet forum. It's certainly not a bad thing when people speak with the well being of their animals in mind. I do wish you well in you endevors and hope you have several more happy and fulfilling years with your dog. Those seniors are quite special.

Thank you for your input.

What I would have asked of the board, as I grant to anyone, is the benefit of the doubt as we all deserve. Rather than to assume that I have no regard for sheep and to disregard and mock my desire to seek my dog's "fulfilment" I would have hoped for pointed yet not accusatory questions as to my background which I would have willingly given.

I am not responsible for anyone else's callousness or carelessness and I will not take upon myself others' sins. It is simply disconcerting to have to explain myself.

I am not a name dropper. Suffice it to say that I have taken lessons and I have attended clinics with some of the best clinicians in the U.S. I have attended trials in the UK as a present from the man I'm seeing, who happens to live in Liverpool. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination and I am a hobbyist but I am not irresponsible. I have taken care of a friend's ranch on many many many occasions for whole weekends at a time, to include the stock in that ranch. It mean moving forty or fifty head of sheep, it meant dealing with ewes and lambs. It meant dealing with rams. I have worked Rambouillet ewes. I have trialed and always lost because I am a hobbyist, I could never compete with the big hats and I would never expect to win. I did it for the love of the dog. I love the dogs and my love of the dogs led me to a lifestyle far removed from the information technology world where I work.

I asked a simple question in the training forum - if I am mindful of my dog's movement with sheep, is it too late. Can a 12 year old still learn, example, a get back when doing a pen. Can a square out his flank or is it too ingrained to slice through if that is what he might do. Can a drive be taught to a 12 year old if he hasn't got an innate skill for it. What about the cross drive. Notice I don't even try to think of my Achilles' heel, which is the shed. That I never mastered.

I understand your point. My only counter would be that people who seek out a forum and post a question already have an interest in doing the right thing, at least I do. I love animals, all animals, excepting frogs and lizards who will make me run into the next county in three nanoseconds. Of course I am mindful of stock and their welfare.

Shall I tell you my dogs' breedings? Cassie came from Alasdair McRae's Ben and Pat Greenwell's Dana. Dru came from Dodie Green's Kip and Janna Duncan's Tap. Bill came from Ken Willard's Ben and his bitch Dotty. They are well bred, working lines. They all worked until I moved and lost access to sheep. I tried to contact serveral people through the years but no one would give me the time of day. Because I am a hobbyist. So yes, I gave up. And I lost Cassie and then I lost Dru. And thinking that after spending years looking for a place to put my Bill on stock again and never finding one, that I would never again be able to train, I got a golden retriever. A field bred dog. Another working dog.

Not all hobbyists are fly by night uninformed frivolous fashion minded fools. I will have a border collie again, as a hobbyist. Because I love the breed. Most likely a rescue dog if I am accepted. And in this very forum there is a sticky that talks about how those of us who do not own ranches are not second class citizens. In that sticky it says that someone who gives a border collie a good home has done right by the dog. I read that sticky and I took it to heart. The shock was the condescending attitude.

I appreciate your thoughts. And I thank you for your good wishes. There is a quote, I don't know whose, that says something to the effect that lucky is the person who has earned the love of an old dog. I love that quote. And I love my Bill. And if it means that in the pursuit to give him what is in his bones and in his blood I have to deal with incorrect assumptions, that is a price I am willing to pay. Because in my mind I can already see his smile at having worked sheep again.

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An impromptu poll

How many here work their dogs on stock that do not own nor ever will own stock and are not employed as a ranch hand anywhere?

 

I own a farm because of my dogs, I do not let people pay me to work my stock. That way I can choose who works my stock or not. I certainly don't make enough money off of them to call it profitable.

So really it is for pleasure that I work my dogs. Mine and theirs.

I certainly understand the op's desire to put her dog on sheep.

My warning would be that 12 is a senior. Be careful what sheep you put him on.

But unless your dog is exceptionly hard on sheep i dont see that much stress to sheep that are worked by dogs everyday anyway. specially the way you describe your dog.

Just my 2cents worth.

You can't imagine how much I appreciate our support. Thank you for your input.

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If you want accurate answers you should provide relavent information.

 

The information provided was about a true novice 12 year old dog (my ex husband put on stock ever so briefly) and a novice handler (based upon how the question was posed) without their own sheep. Progress for a true novice dog and novice handler when going to lessons weekly (a dedicated tranee) will be slow and the dog's aging body will quickly stop any progress.

 

Most herding novices do not appreciate the impact on livestock that their desire for their dog to "have what he should have had all along". As a livestock owner I must weigh this impact vs. the benifit for handler & dog.

 

For a dog that is not likley to progress very far (12 year old true novice dog), is the impact on the livestock worth it?

 

The subsequent information calls into doubt the initial impression the the 12 year old dog is a true novice.

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If you want accurate answers you should provide relavent information.

 

The information provided was about a true novice 12 year old dog (my ex husband put on stock ever so briefly) and a novice handler (based upon how the question was posed) without their own sheep. Progress for a true novice dog and novice handler when going to lessons weekly (a dedicated tranee) will be slow and the dog's aging body will quickly stop any progress.

 

Most herding novices do not appreciate the impact on livestock that their desire for their dog to "have what he should have had all along". As a livestock owner I must weigh this impact vs. the benifit for handler & dog.

 

For a dog that is not likley to progress very far (12 year old true novice dog), is the impact on the livestock worth it?

 

The subsequent information calls into doubt the initial impression the the 12 year old dog is a true novice.

I am a novice handler. I never trialed Open. I cannot do a shed therefore I never stepped into an open field. Therefore I am not an expert. Bill never trialed. My ex husband put him on sheep briefly. Therefore Bill is a novice dog since he has never trialed. I could only trial in Pro Novice because I went on a Pro Novice trial. I went beyond Novice Novice.

My dog's well being and my desire to get him to work sheep as I described in a small round pen is worth EVERYTHING to me. You have made it clear that it is not worthy of your time or your effort. That is abundantly clear. You deem me and my dog unworthy. That message is loud and clear. Rest assured that I will not trouble you at any point for a chance to work my dog.

Bill is a true novice. He has never set foot in a trial field. By my initial post, and had you asked before jumping to the wrong conclusion, it is evident that I have some background. And I said explicitly that I do not own sheep. There are many hobbyists who do not own sheep. That does not make us uninformed.

You may doubt as you wish.

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Guest Lilliam

Versions of this thread are often repeated on these boards when an OP is not happy when sought-after advice does not conform with what he/she wishes to hear.

Thank you so much for your input.

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Hm, this is getting out of hand for no good reason at all.

You are taking general advice way to personal Lilliam.

I read this whole thread carefully, and nowhere were you mocked or insulted as you claim.

How would you describe the dismissive usage of the word "fulfilment" in quotes when it was not a word I myself used? How would you describe being admonished that livestock are not dog toys?

I came for information - is a 12 year old too old to expect to learn. I have gotten comments about no real purpose, I have been informed that livestock is not a toy. I wanted "My 12 year old was too set in his way to learn to do a cross drive" or "My 12 year old picked up how to do a cross drive." I wanted information about old dogs being put in training in a round pen after having little training before. Did it work, did it not work. Did they learn to keep out, did they slice in. Did they do a 100 yard gather or could they do a 200 yard gather. Did they go outside of the round pen or did they not.

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Lilliam, you say your dog is arthritic to the point of needing (I'm assuming) daily Rymadyl and that his current activity level is "moderate".

 

That describes me -- well, except that I don't take Rymadil but a human arthritis/pain medication ^_^ -- to a T.

 

If someone were to ask me to go out and help them with their sheep now for 10 minutes, I'd be eager to do it. But I'd suffer from it for days afterwards.

 

If you don't have arthritis yourself, it might be difficult to imagine the effects it can have on your body. Yes, exercise and activity can help, but adding short term, intense activity -- especially activity that will undoubtedly require Bill to move quickly in ways he's unaccustomed to doing now -- can wreak havoc. Muscles weaken and/or compensate for arthritic joints and making those muscles move in ways they're not used to can be quite painful, in addition to the addition stress on the joints.

 

If you decide to pursue this with Bill, please at least consider the advice of the poster who suggested conditioning exercise prior to putting him on sheep again. Perhaps asking your vet for her or his advice might also be worth considering.

 

My own opinion, based solely on what you've said about his age, arthritis and current activity, is that yes, it's too late to restart Bill on sheep.

 

Whatever you decide to do, I hope you enjoy your time with Bill.

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Lilliam, you say your dog is arthritic to the point of needing (I'm assuming) daily Rymadyl and that his current activity level is "moderate".

 

That describes me -- well, except that I don't take Rymadil but a human arthritis/pain medication ^_^ -- to a T.

 

If someone were to ask me to go out and help them with their sheep now for 10 minutes, I'd be eager to do it. But I'd suffer from it for days afterwards.

 

If you don't have arthritis yourself, it might be difficult to imagine the effects it can have on your body. Yes, exercise and activity can help, but adding short term, intense activity -- especially activity that will undoubtedly require Bill to move quickly in ways he's unaccustomed to doing now -- can wreak havoc. Muscles weaken and/or compensate for arthritic joints and making those muscles move in ways they're not used to can be quite painful, in addition to the addition stress on the joints.

 

If you decide to pursue this with Bill, please at least consider the advice of the poster who suggested conditioning exercise prior to putting him on sheep again. Perhaps asking your vet for her or his advice might also be worth considering.

 

My own opinion, based solely on what you've said about his age, arthritis and current activity, is that yes, it's too late to restart Bill on sheep.

 

Whatever you decide to do, I hope you enjoy your time with Bill.

Thank you so much for your input.

Yes, he is on Rimadyl because I've noticed that after some hard hiking or some hard playing he is stiff. He goes for hydrotherapy twice a week for weight management and for exercise without having to deal with the load bearing. That is a great idea, to talk to his vet. When I had his hips xrayd and his blood panel done before the Rymadil six months ago there was some thickening but it wasn't terrible. We put him on Rimadyl for those days when he plays too hard or we hike too hard or he runs around too much at day care.

I will talk to his orthopedic specialist. Thanks for the suggestion.

PS by the way when I say weight management I mean maintenance. He is at 51 lbs and he is a tall boy. I don't know how to post pics here on this forum, this is different from the boards I'm used to.

PSS OK I found how to post pics but all the pics I've got of Bill sideways so you can see his weight (the tuckup) are too large. In any case, he is in good shape, except for the arthritis that has started to come on in the last year or so. It's most obvious when he doesn't want to get on the bed with me after hiking or playing hard all day.

post-11169-0-84073600-1383667021_thumb.jpg

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"I want to honor him by putting him back on sheep"

"I want him to have what he should have had all along"

I guess I should not have taken your statements to mean want him to feel fulfilled by allowing him to do what he was bred to do.

My mistake, have fun.

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"I want to honor him by putting him back on sheep"

"I want him to have what he should have had all along"

I guess I should not have taken your statements to mean want him to feel fulfilled by allowing him to do what he was bred to do.

My mistake, have fun.

You know very well that the use of the word in quotes, as you had it, is either quoting me or taking a dismissive and mocking tone. Since I never used it, when coupled with the toys comment, the meaning is clear.

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Perhaps if you had years of experience on this forum where new members ask similar questions using similar language as those I've quoted above where what they really wanted was approval for using sheep as dog toys your attitude on my stance would be different.

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