sticky dog

[wc]

I think you can have a strong eyed dog that has a natural outrun, I've had one, and still have one in this dog I was just asking about. Not only does she have a wonderful wide natural outrun, but she had nice flanks. I think the outrun has more to do with natural ability than eye. I have another strong eyed dog who doesn't have a natural outrun, but she's a driving fool, I've spent many hours working on her outrun, and her flanks, but she doesn't get even close to being sticky either. She just keeps walking on no matter how cross the ewe looks at her, right into the fight zone. Really she seems to love confrontation and contact. And woe to any ewe who tries to charge her as she has a temper too.

Since I seem to have two extremes here, and both being strong eyed, I guess that is why I am so interested in finding out the why's on this stuff.

Besides the fact that it's so darn interesting.

[blackacre]

But, to answer your implied comment, yes I think I caused it by the way I handled him, by either over-handling him or under-handling him. The line was VERY fine, he was a high maintenance dog. If you overdid it, he would become tense and over-excited or, like I say, stall out. If you under-handled him, he would take over and could not be stopped, like riding a freight train straigt tohell.

A.

[wc]

Andrea,

What breeding was your dog? sounds just like the dog I used to have .

[Guest PrairieFire]

Ok, so now we've wandered into the discussion of high-maintenance dogs...this is fun...

 

Everybody know this kind of dog?

 

To be honest, I think many of the great ones were this type of dog, and still are...at least the ones at the International level...dogs that can't be handled by a "mere human", that there are only a handful of men and women in the world that can handle this kind of dog...

 

But it's also the kind of dog that is a wonder to watch, when in the hands of one of those handlers...and a nightmare to most of us...

 

These dogs are MORE than the oft-quoted "ferrari", I think they are more like formula one racers - where again, only a handful of drivers in the world can handle them.

 

Just another comment on strong-eyed dogs turning thier heads - I have one that, essentially, taught himself the head turn to release pressure and also not to be drawn in (he did this before I was smart enough to know to teach him)...

 

By the way, Wendy, you gonna make the Portage cattle and sheep trial in early June? I'm sure your expertise at setting out on the "berm from hell" will be appreciated...

[blackacre]

Originally posted by wc:

Andrea,

What breeding was your dog? sounds just like the dog I used to have .

Hound of Baskervilles.

 

And I agree Bill, some of the greats were just like that, take Wisp for example. You hear all sorts of stories about him. Someone I know calls them "big course" dogs, another "Sunday" dogs, the ones that make it to the final round.

 

All I can say is, they're way too much for me, I'm sticking to Saturday or even Friday night dogs from now on.

 

Andrea

[wc]

Bill,

Im entered, love that hill, and wouldn't miss the girls for the world. Are they running open on that hill again? I'm still debating on the cattle entries, but we'll be running on sheep for sure. I plan on making both Portage trials this year.

[Guest PrairieFire]

Andrea - sometimes I think I'd be just fine with thursday afternoon dogs...

 

Wendy - same hill, same spot. I'm wondering too about running both cattle and sheep concurrently - I can see the luck of the draw putting at least one of my dogs back to back...

[tucknjill]

Hey A,

We talking about the same dog I admired so much at the shedding clinic??? Loved that dog....whistful sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[blackacre]

Hi Sam,

Yup. Taught me humility, that one.

Never mind, the Pissing Puppy is going to Rock the World.

Andrea

[bcollie]

I have a dog that before this discussion I would have referred to as a sticky dog but I think clappy dog would more likely describe him. He has great balance and would never dream of holding sheep to a fence but when there is pressure, say at the turn of the post, he claps down and you have to fight him to get up. I have tried teaching him a stand and can get it on a drive but never at the post or at the pen or at the shed. I have tried being nice, being not so nice, it doesn't seem to make a difference. You couldn't ask for a nicer outrun on a dog, at any distance. And he is great at keeping sheep together. But I would love to figure out how to get through this problem.

 

His other biggest flaw, besides clapping down, is he wants to catch the sheep's eye too much, which is really bad on Rambouillets or that type of sheep. I try to anticipate this and stop him before he gets too far but downing him feeds into his clappy problem. That is part of his being great at keeping sheep together but often impedes forward progress especially on balky ewes at the turn of the post. Not sure if this is the too much eye thing or the control freak thing of keeping them contained. Any suggestions? Everyone keeps telling me to keep him on his feet but how???

 

Thanks

Geri

[Dawn Bailey]

Hi Geri,

 

a couple of top handlers have told me:

 

can you give him a few small flanks to get him up and moving?

 

or teach him to get up and get moving no matter what?

 

have you tried teaching him a stand away from sheep?

 

I am sure you have done all of the above.

 

take care

 

Dawn

[bcollie]

Dawn-

Thanks for the suggestions. The stand and the get up and all the rest work fine except when he locks on. Then a bomb could go off and I don't think it would phase him. A harsh lie down given twice followed by a flank will usually get him up but sometimes you just don't have that much time. He doesn't do this on all sheep - just hard to move sheep in pressure situations.

 

Geri

[tucknjill]

Never fear my dear, that one would have taught anyone of us mortals humility... I am learning a bit myself here lately! Toddie is kickin my arse! Sam

[blackacre]

Sam

I knew you could relate. Can hardly wait to meet Wee Todd.

Hi Geri,

The bandaid solution: sacrifice precision for momentum at the turn. Or: if he sticks when he stops, don't let him stop.

I also recommend the correction method. See above. Set it up in training of course. If he stops when you didn't ask him to or asked for something else, like a time or a flank, go after him.

A.

A.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

Chiming in late on this one, but had to say the only thing that has helped my own sticky dog is just to keep her as tuned up as possible (which I don't anymore) and keeping her moving. She's actually an upright working dog, she has a good down but she will be actually stickier standing up. With her it does seem to be two factors. First of all, she is very pressure sensitive and is so careful about spilling that she is happier just to hold them than to move and risk losing one. We once had a horrible sticky lift (Rhett..walk up Rhett.... Walk UP... RHETT WALK UP... for about 3 minutes) at a cow dog trial and when I saw the tape, I could see why- the three roping steers had no desire to bunch, didn't want to move off well in an arena and were pointed in three different directions. She wanted them on balance, and if that meant staying in one place, that would be it. She rarely tries to hold them off balance from me, they usually are held "on line" but not moving. It is true too about rushing in for a grip, when challenged- this dog who will fearlessly hit the roughest cows straight on the nose to turn them (but never the heel to move them LOL) will stand there FOREVER if you let her get too close to the sheep and they have the good mind to turn their heads away from her. If one tries to break back on her, she will put them back with whatever means necessary and then leave them alone. She is a very quiet dog, and does well on flighty stock, esp. cows, they seem to trust her where they wouldn't trust a dog with more presence. She has done some brilliant cow gathers at big pasture trials, that seems to be her main genius. I don't think she is as sticky as I have let her be, she was my first dog that actually got any coherent training and I think I let her do too much close work when she was young and got mesmerized myself by the stylish/crouch/stick thing she gets going LOL. Her daughter is as loose as you can get, go figure.

[Guest PrairieFire]

Geri -

 

I'd go with the "correction" method as well, if you haven't already, perhaps even using the 4 wheeler (or a horse in your case?) to "wake him up" when he claps down...and try to break him completely of lying down...a correction every time, even when it might be the right thing, unless you tell him...

 

Can you catch him (anticipate him) just before he sets and "hey!" him to keep him paying attention to you...? That's where the little flank might help, issued righ after the "hey" keeps him from setting...

[concrete]

Originally posted by blackacre:

Well, to be really technical about it and to answer Bill's question at the same time, I think you want a strong eyed dog to turn its head right away on the flank and move in a straight line, ie with the hind end in line with the front, rather than have it moving in the requested direction crabwise ie with the front of the dog closer to the sheep than the rear as it flanks. To me the latter indicates that the dog has not broken off contact as required for a square flank. So, again technically, you do NOT want to see the dog doing what Kevin described on the fetch or anywhere else when asked for a flank.

A.

I guess my post wasn't very clear so I'll try again. I'm agreeing with you Andrea that perfectly square flanks , or more importantly the dog breaking contact while flanking( I call this releasing pressure), are the key to freeing up a dog with a lot of eye. I've also noticed that while flanking a dog will learn to turn it's nose away from the sheep while still holding on to pressure( or keeping contact). That's why I keep an eye on the dog's inside shoulder because the slice starts when the dog dips that shoulder. That's when I want to correct the dog.

However Andrea. Why wouldn't you want a dog on contact, controlling line and pace with just it's nose on the fetch and drive?

 

Bill said:

Thinking about this, do you think strong eyed dogs "follow where thier nose is pointed" more than other dogs - and is this what we are trying to modify?

So thinking about it more, Bill , I think the dog will learn not to follow it's nose while still maintaining contact in an attempt to keep contact with the sheep and get you off it's back. So no that is not the behavior we are trying to modify it's the behavior of holding thet contact with the sheep at all cost that we need to modify.

 

I hope this post makes better sense. I'm pretty much bored silly. With all this snow I can't work or play with the dogs or the horses and I'm trying to entertain myself with the internet.

 

Kevin Brannon

[blackacre]

I agree totally Kevin, well said.

However, I do think that a dog with a lot of eye, especially a young one, is prone to getting sucked into the zone too far and so will come to a point where it will be reluctant to release pressure while staying in contact. Back to what I was saying about re-engaging at a less than optimum pont. A more experienced dog will not have this problem. I would also suggest that it is imperative to teach this type of dog a "keep" and an "away". There are going to be times when you need to break the dog off totally, say at a drive panel or to do a turn back.

I think it was you Kevin that mentioned you wondered if your dog was weak because of the way it came in at the top but realized that it was the eye that was doing it. A friend of mine has a tremendous dog whose only fault is its outrun and lift. It will actually come in BELOW the sheep but somehow will manage to lift them straight on line. As soon as they lift, he will slip in behind the sheep and then keep them dead on line. I've held for him many times and he really does this. I should add that this happens even when the pressure is straight downwind. I think what he is doing is holding them there until he can get into position to fetch, rather than giving them a lot of leeway in the latter part of the outrun as a naturally outrunning dog will do.

And, as you will gather from my frequent posts, I too am desperate for my fix of dog talk. We haven't been able to work dogs here for weeks. I don't even own a strong eyed dog at the moment. Boo hoo, living in Canada.

By the way Geri, I just thought of another handling tip I learned. I think of it as the "Z". If your dog is stalled out, give it two quick alternating flanks in succession, followed by a walkup: "flank, flank, WALK UP." Works best by way of whistle. For this one you actually want the dog to cut its flanks, it's no damn good if it's flanking back and forth on a line in front of the sheep's noses. I would practice this on the drive with the sheep moving at a smart clip and then transfer this to the situation where you need it, like at the post.

Andrea

[bcollie]

Thanks for the advice. I will try it today when I get a chance to go work him. He used to stick at the top but doesn't do that anymore (knock on wood). Now it is mostly close at hand. He was a bit afraid of people when I got him so I have been afraid of using harsh corections but I think he has probably been playing me.

 

I used to realize that the turn at the post problem was him catching their eye but I think I kind of forgot it. The best help I ever got was from George Grist at a trial at Porterville. The first day we stalled out at the turn and had to quit. The next morning before our run he took me aside and told me I was letting Ted catch their eye and that is what was stalling them. I knew on the drive or the fetch not to let him do this but I hadn't thought about it at the turn. I paid strict attention to it that day and placed 2nd. Guess I am rusty since my last trial was in October. Thanks for the help in rethinking these things!

 

Geri

[cgt]

I have a dog that is a little "sticky", where her eye can lock her up, or inhibit her flanks in certain circumstances. I recently had a lesson with Derek Fisher and the first thing that happened was that I sent the dog out to pick some sheep off of a distant fence and as she got up to the fence, she turned in and tried to eye them off of the fence (without actually moving to get between the sheep and fence). She wouldn't take a flank to move the sheep off of the fence. Derek had me try a little drill with her that has seemed to help to loosen her up some (though I have just started using it, and I just don't have the timing to do it like he did).

 

He simply had me get near the sheep and have the dog flank around them, calling her in if necessary to keep her just in contact. Of course, I had to encourage her to keep flanking as she passes the point of balance. No big deal, right? This dog is 5 and pretty fully trained (not by me), so she thought I was silly to make her do this elementary drill. But as the dog comes around off balance to my side of the sheep he also had me step toward her a little. This made her either want to reverse and go back to balance, or move out of contact, or just turn in and lock up. Then my job was to really encourage her to stay in contact and keep flanking. A few of these exercises, in both directions, followed by a little fetch to relieve the tension and we quit that drill.

 

I don't really get it, and I may not be explaining it quite right, but it did seem to make her less prone to locking in and not flanking. She certainly was more "pliable" in sticky situations thereafter. In particular, the next fence pick up was perfect.

 

(We also discussed the "correct the dog for locking up" strategy, which I have heard from more than one top handler as the thing to do if the sticky dog doesn't change it's tune when using the "encourage the dog to keep moving" strategy. )

 

Anyway, I can imagine that this drill can be overdone, and, like most training strategies, one size does not fit all. Also: Beware of novice handlers dispensing advice, second-hand.

 

charlie

[NancyO]

Inci wrote "then I went to Bobby Dalziel's clinic and saw an 80 ft one. Believe me,I went and got a 100 ft., so much easier to catch and correct."

 

Hi Inci, I also went to one of Bobby's clinic and he did wonders with my 10 month old that wouldn't go around his sheep and used the rope. Other 2 dogs didn't require the rope at all. Went home and got a 30 foot thin rope, worked great until.... called the pup off, picked up the rope, pup actually came off with me, but he went around a post that was nearby in the field making the rope taut, no problem you say, except one of the sheep decided to run between the pup and me in ths same direction we were going, and ran into the line! Sheep backed up and jumped the line and went to bottom of field. Didn't think much about it except, what a dumb sheep to run the opposite way of the group and between me and the dog. Well my daughter yells up to me that sheep is bleeding, I tell her *#%# thing just ran into a line. Well turns out sheep had cut it's upper front leg and severed an artery, blood was pulsing out. Thinking we would have to put the sheep down, but not having anything available, put the gambrel restrainer on and tied off the artery(could only find one piece of it) pushed it back into the wound, closed the wound, cleaned the wound, gave a shot of antibiotics and put it in the shed, which he immediately tried to jump the 5 foot door so but some buddies in with him. Thought the next day leg would be black, and we would put the sheep down, but sheep recoverd completely and still will jump things! So be careful of those thin lines, I had been using climbing rope which had a much larger diameter than what Bobby used.

Nancy Obernier

[Guest PrairieFire]

"I think the dog will learn not to follow it's nose while still maintaining contact in an attempt to keep contact with the sheep and get you off it's back."

 

Interesting, Kevin, and while I haven't seen that with the dog I currently have (he's so bloody biddable and honest I don't think it would ever occur to him to try to cheat me that way), I'll be interested in watching other dogs and see how that works...I think this could lead us into a discussion of "honest" dogs (who maybe "understand" releasing pressure) vs. "keener" (not dishonest necessarily, but more reluctant to lose contact)dogs...

 

I think this is where you get "strong-eyed" dogs that are not necessarily "sticky" - but can be handled to make them so - and are not necessarily "strong" dogs...

 

And you get "clappy" dogs that are more or less "pressure sensitive"...particularly on various stages of the work...

 

Andrea - it was great here yesterday, high in the mid 40's and had me thinking of spring - unfortunately, it's now below freezing and all those rivulets of melting stuff are glare ice skating rinks - so we are worse off than we were before the mini-thaw...so I'm quite enjoying the dog talk as well...

[blackacre]

Andrea - it was great here yesterday, high in the mid 40's and had me thinking of spring - unfortunately, it's now below freezing and all those rivulets of melting stuff are glare ice skating rinks - so we are worse off than we were before the mini-thaw...so I'm quite enjoying the dog talk as well... [/QB]

Hi guys,

Checking in for a second of diversion. We had nice weather yesterday and today too. Tomorrow however they are calling for freezing rain. So much for my fantasy of working the dogs tomorrow.

Nancy O, as I live and breathe!

Personally, I don't like to use a long line for anything. Just a personal preference I guess. I'd rather find a way to communicate with the dog that doesn't involve manual restraint or correction. However, one of my friends did go to that clinic and raved about the concept, so maybe I'm due for a reassessment.

Bill, I wouldn't describe an honest dog as a biddable one. Back to defining terms, we should start a dictionary. It's kind of like a bunch of blind guys trying to describe an elephant, isn't it? Eventually, you can end up with a pretty good description if you put everyone's observations together and refine it. Anyway, to me a honest dog is one that you can trust not to screw you if left to its own devices or perhaps if it is not handled just so. For example, my Cap grandson, otherwise only a so-so dog, would NEVER do anything but a perfect outrun ending at the perfect lift point (I speculate this is a characteristic of the Bwlch Taff lineage, by the way). So, in that respect he is a really honest dog. It would never occur to me that he would cross his course and I wouldn't be watching for it. In other words, trustworthy.

Thoughts?

And then there's "power" and "heart". Whoeee, we got a ways to go here. Watch out OED.

I'll check in later,

Andrea

[Guest PrairieFire]

Oh, sorry, Andrea, didn't mean to give the impression I was saying honest and biddable were the same thing - the strong-eyed dog I was referring directly to is BOTH honest and biddable...

 

Honest - he won't cheat me, ever.

 

Biddable - if I mean him to come off pressure, for example, he will do that with little or no argument.

 

Yet he is at the same time a very keen dog.

 

This same dog has never done a bad outrun - I hadn't thought of that until someone pointed it out - so I "trust" his outrun...is trustworthy the same as honest, I'm not so sure...

[blackacre]

Originally posted by PrairieFire:

. . the strong-eyed dog I was referring directly to is BOTH honest and biddable...

 

Honest - he won't cheat me, ever.

 

Biddable - if I mean him to come off pressure, for example, he will do that with little or no argument.

 

Yet he is at the same time a very keen dog..

Hah! I don't think I want to hear any more.

Back to my Thursday aft. dogs,

A.