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Amelia

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So if a dog could control if they got shocked or not (ie, either obeying or blowing off a command they knew/understood) would this make a difference?

 

That is how the people that I know use ecollars with high drive working breeds (GSD, Malinios, Field Lab) They train behaviors without the collar. They proof the behavior the best they can at a short distance under varying distraction. They set the dogs up for success, They reward obedience, give fair corrections for blowing off commands that are known/proofed. The ecollar just allows them some distance in the commands. ie, off leash work in an environment where something might pop up which might give the dog an opportunity to blow off a command. The ecollar gives them long distance control. Handler gives a recall command, dog sees a squirrel out of the corner of it's eye and blows off a command it understands. Dog is corrected with the collar.

 

When the dogs are corrected, they understand that it is just a long distance correction from the handler. That blowing off a command is not an option.

 

The dogs are happy. They're not confused by the collar any more than any other fair correction. they don't cower or flinch at the collar or the sight of the remote. Training is fun and rewarding. Working with the handler is fun and rewarding. Blowing off the handler gets corrected.

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I'm kind of curious ... why do gun dog trainers rely on e-collars to control their dogs?

 

Hunting dogs work at distance, possibly out of sight of the handler, are extremely keen, and need to obey commands even if they land in the middle of a herd of deer or a flock of pheasant. In what way is that different from sheepdogs? Sheepdogs also work at distance - probably even further than gun dogs - also possibly out of sight of the handler, are extremely keen, and may likewise find themselves amidst deer, quail, rabbits or who knows what other natural stimulus.

 

I guess I fail to see why gun dogs should be so different from BCs, that they can only be trained by negative reinforcement. Maybe gun dogs are just that thick in the head?

 

Confused,

 

Gloria

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Hum, what did people do...what did my grandpa and pop do to train their hunting dogs whom they depended on without these collars?

 

 

 

. If you don't think the dogs don't mind them I still go back to my original bet. I can train you with or without a collar. Your call....which is it for you? You willing to put one on....????

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I guess I fail to see why gun dogs should be so different from BCs, that they can only be trained by negative reinforcement. Maybe gun dogs are just that thick in the head?

 

Training and correcting are two different things.

 

Training is done in a positive manner, without the use of the collar. It involves rewards such as food and toys.

 

And actually, I never stated gun dogs. And I've never seen them used in gun dog training. More with off leash, distance control for working drive GSD, Malinios with a field lab thrown in (but wasn't being trained as a gun dog)

 

It's not the ecollar training from 20 (sheesh, even 8-10) years ago.

 

. If you don't think the dogs don't mind them I still go back to my original bet. I can train you with or without a collar. Your call....which is it for you? You willing to put one on....????

 

Like I said above, they're not used in the training phase but the correction phase. Training is done in a positive manner. It's not the ecollar training from a few years back ( I am familiar with that method of "training" - it's highly unfair to the dog and I would never approve of using an ecollar in that manner)

 

And to the second part, yes, if used in the manner which I am describing. Because once again, they are not being used to train a dog but to correct at a distance. There is a huge difference.

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My father used to hunt with field dogs many years ago...like 45 or so years ago....we had German Shorthairs and pointers and he was VERY sucessful..in fact, he sold "Blackie" . my favorite dog for $500 and 45 yrs ago, that was a LOT of money. I asked my father (he is deceased now) if he used e-collars on his dogs. (I asked him about this subject about 15 years ago) and he said "Why" and then followed by "those who can NOT train did and those of us who can train did not"

 

I cried my eyes out when he sold Blackie. I used to eat with him (share dog biscuits) and he hung out with me all the time. I would sneak off into his kennel and cuddle in his bed with him. He was my shadow and my best friend. I found out years later, that he missed me, chewed a hole through his chain link fence, came home over many miles and was killed close to the house, trying to return to me. My father sold him as we needed the money back then and he regreted it.

 

Since then I would never own another German shorthair...the pain still is too great to this day.

 

Blackie was one of the best as he wanted to please and was talented....he worked his heart out and the only collar he had was the red one that I got him.

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Hello everyone,

 

I'm not sure when shock collars evolved into "e-collars", but calling a shock collar an e-collar certainly sounds a lot nicer, doesn't it? The e-collar still delivers an electric shock, which is now called an "electrical stimulation", and that sounds a lot nicer, too. Well, unless you are the dog on the receiving end of the shock, that is.

 

It may be that some people who use shock collars do use them in the manner that waffles and Mara describe. But using a shock collar to "correct the dog at a distance" is still abusive. Those of us who have working sheepdogs can correct our dogs at a quarter of a mile (or more) by simply using our voices.

 

Here's a quote from one of the websites previously posted: "An intelligently used e-collar can help a dog owner avoid embarrassment, disappointment and anger." Hmmmm....we wouldn't want the owner to be embarrassed, disappointed, or angry because they haven't taught their dog to be obedient at a distance, so we condone shocking the dog? I would think that the owner should be more worried about being perceived as an abusive owner when they push that button to deliver a electrical shock to their dog.

 

People were effectively training their dogs to obey at a distance long before shock collars were invented, and it is still possible to do so without resorting to using one.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

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Mara, I respect your post, but mine was responding to one of the websites, which referred to controlling their gun dogs using e-collars. They seemed to especially point at the lack of a recall, which led to dogs being lost for days, possibly injured. Again, I have to wonder how that's different from a border collie - which can also get lost at a trial, yet I never hear of anyone reputable using an e-collar to train a border collie's recall.

 

And I still remember that woman with her crated dog in the car, screaming its lungs out - and evacuating its anal glands - because she left the collar on the wrong dog and kept hitting the shock button when the dog she was working failed to respond. Nothing will ever make an e-collar "okay" with me, and I would still like to hear someone explain why corrections or any sort of gun-dog handling can't be done withOUT the use of an e-collar.

 

They're dogs. Whatever they've been bred for, they're all still dogs. Canis familiaris. I'd have to believe there's something fundamentally different about field dogs' minds and psychology, to make e-collars necessary to accomplish a well-trained field/gun dog.

 

You know, I think this discussion is going to make me a lot more aware of, and a good deal more militant about, the use of electric collars where I can see them. This may be the wake-up call I need, to get off my wussy ass and make a stand, when needed. ;)

 

~ Gloria

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Once when I was working Roo, he decided to behave badly. I shouted out to him "What do you think you are doing?" I was in the lower pasture and it is about 300 yards from the house.

 

The girls in the house heard me and all ran to their beds and did not more.

 

Jeff was in the house and commented to me when I got in. Wow, the girls heard you and they all wanted not to be trouble and ran to their beds. I have been practicing my corrections in a deep voice and with intent.

 

They apparently turned their heads to and fro and listened to me work Roo. Jeff said he knew when Roo was working well as the girls all leaped up and acted fine.

 

(When I say "what do you think you are doing" is the correction I yse before I run up the field...the dogs know it as the 'Oh sh*t, I better behave or else" correction.

 

You don't need a e-collar when your voice and body has a clearer intent of what is needed at that point.

 

I have a friend who used e-collars for years. I worked on him for years on not using them on his Border Collies. He got rid of his collars this weekend and I asked him why. His response was "I don't need them anymore and I know better now"...and he can train now with out the collars...so that is one that haas seen the light...it took a few years but by hanging out with me and seeing how I train and my success, he has seen the light.

 

 

It was a huge step and we both were happy.

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To add to Diane's post:

 

I think Vergil Holland's explanation is very important. I never used an e-collar for training, but it made me realize something very important in stock work training in general, which is that the correction must come from the handler, and that it is in the nature of border collies to overcome the external obstacles and do what the handler wants.

 

Hence, the border collie will fight the ewe, the heat, the cold, the mud, the exhaustion, the very instinct, because the handler wants it. My dogs are taught to jump over the electric fence because I want it. They don't know that the fence won't zap them if their feet touch the wire. They do it thinking that it will zap them if their feet touch the fence, and yet they do it without hesitation because I asked them.

 

This realization made me change a lot in my training my dog when she was a puppy and who I believed wanted to please me. So the first thing that went was the leash - I had a dog that wanted to go to the sheep so bad, she was ready to choke herself on the leash. So I took the leash off.

 

So the only thing that kept her from dashing off to the sheep was my voice. And the only thing that she had to think about was the sheep and me. Her mind was not occupied with how to get rid of that thing that was stopping her from going to the sheep. My mind did not have the crutch - the leash. From the very first time there was a marked improvement. Within a very short time I had a dog that walked beautifully to the sheep by my side.

 

With this in mind I changed a lot in my training and Bonnie became a beautifully obedient dog on sheep without losing her sheep sense. And I always try to keep in mind that principle that correction has to really come from me, so that she felt that whatever the thing was, it wasn't an external obstacle to be overcome but that she felt inside that it was me not wanting her to do it so that she inside wanted to do the right thing and overcome her own desires.

 

(Again my colleagues thought I was off my bean for claiming that she will feel more pressure if she is off the leash, because they claim that the presence of the leash adds to the pressure of my voice. But I was claiming that it takes away from the pressure of my voice because it takes away her attention from me and causes her to try to counteract the leash).

 

BTW. I also use "What are you doing!" as a correction :lol:

 

Concerning hunting dogs. Once on a Polish forum I was trying explain my views on border collies and what makes them tick without much success when suddenly a person spoke up who seemed to understand perfectly what I was talking about. It was a hunting dog breeder. Evidently a good hunting dog also needs the duality of nature: a strong hunting drive and a very strong willingness to please. Because a hunting dog needs it if it is to have any recall whatsoever. A hunting dog that won't return unless trained by an e-collar is seriously lacking as a hunting dog.

 

Maja

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speaking of verbal corrections and vergil....nova spent a month of training with vergil, so i use his correction "you get out of that s**t right now!" always cracks me up!

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Those of us who have working sheepdogs can correct our dogs at a quarter of a mile (or more) by simply using our voices.

 

 

Yes we can. And it's an amazing thing. They are sensitive, biddable and want to please. Our look, the tone of our voice, the pressure of our body, these are all things they respond to.

 

But I've also read here also how to set the dog up on a long line and give them a whopper of a correction to quite chasing cars. People using "come to Jesus" methods to enforce a point. Hardly positive methods, in fact they're intended to startle/scare the dog out of the behavior. So as sensitive, biddable and wanting to please as the breed is as a whole, apparently not even every Border Collie can be corrected with just a voice at a quarter of a mile.

 

Some breeds are much more independent with higher prey drive and not nearly as biddable. Just because I can call my dog off of chasing a deer when he is half way across a field doesn't mean that every dog is going to leave the (highly rewarding) chase just like that. A few months ago there was a thread here about an open level sheepdog that took off chasing a deer and never came home. He blew off his owner and was gone.

 

My personal bottom line is that you train in a kind, positive manner. You build rapport with your dog, you do not violate the trust that they've placed in you. You correct based on the temperament of the dog in front of you. But I've also seen circumstances where something stronger than a voice is warranted. And I cannot fault a person for using something stronger if the alternative could be dire.

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Ok lets meet and I will put this e-collar on you and train you without words or hand gestures using the correction approach and we will film it.

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Whoops- got it turned up a bit high

 

 

Whoops hit the dang button twice.

 

 

 

Whoops that was not really your fault.

 

 

oK....Ok I got it figured out now

 

 

 

Where'd she go?

 

 

;)

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Whoops- got it turned up a bit high

 

 

Whoops hit the dang button twice.

 

 

 

Whoops that was not really your fault.

 

 

oK....Ok I got it figured out now

 

 

 

Where'd she go?

 

 

;)

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Whoops- got it turned up a bit high

 

 

Whoops hit the dang button twice.

 

 

 

Whoops that was not really your fault.

 

 

oK....Ok I got it figured out now

 

 

 

Where'd she go?

 

 

;)

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Ok lets meet and I will put this e-collar on you and train you without words or hand gestures using the correction approach and we will film it.

 

You don't train using a correction approach. Period. Stop. It's called "aviodance training" and it is abuse. It's abuse to correct for something that you've never trained.

 

I have never said you train a dog this way. I've said just the opposite. In many posts. The only time I've said it is okay to correct a dog is for blowing off a command - a command that has been clearly trained in a positive manner and the dog has demonstrated knowlegde of said command in a variety of settings.

 

IE, a dog that has recalled beautifully (and been rewarded for it) for several weeks in a variety of situations that all of a sudden decides that they would rather chase a rabbit or deer than come back to you when called.

 

Once again -

 

My personal bottom line is that you train in a kind, positive manner. You build rapport with your dog, you do not violate the trust that they've placed in you. You correct based on the temperament of the dog in front of you.

 

I'm not quite sure how I can get any clearer :huh:

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Mara,

I you build (and have) a rapport with your dog, then you shouldn't need to be using painful corrections after you have supposedly trained it well using only positive methods. It's like a training oxymoron to say that you need to do so.

 

Tone of voice and body pressure are not *physically* hurting the dog. Even if I have a "Come to Jesus" meeting with a dog over, say, chasing chickens, I don't physically hurt the dog. It's all in the voice tone and body language. Comparing such a method to using a shock collar is comparing apples and oranges.

 

Again, if you have trained a dog well, then it makes no sense to say that you *need* to somehow proof that training after the fact by using painful corrections. If you've gone to the effort to create a partnership that the positive (or at least not punishment-based) training methods allow for, then please explain WHY one would need to follow that up by proofing the training through pain? Seriously, how does that make any sort of sense?

 

Oh,and even yanking a dog off its feet via a long line (for chasing a car, for example) doesn't create the kind of pain that electric shock does. That said, if I could ever be convinced of the utility of a shock collar, the one and only exception I *might* (and that's a big might) make was if the dog's behavior was truly putting its life in danger and a quick fix was the only way of saving the dog. But we all know that even car chasers can be taught not to do that, with time. consistency, and patience. I won't even use a bark collar. I have seen dogs with burns from the electrodes. I hate a barking dog, but I wouldn't do that to one.

 

J.

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Wait- I think I'm in the twighlight zone.

 

 

I'm I typing english.......I think I am.

 

 

 

I'm I just dim or simple???? Maybe? I don't use any big words when I train.

 

 

 

I use the tone of my voice to tell the dog yeah....I like that.....or I growl a bit and tell him, no I don't like that. And we do practical work which the dog, being intelligent figures out.

 

 

 

'Load 'em in the rig?'

 

 

 

Shift these goats outta here?'

 

 

 

Put these steers here now?

 

 

 

Gather this field?

 

 

 

Go find the goats lost in the woods.

 

 

 

I don't need long lines or collars or anything. Just my voice and moving my body to suggest the best place to be in the beggining.

And my dogs work very far from me.

 

 

Your posts read to me like you will use shock collars- you can use words like correction or positive reinforcement or Use The Force Luke.

 

 

 

I don't care.

 

 

 

I ask you- would you let me put one on YOU and train you to do a complex task. Using no words or hand gestures.

 

 

 

You say yes.

 

 

 

Ok lets do it and film it.

 

 

 

Maybe you mean something completely different than what I am reading......I don't know????

 

 

 

But if so sorry I misunderstand, I am a bit dim I'm afraid.

 

 

 

And I gotta go milk goats and move the big flock out

And Figure out Mr MacCrae's online dog thing, on my failing computer.

 

 

I don't like e-collars or big words or stuff like that there.

 

 

 

Neh!

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Oh,and even yanking a dog off its feet via a long line (for chasing a car, for example) doesn't create the kind of pain that electric shock does.

 

I felt a ecollar zap once. It hurt less than getting zapped by an electric fence. It was very similar to the static shocks that one gets around the house. I just can't see how yanking a dog off it's feet hurts less than that.

 

If you build (and have) a rapport with your dog, then you shouldn't need to be using painful corrections after you have supposedly trained it well using only positive methods. It's like a training oxymoron to say that you need to do so.

 

I believe that this is very much the case with Border Collies, and arguably the majority of dogs out there. However with certain high drive dogs it isn't the case.

 

I have a friend with a USAR trained lab. They have spent three years working with and training him. The dog lives and breathes for his tennis ball reward. Training is highly motivational. They are an accomplished trainer. It's quite something to watch him work. Yet a few moths ago they were at a training event 1000 miles away from home. A rabbit popped out of the rubble pile they were working at and the dog took off after it and blew off the recall command. A fluke, everyone was surprised it happened.

 

They eventually got him back. The next week at training he was wearing an ecollar. That doesn't mean that this person is a lazy abuser that can't train. They had trained several dogs (with no ecollar) to a high level before this one. But if this dog took after a rabbit again they wanted to be able to correct him for it. He got corrected once. They have set him up numerous times since and he's ignored it.

 

 

Your posts read to me like you will use shock collars- you can use words like correction or positive reinforcement or Use The Force Luke

 

Tea - this is not the case. I would only use an ecollar if I felt my choices were ecollar or a dead dog.

 

I think technical terms are getting in the way of clear communication. I think we probably agree on about 98% of everything.

 

It is amazing how in tune one can be with a Border Collie. I am blown away each time I experience it. The partnership, the silent language the stock sense that you share with the dog. This is why I chose Border Collies over other breeds.

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But I am curious as to what people opinions are of electric fences as they use pain/fear to control stock and are pretty commonplace in livestock operations. Is this acceptable? And if so what is the difference between use electric shocks to control/train one species vs. another?

 

Dogs are farther up the food chain. Higher intelligence brings greater sensitivity. There's no nasty side effects when e-fence is used on livestock. They just avoid the fence and go right on grazing without a thought in their heads.

 

 

That is how the people that I know use ecollars with high drive working breeds (GSD, Malinios, Field Lab) They train behaviors without the collar. They proof the behavior the best they can at a short distance under varying distraction. They set the dogs up for success, They reward obedience, give fair corrections for blowing off commands that are known/proofed. The ecollar just allows them some distance in the commands. ie, off leash work in an environment where something might pop up which might give the dog an opportunity to blow off a command.

 

If their dogs are not trained to take commands at a distance, then your friends have not completely trained their dogs. They have trained them at hand, then took a short cut to the distance work at the expense of their dog.

 

I can command my open dogs as far as they can hear my whistle. I've never shocked any of them, and they would no more take off after a critter than fly to the moon. If they did, it would only be once, and I'd find them a pet home realizing immediately they weren't suitable for the job.

 

Maybe that's part of the problem with your friends' dogs. They are selecting, breeding, training and working the lesser dogs that should never have been kept for the job. The dogs I would want are the ones that are keen, smart and biddable enough to be trained without a shock collar. What you call "high drive" isn't enough.

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I am not a fan/supporter/whatever of shock collars in training, but I think they are like any other tool. They are not one I could ever imagine myself reaching for... but in situations like Mara mentioned, where a successful SAR dog became extremely distracted by a rabbit, the collar was a quick solution.

 

I don't see anything wrong with a more efficient solution in this case. The dog was put off of chasing rabbits, was able to continue doing it's job, and all was well... according to the story of course, I don't know the dog personally. Yes they could have set the dog up repeatedly with rabbits and work under the dog's threshold and rebuild the recall using positive reinforcement. During that time, however, the dog's SAR training would be stalled during the re-training time.

 

No dog is 100% at anything; the people I've known who have worked field dogs often keep a shock collar on all the time as a precaution. They adhere to the clicker-gun dog method and don't use the shock collar to *teach* anything. None of them teach a forced retrieve, for example. They work at enforceable distances for as long as they can. My friends Chesapeake had the distance increased gradually and has never needed the collar. He's worn it, though, in case it was needed. Other dogs in the group have blown off a recall or two at a great distance, received a "correction" from the collar, and been able to continue working reliably.

 

I've met the dogs; they are wonderful and seem well-adjusted enough to me. The collar is worn but rarely used.

 

I don't work field dogs, so I can't really say what's best for them. The handlers I've seen did not use the collars in a way that I felt was abusive. I've certainly seen shocked dogs who develop fearful, stressed behavior. These dogs weren't among them.

 

I don't condone the use of shock collars for the average trainer, but I'm not going to judge those that use them in a way that I feel was minimally harmful. Their dogs seemed just as happy as mine.

 

Just my experience.

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I've wondered about the bird dogs too. My friend has NSDTRs and they use shock collars, though I'm not sure at what stage of the training. What I do know is that when the shock collar comes out, the dogs go NUTS with excitement because they know they're going hunting. Another person whom I know through other dog sports has labs, and they, too, get all wiggly and bouncy when they see you bring out their shock collars.

 

Not condoning the use of shock collars in the training of sheepdogs, nor am I suggesting that all hunting dogs should be trained with shock collars. Just an observation.

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