lying down at the top

[kimkathan]

I have a young dog who is coming along quite well. However, her over exuberance gets her in trouble. She'll lie down very well when close to me, or when the stock is quiet. We're having troubles right now when it comes to the lift. She'll flank out nicely, but when she gets to the top, and the sheep start to move rapidly down the field, she dosen't want to lie down right away (usually 1/2 dozen extra steps or so, but she'll lie down) I have been trying the walk up the field as she starts out and blow through the sheep, but this dosen't seem to be working at all. It seems to be very apparent that she thinks the sheep are getting away, and dosen't think I have a clue (she gets the same look when we walk away from the sheep and let them drift a little for a longer outrun. She's almost ready to start trialing, other than it very well could all fall apart at the top.

[Howdyjabo]

Try lieing her down at three or nine--IF the sheep will stand still. Let her settle

then send her the rest of the way.

 

If you stop the dog and the sheep run down the field--you learned what your real problem is.

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by kimkathan:

I have a young dog who is coming along quite well. However, her over exuberance gets her in trouble. She'll lie down very well when close to me, or when the stock is quiet. We're having troubles right now when it comes to the lift. She'll flank out nicely, but when she gets to the top, and the sheep start to move rapidly down the field, she dosen't want to lie down right away (usually 1/2 dozen extra steps or so, but she'll lie down) I have been trying the walk up the field as she starts out and blow through the sheep, but this dosen't seem to be working at all. It seems to be very apparent that she thinks the sheep are getting away, and dosen't think I have a clue (she gets the same look when we walk away from the sheep and let them drift a little for a longer outrun. She's almost ready to start trialing, other than it very well could all fall apart at the top.

You say she'll lie down when the sheep are quiet. To me, it sounds like she is too close to her sheep on the outrun, disturbing them and causing them to take off as she completes the outrun. I had this problem with my dog until he got to where he gave the sheep enough room on the outrun to prevent disturbing them. Nine times out of ten, problems like this are the result of the dog being too close to the sheep, and it is not getting a chance to lift them before they start running. That makes it very difficult to get a dog that wants to control the sheep to lie down. THE SHEEP WILL TELL YOU. If they are settled, and then start running, the dog is usually too close. This problem will be exacerbated at a trial, because invariably, a dog will run tighter at a trial than at home. You really have to over-compensate on getting the dog wide at home.

 

If the sheep stay settled every time until she gets to the top, and she will lie down at the top before the lift, with the sheep taking off after she begins the lift, then there is a different problem.

 

Regards

[Deacon Dog]

That's excellent advice for working unbroke sheep, but many of us have to train on sheep that aren't going to stay settled at the top without someone holding them no matter how far out the dog is. One of the challenges is teaching the dog to do a proper outrun even if the sheep want to bolt.

 

I'd shorten up and make sure of two things on the dog's normal flanks. One is that the dog is stopping without putting pressure on the stock. The other is that the dog is flanking far enough to cover the heads.

 

Caveat: I'm a novice handler trying to figure this stuff out myself.

[concrete]

This problem will be exacerbated at a trial, because invariably, a dog will run tighter at a trial than at home. You really have to over-compensate on getting the dog wide at home.

So are you saying that you should teach your dogs to run wide and off contact at home because then they will be right at a trial?

 

Kevin

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Deacon Dog:

That's excellent advice for working unbroke sheep, but many of us have to train on sheep that aren't going to stay settled at the top without someone holding them no matter how far out the dog is. One of the challenges is teaching the dog to do a proper outrun even if the sheep want to bolt.

 

She said in the original post that everything went fine "when the stock is quiet", so that leads me to believe the stock will stay settled as long as the dog gives them space. If the sheep take off for the handler shortly after the dog leaves her side on the outrun, then there could be an issue with the sheep that has to be worked around, but that was not what I got from the post. All of us tend to blame the sheep for problems created by the dog. New handlers, especially, often don't realize how far off the sheep a dog needs to be.

 

If the sheep are so dog-broke that they do what I mentioned above, then something must be done to create a "draw" other than to the handler. That might be splitting them up, with some in an enclosure so that the ones you want to work are drawn there rather than to the handler, or using a little feed to hold the sheep, or GETTING NEW SHEEP, or something. Holding sheep that are being affected by an outrunning dog can create an artificial environment that keeps a dog from learning to feel his sheep and how he is affecting them. Even using feed to hold them can be criticized in this context; however, if one is unwilling to change out the sheep, then something has to be done. But I reiterate, sheep taking off is most often the fault of the dog, not the sheep. "Blame the sheep" wins the award for the most-often-used excuse in sheepdog training.

 

Regards

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by concrete:

So are you saying that you should teach your dogs to run wide and off contact at home because then they will be right at a trial?

 

Kevin

 

What do you call "off contact"? Watch some trials, if you haven't, and honestly ask yourself the following question. Do you see more dogs that run too wide, or do you see more dogs that run too close? What I am saying is sheep taking off is usually (I didn't say always) because the dog is TOO TIGHT.

 

Regards

[concrete]

I agree with you that when sheep bolt from a dog at the top of the outrun the dog is probably well into the flight zone. I also agree that the sheep are rarely the cause of problems it's almost always the dog or handler's fault. My question was do you train your dogs to run too wide at home so that when you go to a trial they will be correct?

 

I find that dogs naturally run wider as they get older and if you push a young dog to far out you will likely end up with a dog that runs too deep and off contact with the sheep when it is 5 years old.

I might add that I rarely go to trials so I'm not up on the tricks of winning trials.

 

Kevin

[Howdyjabo]

Haven't been to trials in Years----

 

But I thought the majority of dogs ran too wide and completely out of contact.

 

There are dogs that can take control of stock on the way out-- so that the sheep stand and wait on them-- unless they are horribly spoiled. Give your dog a chance to see if its one of those dogs.

Find out if your sheep ARE horribly spoiled.

 

 

Stopping at 3 or 9 gives the dog the encouragement/chance to take some control before it goes around to the back. And if the sheep take off-- ODDS are they are spoiled.

 

And I think MAKING a YOUNG dog give too much ground is a big mistake-- that cannot be unlearned.Good Dogs naturally widen as they get miles on them.Be real sure that the dog IS pulling in too tight- take it to someone that can really SEE .

And the 3 and 9 stop seems to help dogs not pull in tight at the top all on their own.

 

Take your time and wait for the dog

Give up your ideas of trialing till the dog is ready.

 

 

My favorite "trick"s for spoiled sheep.....

 

is to keep an old dog(with alot of eye) with me when I send the young dog. That will keep the sheep(goats) from rushing to me and give the young dog some good contact to work with .

 

Or I set the sheep(goats) in a dry branch bottom surrounded by brush. They'll stay there till the dog makes a solid lift to get them out.

 

Or I have a pile of old logs and a bunch of round bales-- that I set them behind.

 

Give the sheep(goats) some kind of cover that they feel safer and protected in.

 

Feed works most of the time-- but the sheep can ignore the dog coming-- then bolt off it when they realize its there. Or some can just get plain contakerous and say I'm not leaving till its all gone-- bad for a young dog.

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by concrete:

I agree with you that when sheep bolt from a dog at the top of the outrun the dog is probably well into the flight zone. I also agree that the sheep are rarely the cause of problems it's almost always the dog or handler's fault. My question was do you train your dogs to run too wide at home so that when you go to a trial they will be correct?

I guess it's a matter of trying to get a point across. It's not really training a dog to run "too wide". It's a matter of training a dog to run right. And even if it is running right at home, it will probably run too tight at trials for a while. Most of us, as new handlers/trainers, really had no clue as to what was too tight; and what seems to be working at home, with our dog, on sheep that know the dog and the handler and the environment, seldom works at a trial in the beginning. The reason it seldom works at the first trials is usually because the dog is getting away with being too tight at home. Soooo, that means training the dog to run farther off the sheep, but not "out of contact". You can tell if your dog is "off contact". Is he looking in at the sheep occasionally as he makes his outrun? If so, I don't call that "off contact".

 

Originally posted by concrete:

I find that dogs naturally run wider as they get older and if you push a young dog to far out you will likely end up with a dog that runs too deep and off contact with the sheep when it is 5 years old.

Running wider as they age is probably true, in my opinion, but not necessarily automatically true. What is a dog learning as it ages if it runs some wider? I'm going to give a dog like this some credit that it has learned that it can make its job easier if it gives the sheep space during the outrun so it doesnt disturb them until the lift. If it has done this, and gets behind its sheep efficiently, then how can you say it has run "off contact"? It knew where the sheep were, since it came up behind them on the outrun.

 

Originally posted by concrete:

I might add that I rarely go to trials so I'm not up on the tricks of winning trials.

You should go to trials and watch. It's not a "trick" to win trials. If it's a "trick" to do anything, it's a "trick" to get the dog to give the sheep enough room. The dogs and handlers who win trials are the dogs and handlers who allow sheep an avenue to move through without being in a panic.

 

Regards

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by KillerH:

Haven't been to trials in Years----

 

But I thought the majority of dogs ran too wide and completely out of contact.

I've been to many trials, and too wide/off contact is RARE.

 

Originally posted by KillerH:

There are dogs that can take control of stock on the way out-- so that the sheep stand and wait on them-- unless they are horribly spoiled. Give your dog a chance to see if its one of those dogs.

Find out if your sheep ARE horribly spoiled.

This'll create controversy, I know, but I think, "dogs that can take control of stock on the way out-- so that the sheep stand and wait on them-- ", is wishful thinking. The dogs, in my opinion, aren't "taking control". They are not causing the sheep to flee. The dogs are "controlling" themselves by giving the sheep room until they need to put pressure on to move the sheep.

 

 

Originally posted by KillerH:

Stopping at 3 or 9 gives the dog the encouragement/chance to take some control before it goes around to the back. And if the sheep take off-- ODDS are they are spoiled.

This is also controversial. I have discussed this with successful handlers who say they "avoid stoping a dog on its outrun and then letting it continue" in the early stages of training. They will stop a dog if it is running tight, then bring it back and resend it. Or they will stop a dog, then put pressure on it to widen out, either by going out to where it went wrong, or by resending it from where it was stopped with a flanking command. But they are usually going to know long before 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock that the dog is going wrong.

 

Originally posted by KillerH:

And I think MAKING a YOUNG dog give too much ground is a big mistake-- that cannot be unlearned.Good Dogs naturally widen as they get miles on them.Be real sure that the dog IS pulling in too tight- take it to someone that can really SEE .

And the 3 and 9 stop seems to help dogs not pull in tight at the top all on their own.

It can be a BIG MISTAKE, but is rarely seen. What is COMMONLY seen is dogs running too tight.

 

Originally posted by KillerH:

Take your time and wait for the dog

Give up your ideas of trialing till the dog is ready.

In my opinion, if you can take your dog to the post without him pulling YOU to the post, if you can stop your dog virtually anywhere, if you can recall your dog reliably, and if your dog is doing these things well at home, you SHOULD trial if you want to.

 

 

Originally posted by KillerH:

My favorite "trick"s for spoiled sheep.....

 

is to keep an old dog(with alot of eye) with me when I send the young dog. That will keep the sheep(goats) from rushing to me and give the young dog some good contact to work with .

 

Or I set the sheep(goats) in a dry branch bottom surrounded by brush. They'll stay there till the dog makes a solid lift to get them out.

 

Or I have a pile of old logs and a bunch of round bales-- that I set them behind.

 

Give the sheep(goats) some kind of cover that they feel safer and protected in.

 

 

Feed works most of the time-- but the sheep can ignore the dog coming-- then bolt off it when they realize its there. Or some can just get plain contakerous and say I'm not leaving till its all gone-- bad for a young dog.

All of our tricks to work dog-broke sheep are really poor substitutes for getting fresh sheep, but that's sometimes what we have to do. Pushing sheep off feed is often a real-world job for a sheepdog, so it has value in training, but like everything else, it is only to be used appropriately relative to age/situation/whatnot. This is one game that requires us to give up absolutes.

 

Regards

[kimkathan]

I did take her out today and tried the 3 & 9 stop. She'll stop, and the sheep are VERY alert to where she is, but don't bolt down the field. I'd send her the rest of the way, and when the sheep were moving down the field she was in persuit. I can see as well where she very well could be too tight at the top (need to work on our distance, she's very nice up to @80 yds) the sheep that I'm working aren't dog broke, but aren't extreamly flighty either. They do know thought where the dog should be, and even the slightest bit over on a flank and they move. Also, I have enough sheep that it's never the same bunch worked together for several days in a row. (learned that when trying to pen/gate work. The same bunch learned that the pen was safer and would go right in. By mixing them up changes the dynamics daily.) I also have been working her in different fields, we have 3 large ones to choose from and a smaller training pen.

 

My only concern with having her flank wider at home to compensate for a trial, is that she could easily loose contact with the stock(when she does this, she dosen't look at the sheep at all, it's just circiling). She used to be VERY tight on her flanks (almost ice cream cone shaped rather that pear, very tight into the stock) I have gotten her out now, and starting to square up now. When I started teaching an out, she was way out on the fence line. Now most people would think that's great, but my fence was about 150 feet from the sheep in any direction! She knew what out ment, but had totally lost her sheep. Part of our problem as well is that she REALLY dosen't like to down. She knows what it means, but between being fast and over steping and not wanting to let the sheep get away she's got to get a few extra steps in to compensate.

[juliepoudrier]

Kim,

Will she stop and stand instead of lie down? If what you really need is a stop and she happens to be one of those dogs who prefers to stand, that might solve some of your problem.

 

J.

[kimkathan]

Julie _

I do have a working stop on her as well (stand on her feet and can move with the balance as needed or a command IE. at the pen) She will do this fine most of the time. What we have problems is the DOWN. She's the kind of dog that needs to down and stop on a lift or turning a cross drive. She's very pushy and builds up momentum. We continue to work on TAKE TIME, and it is coming, but it's been a battle. She's not the kind of dog where you can down her and then walk her on, she just jumps up and keeps on pushing. Instead, we've been stoping with a working stop, take time, repeting and then downing. It seems to be working, just need more time.

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by kimkathan:

I did take her out today and tried the 3 & 9 stop. She'll stop, and the sheep are VERY alert to where she is, but don't bolt down the field. I'd send her the rest of the way, and when the sheep were moving down the field she was in persuit. I can see as well where she very well could be too tight at the top (need to work on our distance, she's very nice up to @80 yds) the sheep that I'm working aren't dog broke, but aren't extreamly flighty either. They do know thought where the dog should be, and even the slightest bit over on a flank and they move. Also, I have enough sheep that it's never the same bunch worked together for several days in a row. (learned that when trying to pen/gate work. The same bunch learned that the pen was safer and would go right in. By mixing them up changes the dynamics daily.) I also have been working her in different fields, we have 3 large ones to choose from and a smaller training pen.

From what you say, this sounds like classic "too close on the outrun". Look at it this way. If sending her the rest of the way from 3 or 9 o'clock puts the sheep into flight mode and the dog into pursuit mode, then you will be helping your dog by not letting that happen. She will be able to think instead of just going on the instinct to stop the sheep. You can probably tell that she is going too tight long before she gets to 3 or 9 o'clock. Stop her then.

 

 

Originally posted by kimkathan:

My only concern with having her flank wider at home to compensate for a trial, is that she could easily loose contact with the stock(when she does this, she dosen't look at the sheep at all, it's just circiling). She used to be VERY tight on her flanks (almost ice cream cone shaped rather that pear, very tight into the stock) I have gotten her out now, and starting to square up now. When I started teaching an out, she was way out on the fence line. Now most people would think that's great, but my fence was about 150 feet from the sheep in any direction! She knew what out ment, but had totally lost her sheep. Part of our problem as well is that she REALLY dosen't like to down. She knows what it means, but between being fast and over steping and not wanting to let the sheep get away she's got to get a few extra steps in to compensate.

I really don't understand this at all, but it's probably just me. When I picture the dog circling, not being in contact with the sheep doesn't compute. She doesn't need to look in at the sheep when she is doing this. She IS in contact, knows just where they are, and doesn't have time to think about what is going on. She is just essentially running wild on instinct. This is a distinctly different situation from being in contact during an outrun by looking in at the sheep, and then the dog adjusting the outrun based on what it sees while doing it. People read Bruce Fogt's book, and Virgil Holland's book, about the difficulty in bringing a too-wide running dog in, and are suddenly gun-shy about widening out a dog. It's really unusual for a dog to run too wide. The opposite is almost always the problem. By the way, I don't think 150 feet off the sheep on the outrun is "off contact". In fact, I think it is very likely too close. 150 feet is only 50 yards, and it would be hard for me to believe the dog would be "off contact" at 50 yards. At that distance, she doesn't NEED to look in to see the sheep. She can see them easily there. It would be interesting to hear what she would do if she had the opportunity to go as far out as she wanted to in a bigger field.

 

Regards

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by kimkathan:

Julie _

She's the kind of dog that needs to down and stop on a lift or turning a cross drive. She's very pushy and builds up momentum. We continue to work on TAKE TIME, and it is coming, but it's been a battle. She's not the kind of dog where you can down her and then walk her on, she just jumps up and keeps on pushing. Instead, we've been stoping with a working stop, take time, repeting and then downing. It seems to be working, just need more time.

You will thank your lucky stars you have a dog like this sometime in the future. This sounds like a dog you will not have to push. It is, in my opinion, far, far better to have to hold a dog back than to have to try to convince it to walk up on sheep. Don't hammer her constantly to slow down and take all the push out of her. It's a balancing act. Congratulations on your good fortune.

 

Regards

[Jennifer Glen]

My two cents... I don't think the orginal suggestion was to make the dog run wider, but infact to make the dog run deeper. It is much easier to get a young dog to stop when they are farther off the sheep. If she doesn't run deep, stop the dog before she turns the corner (around 11 oclock) and make her go deeper. If you are too late, you will make her think she's in trouble for not walking up so the timing must be right. It is tough to train a walk up at the top after you have made the dog too careful. Get the down, like GR said and leave it alone. Don't nag or you will make it worse. You don't need a slow lift, you need a stop. She's too young (I'm assuming she's under two) for a perfect lift where the dog walks up slowly (I think that if they do that too soon you will have a sticky dog later - I know this from experience) but a stop will work just as well. Now getting the stop is your orginal question. If she won't stop at 200 yrds, but she will stop at 25, then you are streatching her out too soon. Go from 25 yrds, to 30 yrds to 35 yrds. Got it? It's not that she won't stop at all so you've just tried to make her do a distance too soon.

Jenny

PS and by the way it is NOT uncommon for a dog to run too wide. It happens all the time as they get older. Get a decent outrun with a young dog but don't push it wide, deep maybe but not wide.

[Jennifer Glen]

I meant to say that when you are making her go deeper, if your timing is off you will make her think she shouldn't lift and that will create a horrible problem.

Jenny

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Jennifer Glen:

PS and by the way it is NOT uncommon for a dog to run too wide. It happens all the time as they get older. Get a decent outrun with a young dog but don't push it wide, deep maybe but not wide.

Jennifer and I will just have to disagree on this. I seldom see a dog run too wide. Perhaps we have different opinions on what "too wide" is. One thing for sure. 50 yards, as stated in one of Kimkathan's posts, is not too wide, and, in general, is not wide enough.

 

Regards

[Pipedream Farm]

GR,

 

Wide running is in some lines of dogs. Perhaps these lines are not common in your region. When training pups from these lines you want to take care to not push them out while they are young or they can run too wide (off contact and not watching their sheep) as they mature. Also the nature of the sheep will dictate how wide is too wide; perhaps the sheep in your region require being farther off than the sheep in other regions. While 50 yards off the sheep common in your region may be too tight; this may be correct on different sheep.

 

Kim,

 

We've have a couple of dogs that would "loose it" when the sheep were heading to the pressure. We worked on teaching them to stay calm while driving sheep towards a closed gate by our shed (the pressure). We worked on pace and staying behind the sheep while driving towards the closed gate; once the sheep got to the gate we would let the dog calmly collect them off the gate. With practice and patience they learned that they could maintain control of the sheep even while the sheep headed towards pressure. The dogs then started to relax on the field while driving or fetching sheep towards pressure.

 

Mark

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

GR,

 

Wide running is in some lines of dogs. Perhaps these lines are not common in your region. When training pups from these lines you want to take care to not push them out while they are young or they can run too wide (off contact and not watching their sheep) as they mature. Also the nature of the sheep will dictate how wide is too wide; perhaps the sheep in your region require being farther off than the sheep in other regions. While 50 yards off the sheep common in your region may be too tight; this may be correct on different sheep.

Oh, I'm aware that some dogs may run too wide, including the tendency to run some wider as they age, but I still contend that it is uncommon. And while 50 yards might be enough on some sheep, I would never train a dog to run that close on his outrun on any sheep. I give these dogs a lot of credit, but that close will come back to haunt you if your aim is to run a dog that can handle any sheep.

 

Regards

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by GR:

Oh, I'm aware that some dogs may run too wide, including the tendency to run some wider as they age, but I still contend that it is uncommon.

Not as uncommon as you wish believe; again this will be regional. I'm with Jenny on this one.

 

Originally posted by GR:

I give these dogs a lot of credit, but that close will come back to haunt you if your aim is to run a dog that can handle any sheep.

To your point, if your goal is to teach a dog to handle any sheep making it run too wide may come back to haunt you. For example if the sheep leave before the dog has a chance to get around because it is too far off. I've seen it happen.

 

Mark

[Jennifer Glen]

I don't even think wide running dogs are regional. I've trialed all over the US from California to Virginia and Canada (both coasts), and I've seen them all over. However, I have NOT trialed in Texas and so I won't comment on that location. Perhaps Mark is on the right path and that the sheep could be keeping the dogs from running wide down there. I know that when you have broke sheep that run in early, if the dog is young, they will cut in but if the dog is experienced, they can start running wider to prevent the sheep from moving before they get there.

Anyway, I don't mean to argue but it's just something that you want to be careful of on a young dog. I know I'm trying to resist the temptation on pushing my 12 month old too wide.

Jenny

[Guest grscott]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

Not as uncommon as you wish believe; again this will be regional. I'm with Jenny on this one.

 

Actually, it's not something I wish to believe. It's based on what I see.

 

 

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

To your point, if your goal is to teach a dog to handle any sheep making it run too wide may come back to haunt you. For example if the sheep leave before the dog has a chance to get around because it is too far off. I've seen it happen.

 

I've seen it happen also. The point is that it seldom happens in the trials or actual work I see, and I'm not sure I buy the regional analysis. Sheep most commonly "leave" early because of pressure from the dog. I've watched runs at Nationals, and too wide/off contact is not common there, either. What is common, in general, is for dogs to run too tight, come in at the top too shallow, and upset the sheep by lifting them too hard, especially in the lower classes. I think it is prudent to train for the most likely situation, unless my dog gives me some indication that an alternate strategy is needed. The dog in question is only 50 yards off the sheep maximum as it does its outrun, as stated by her handler. Tell me what that outrun is going to look like when the dog is running a 200 yard outrun to get to her sheep. 50 yards off at the top will make that outrun look just about like it is straight up the field. As I said before, it will be interesting to hear how her outrun is in a field where she can give the sheep as much space as she wants to.

 

Regards

[kimkathan]

In a large open field, she's quite wide and deeper on the left flank. On the right, she is a bit tighter and not as deep, but is not straight up the field. Depending on which way we are working, a down hill draw, the sheep are moving faster to break for the barn across the road...dog dosen't want to lie down, up hill draw, sheep are slower to move, dog will lie down. I agree that probably a part of the problem is that she is too tight, but she also will get excited and at times(usually flanking) is either going so fast that she over steps in an attempt to stop, or is so fixated with what the sheep are doing, she dosen't listen.]

 

With this insight....

1. Advice on widening out ( have tried stoping and redirecting, only to have her continue on the same path, only bumped out and pulling back in. Also, calling her back. With this, she'll spin around and almost sling shot herself)

2. Lying down (When driving or penning ie, upclose to me she does great. OUr problem is when she's opposite to me)