Training for the Farm vs. the Trial

[dracina]

Is there a difference in training a dog for trialing versus training a dog for farm work? I know that some people do one or the other; and possibly most do both. But is there a difference in training? I think that trialing requires more precision, but I am not really certain.

 

I guess that another question could then be: do you find that a great trial dog is equally effective on a daily basis as a farm worker, or conversely, can a great farm dog be effective on the trial field?

 

I know that it is difficult to answer the question with any real certainty, because each dog will be different. But I am curious after thinking about this idea over the last week.

 

Karrin

[Sue R]

In the UK, where many top handlers are also full-time farmers or shepherds (or have a family background in farming and shepherding), there are top trial dogs that are truly working dogs on the farm or hill. In North America, there are not so many dogs that have the background in a real-world, large-scale farming or ranching operation, but often are worked on smaller, "hobby-scale" farms.

 

As for training, some folks adhere to the concept that if you can train a dog to be precise on the trial field, then you can handle that same dog precisely in the farm field, and that that will be to your benefit in your stockwork. Others feel that a farm dog needs to be more of an independent thinker, and many dogs that are very effective on the farm or ranch, may not have the precision that wins on the trial field.

 

To me, the value of my dogs is on the farm, although I would certainly like to be able to train them to be successful Open dogs on the trial field, if I was able and they were capable.

 

JMHO

[stockdogranch]

I'll be anxious to see what kind of responses you get on this one--good question. I have always believed in training up a dog to just do the work, and to do it properly. If your dog is trained to just work livestock, you should be pretty good to get around a trial course. Many people do think that a trial dog is more "precise," but I believe that is only the case if you allow your dog to do sloppy work at home.

 

I think there are way too many people who only work their dog around a trial course and have never done any "real work" with their dog. The dogs learn so much from everyday chores with stock; all the better if you can work different stock as often as possible. That's where they gain the experience necessary to be able to handle all sorts of different situations, and to think for themselves without being told every little flank to take. When you are really relying on your dog to help you get a job done, you really learn to function as a team. Ten minutes around a trial course one or two weekends a month just isn't enough, nor is running the same course over and over again (let's face it--a sheep course is the same, just a different field and different stock) at home to practice.

 

I think the biggest difference is pressure--a trial dog has to withstand a lot more pressure--traveling all over, different stock and different field, maybe an announcer on a loudspeaker, the handler's anxiety, etc.

 

Off of soapbox,

A

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

A farm dog trained right is, in my view, going to excel at both practical and competitive work. I've done almost exclusively farm work and I've found that the better trained the dog is (and better equipped genetically), the more useful the dog is. Sometimes it's a learning curve getting the most out of such a dog (as in the case of a novice who purchases a fully trained dog and is disappointed when it's not a "point and shoot" sort of thing), but it's always worth it.

 

I know a cattle farmer who puts a good bit of training in her youngsters with absolutely no intention of trialing. But when she's done, her dogs are fully capable of running a full nursery course - on sheep! Not to mention cattle. But she really isn't into trialing. But she knows that the basics done right is what saves steps. And coincidently (or not? Hmmm!) the ISDS-type trial tests those basics to the max.

 

This is why I've enjoyed Denise's videos so much, by the way.

[dracina]

See, now as someone who knows nothing, I believe that what Sue, Becca, and Anna have said is perfectly reasonable and logical. The whole reason behind trialing is to show off the work, and the trial came about because of the farm work.

 

I guess that I should add this: the reason I am curious is because when looking for a trainer, every single one has asked me, "So, do you want to trial, or do you want to train your dog for work?" Maybe that is just a question that comes up because of my region (Chicago, where there are no farms), or maybe it is something that all newbies are asked?

 

Additionally, I worked with someone who also ONLY trialed, and kept the sheep for training purposes only.

These two things have given me the idea that there are two different ways of training.

 

Karrin

[bcnewe2]

I think Anna's answer was a good one, same with the rest but...

 

Additionally, I worked with someone who also ONLY trialed, and kept the sheep for training purposes only.

 

I wonder how that is done. OK if you only have 5 acres and 5 or so sheep I could see that. But when I started I had 5 sheep and 5 acres. quickly became commited to the sheep so the numbers went up, moved to more land and the numbers went up more over the years.

 

You could say I used them for training but they still needed management, I had to get through lambing, and so on. So unless it's a small place and few sheep, I just don't see how you could only use them for trialing.

I didn't/don't make any money so to speak on my sheep, not when you add up fencing and whatnot but had it not been for the dogs, I wouldn't have started with the sheep.

 

Now I will add, that until I got more land, I didn't understand what it was to "need" a dog. but you wouldn't have convinced me of that till I had more land. So in that sence maybe I understand what keeping sheep for training purposes are.

My passion for sheep quickly grew as much as my love for the dogs.

I'd say it's all in the numbers and the situation.

And add that training like Anna mentioned is hard to start with as you don't know what sloppy chore work is. Or I didn't. Not untill I could get out and see things done right. But again, at an early stage, I don't think I knew what right vs. sloppy was and sometimes find myself muddling through things wondering if I'm doing it right still.

 

I do understand the question but I don't like to hear people get bashed when they say they bought their sheep for the dogs. So what, if it gets you into the wonderful world of sheep and you grow to respect and care for sheep, what's the difference.

 

Can I add a question to this thread...

How many on this board started with livestock first and added dogs later?

Just curious.

I wonder why every trainer has asked you that too. I can guess but who knows if I'd be right.

 

eta...I watched all of Denise's videos last night, they were amazingly wonderful and if you have questions, you could get a lot of answers off them. I'd love to see more vid's of Diane's with green dogs to see more what she's doing. but the videos that she did, were just super and btw...so is May! Thanks for doing such wonderful work on the field and with the videos!

[Liz P]

I've wanted a farm with sheep and cattle since I was a little kid, but my parents only allowed me to have the BCs. I didn't even know what BCs were until my Mom bought me one when I was a teenager. I guess in a convoluted way the sheep came first, but my push to save up and buy a farm ASAP is accelerated by already having the BCs. Does that make any sense at all?

 

When I started with BCs all I did was train for trials, but then I started to enjoy the work and seek out farms without dogs where I could help out. I found that to be much more rewarding than training, and the dogs liked it better too.

[Lenajo]

just about any semi- decently trained working dog can do farmwork. It takes much more, as already described, to take it to quality trial level. Most good trial dogs are good farm dogs. A well trained dog (open trial standard) makes farm work easy. Once you're there you just about can't stand anything else.

 

However.... I think the farm dog can benefit from the work only if his handler makes sure the work done is held ot a high standards. Sometimes when you're tired and in a hurry, it's easy to let things go by that you shouldn't. Overall the shepherds we speak of with awe who used their dogs for both work and trial were exacting and determined trainers 24/7

 

The opposite is a lot of trial dogs would benefit from the chance to think and do real work on the farm. They need their handler to get off their back and let them learn.

 

The question Dracina, often comes about because most farmers (particularily American ones imo, but that could just be my experience level) only want a dog that will go around, fetch, and STOP. Others only want a dog that will drive and STOP. That's it. It's a different mentality that requires a different approach from the trainer.

[dracina]

I do understand the question but I don't like to hear people get bashed when they say they bought their sheep for the dogs. So what, if it gets you into the wonderful world of sheep and you grow to respect and care for sheep, what's the difference.

 

Can I add a question to this thread...

How many on this board started with livestock first and added dogs later?

Just curious.

I wonder why every trainer has asked you that too. I can guess but who knows if I'd be right.

 

eta...I watched all of Denise's videos last night, they were amazingly wonderful and if you have questions, you could get a lot of answers off them. I'd love to see more vid's of Diane's with green dogs to see more what she's doing. but the videos that she did, were just super and btw...so is May! Thanks for doing such wonderful work on the field and with the videos!

 

That is a good question to add, Kristin. In my opinion, to get the livestock first might be thought of by some-not all- as a bit backwards. I think that if you think of the dog as part of the management of the farm, then why would you not have that in place and trained up first? But, again, that is just me. We are preparing to get sheep, but the dogs came first. I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of sheep way out and two untrained dogs that can't bring them in! I am not bashing anyone, because it could've gone either way for me- but I am just saying that dogs first is better for me. I guess it also depends on why one gets the sheep in the first place: we will need them for dairy. Also, the person I worked with did have only a few sheep, and less than five acres. The sheep were not raised for dairy, meat, or wool.

 

Please remember that I am trying to learn. I do have an opinion, but it means very little compared to those who are actually working with their dogs. I am weird: I like to know a lot about everything. So please bear with me, and I appreciate the answers.

 

Also, I would love to know why you think every trainer asked the question about trialing vs. work? I did watch the videos of May, and they are great.

 

Karrin

 

ETA: Another disclaimer: I sit on my couch and can see the Chicago skyline, with no farms for many, many, miles. If I was actually working my dogs, I would probably be able to figure these things out through doing. But, right now I can't, so I have to ask here if I want to know the answer.

[mjk05]

I think that if you think of the dog as part of the management of the farm, then why would you not have that in place and trained up first? But, again, that is just me. We are preparing to get sheep, but the dogs came first.

For most people who do that, I'd suggest they have the livestock first because that's how they make their income.

Traditionally, the dogs only existed because people were trying to farm for a living, and the dogs were primarily a tool to make that work easier. That is still the situation for many people with working dogs. That's also why, in places like the UK, Australia/NZ and I'm sure some areas of the US, there's a big market for trained dogs. Farmers usually inherit a family farm, maybe come home from ag school to run it, or buy a working farm as a career, and don't have the luxury of spending 6 months going to herding classes with a new dog before they start actually running their property.

 

Re the OP- I agree with PPs that trialling requires more precision and responsiveness to commands, while farmwork might require more ability to work unsupervised and independently. There are a few things that need different work for everyday farm stuff, and if you don't approach it properly, I think dogs can learn bad habits from farmwork. Some fairly successful trial dogs apparently don't make great farm dogs, either. I've heard and read that some softer, weaker types of dogs can do reasonably well at trials, while pushier, tougher sorts of dogs are great on farms but harder to succeed with on the trial ground. But good dogs well trained seem to adapt to both situations and work differently accordingly. Not that I have any of those, but I have seen other people's dogs do both really well...

 

One thing that is different for farmwork is the mechanics of working a bigger mob. On small groups of sheep (maybe a hundred or less) a dog can flank squarer and still shift them, and of course on a few sheep a dog needs to stay out on flanks- but on a bigger mob, a slicing flank can actually be really useful. I took one dog with natural squarish flanks out the other day to move a mob of maybe 800, and had a lot of trouble steering them because he stayed out on his flanks, and then when he stopped and came in, the sides of the mob would slide away. A dog that knew to slice a flank in certain situations wouldn't have had much trouble. Some of our dogs do that well at home and then can flank cleanly at trials, but others don't. Straight walk-ups behind sheep vs. wearing is another example. We don't often have to move less than a few hundred sheep at a time, so those mob skills get more use at home.

 

Another skill useful for farm dogs is catching a single- we have a pair of dogs that will work out one sheep and throw it and hold it, which is incredibly useful for inspecting and treating individual sheep for flystrike or similar, but obviously isn't something you need for any sort of trialling. They both trial reasonably successfully anyway.

 

People say that farmwork can make some great trial dogs (gives dogs experience, sheep sense and skills they wouldn't otherwise have), and I'm sure that's true in the right hands, but for me, it's been hard to avoid working dogs in the wrong way in the wrong situation, and they probably have learnt a lot of bad habits that won't help at trials.

[bcnewe2]

I guess I didn't word my question right.

the reason I asked was this

I got my dog first. Then found out about working her. Then fell in love with sheep so bought the farm. I was raised around a family farm where they had bc's but didn't use them for work. I don't know that my great uncle knew what he had in his dogs. He was sort of a collector of dogs, horses, cattle, hogs and anything else but not sheep. So my first experience with sheep was with the dogs. Not exactly a farm person first. Always knew I wanted to live out in the country but not the dream that I have now.

 

I agree with Lenajo and why they ask you but I also feel there is a prejudice when it comes to hobby herding (not that I don't feel it a little bit but it doesn't bother me like some) Some people want to train their dog for weekend warrior stuff. If it's done with respect and care I don't really see an issue, but I also agree that until you get out working on a farm and let your dog really work you really don't get what this art is all about.

 

I had a friend who came down to AR for a week to visit. she had only "trained" her dog, never working her dog in a farm situation. well after the week went by she was amazed at what her dog could do. It really came down to letting the dog work and not training. One evening I was tired and the sheep had gotten out to the neighbors field back though my woods and under a fence. I sent her to bring them in. I stayed back at the house. She carried her phone in case she needed me. It took her about an hour before she got back. It was hard for me to let her out there without going to check on her. She still talks about the day her dog became a stock dog. Up to that time, she had never trusted her dog or their partnership. Bad fencing and escaped sheep will bring that to light.

 

I think trainers ask you about what you want to do for more than one reason. Yes it's easier to train a farm dog, but it also says something about a person and the respect they have for the sheep and farm life as a whole if they are training a whole dog.

I know lots of farmers that train like Lenajo says, only a driving dog or one to just round up the cows but if they were exposed to how much a dog can make their life easier they'd want more, I'm sure of it!

 

I recently met the neighboring farmhand. He saw me sittin outside with Mick grazing the sheep. He was inquiring about my dogs and if I trained them. I said yes that it was my passion. He was surprised that we did so much using dogs, all he wanted was a dog that could drive the cows. I asked wouldn't it be tons easier if he could stay at the gate or top of the mountain and send the dog without going with, he just looked at me dumbfounded like he'd never thought about that before or that it wasn't something that a dog could do.

 

He's coming back when his pup grows up, he's all geared up to learn what these dogs can do. I was just excited that I found someone close to work dogs with. Can't wait to get fencing done....hopefully it'll be soon! And I also hope he's got a decent dog. He says he got a bc down by Hotchkiss where I've seen some nice dogs coming out of.

The dog of choice in this area seems to be Aussies. I haven't really seen one doing real work but would like to. they don't look like the foofoo kind.

 

It makes me sad when I drive into town and see all the dogs riding in the back of pickups. Maybe it's just rural life around here but my dogs choose to ride inside the car or truck not in the back loose. Spoiled rotten dogs that they are!

 

I think it's great that you are gathering information like you are. It will save you countless hours of remedial work later. I didn't know any better when I started, I had no idea about USBCHA or ACK or anything. It took me a lot of extra years to find the right people to help. But it didn't matter, I fell in love with the sheep and my amazing half a work dog and the rest is history.

 

Sorry guess I was babbling

[Wendy V]

Another skill useful for farm dogs is catching a single- we have a pair of dogs that will work out one sheep and throw it and hold it, which is incredibly useful for inspecting and treating individual sheep for flystrike or similar, but obviously isn't something you need for any sort of trialling.

 

I would love to know how to teach a dog how to do this. I just finished my first season of lambing on pasture, and it opened my eyes to which skills are lacking in my dogs. MJK05, if you could point me to some resources, it would much be appreciated.

 

To the OP, you are probably being asked what your training goals are in order for the trainer to focus on specific behaviors that will useful in reaching your goal.

[mjk05]

I would love to know how to teach a dog how to do this. I just finished my first season of lambing on pasture, and it opened my eyes to which skills are lacking in my dogs. MJK05, if you could point me to some resources, it would much be appreciated.

Me too! Sorry, I have no idea- the two dogs in question belong to my other half, and I don't know how he trained it. I was just thinking that he's going to be in trouble in a few years, because those dogs are getting on a bit now and the one young dog he has recently trained to catch a single is up for sale now. I guess he'll have to find another one and train it, so I'll watch carefully and let you know. I have a feeling that if I ask him it'll be one of those things "they just figure out with farm work".

[Pam Wolf]

The question Dracina, often comes about because most farmers (particularily American ones imo, but that could just be my experience level) only want a dog that will go around, fetch, and STOP. Others only want a dog that will drive and STOP. That's it. It's a different mentality that requires a different approach from the trainer.

 

I would be happy to work with a farmer that wanted more than to constantly work a dog on a long chain (yes, not even a rope!) Or more than to watch a gate only

 

Most of the farmers I know, IF they have dogs don't even bother training them at all.

[Caroline Reichard]

I have had dogs on my farm for about a decade and have prided myself on training them as well as I possibly could. I work hard at it and have done the best I know.

 

When I brought my two year old dog out for lessons with trial folks, I thought he had a good, solid foundation, and he did. He is a team player and fun to handle. He runs out hundreds of yards, drives happily, will gather sheep and bring them on his own with me out of sight, holds sheep in the pens and, when a lame ewe and her lamb needed to be seperated out from a big flock: well, we could do that job out in the field, even if the ewe did hide in the center of the flock. That's a useful dog on the farm.

 

I am learning, though, that we are going to have to be capable of much, much more if we want to trial successfully . The training we are now doing amounts to a difference in kind from what I did with him earlier. It's requiring much, much more precision and very crisp obedience. I'm going to need Jim to be flexible and accept the unexepeceted. And I'll need to train for situations in which we are under a lot of pressure yet still able to perform well.

 

From where I stand (not yet on the Open Mountain and wondering how to climb it), the training of a good farm dog seems to give the foundational skills that I need to trial. But if I want to trial, I'll need to develop a lot more precision, polish and tuning. I'll need a big vocabulary for very specific communication with my dog. And we'll need to be able to do our thing on new sheep, in a strange field, in front of educated spectators.

 

If I talk about this any more I am going to get a stomachache.

[bill virginia]

Is there a difference in training a dog for trialing versus training a dog for farm work? I know that some people do one or the other; and possibly most do both. But is there a difference in training? I think that trialing requires more precision, but I am not really certain.

 

I guess that another question could then be: do you find that a great trial dog is equally effective on a daily basis as a farm worker, or conversely, can a great farm dog be effective on the trial field?

 

I know that it is difficult to answer the question with any real certainty, because each dog will be different. But I am curious after thinking about this idea over the last week.

 

Karrin

 

i once own a sheep farm and i gained a great deal of respect for my BC's and the work they could do. i trialled in the 80"s but never came close to winning. That was okay because i had farm dogs that did what was needed to do. i sold my farm and retired and took my BC's to Virginia. My love for herding and BC's never left me, so in 2006 i talked my wife into get a BC. that was the first of three. i work them with goats or sheep just for fun. i guess it is time to meet my BCs.

 

 

Angus is a rescue dog that has a rare disease, diabetes insipitus. His pituitary gland tells him to consume large quantities of water and his kidney then must expel the water. Unfortunately, this condition does not allow him to stay indoors over night.

 

Rocky came from Texas with heart worm and almost died. His body was covered with massive amount of ticks.

 

Zac was found running wild with substantial amount of burn marks around his neck. The pound contacted a service group and told them they were going to put him to sleep in one hour and if they wanted him to come down immediately. When Zac came here he had uncontrollable diarrhea and very serious personal problems.

 

Rocky and Zac have turned into top notch sheep herding dogs. Angus is our be loved pet.

 

So the next time you hear someone say, “Oh that‘s just a dog”, smile because they just don’t understand. To them, he is a dog, but to me he is my adopted son who happens to be short, hairy, walks on all fours and does not speak too clearly.

 

PS: if your dog is fat, you aren’t getting enough exercise.

 

 

bill

[abcollie]

I got into dogs because I raised calves for a living and needed a dog (Sometimes ... think I shouldn't have bought a dog ... but spent the money on having my "head examined"instead :~).

 

So, I came into the "sport" with a work dog AND soon found out that if I wanted to trial I better "polish" that work dog or stay home. However, I still think the best way to train a dog is train him for "the work" and then polish him up for trials.

 

An example: I have a yearling that I am working ... that I hope will make a trial dog (notice I said HOPE). He seems to have all the "indgrents" to move up to trialing but right now I'm teaching him how to MOVE stock. The other day we were shoving 60 or so sheep through an opening they didn't want to to through. He was flanking back and forth and it wasn't working (I didn't tell him anything except "get up"). You could see him trying to figure out HOW to get them through and finally he stopped flanking and started heeling them ... THEY moved. Now, will I need this on the trial field (not unless I want to get DQ'ed :~) BUT I will need his ability to figure out a problem and SOLVE it without me. So, I need his mind (not so much the gripping :~) knowing that he CAN move sheep. If I get DQ'ed at a trial ... I would rather have that than have to walk up the field and "help him" (although I would do that rather than have the sheep "beat" him).

 

So, what I'm saying is I think a great trial dog ... UNDERSTANDS stock. How to make them move ... when to push, when NOT to push (ewes with lambs) and the only way to "get there" is by letting them work stock and THEN learn how to be handled while working stock.

[dracina]

I would love to know how to teach a dog how to do this. I just finished my first season of lambing on pasture, and it opened my eyes to which skills are lacking in my dogs. MJK05, if you could point me to some resources, it would much be appreciated.

 

Wendy V. and mjk05, I think that Denise shows some sorting and holding of a single in her "May at 22 mos." video. I am not sure if that is the skill to which you refer, but Denise gives some nice commentary on how she helps May achieve this.

 

I think that what everyone is saying is that a good trial dog might be trained to acquire a wider range of skills, but may not have the ability to think as independently as the farm dog? And farm dogs without proper training (and I think Pam said some farmers don't even bother to train their dogs), develop bad habits that can't carry-over successfully to the trial field. I see what Wendy (Lenajo) and Kristin are saying about American farmers, and that they ask for only a limited amount from their dogs. I wonder why that is.

 

The points made about the trained dogs without farm work are excellent. Maybe what I should do in the meantime is find a trainer, and after awhile also try to find a farm without dogs that needs some work done, like Liz P. did. I wonder if that is possible around here- I will have to look into it.

 

Karrin

[dracina]

So, what I'm saying is I think a great trial dog ... UNDERSTANDS stock. How to make them move ... when to push, when NOT to push (ewes with lambs) and the only way to "get there" is by letting them work stock and THEN learn how to be handled while working stock.

 

Excellent point- thank you!

[mjk05]

Wendy V. and mjk05, I think that Denise shows some sorting and holding of a single in her "May at 22 mos." video. I am not sure if that is the skill to which you refer

I'm not sure about Wendy, but not really- I was talking about singling one sheep out, and then usually throwing it and holding it. Some of the same sort of work as shedding/singling, but usually done a bit differently- ideally the dogs can just single that indicated one off, rather than work with the handler to shed off most of the mob, so the handler can be doing something else while the dogs get the sheep, and then they either block it up until it just stands, or often they will hock or hold the nose and pull the sheep down. They don't have to do it very often, but it's a very handy skill for a farm dog.

 

I see what Wendy (Lenajo) and Kristin are saying about American farmers, and that they ask for only a limited amount from their dogs. I wonder why that is.

I don't know anything about American farmers, but from an Australian perspective, it's possibly because they really don't need much more, and some of the things tested in trials aren't really necessary for some types of farming. Someone earlier mentioned discussing with a farmer how much easier it might be to stand at the gate and let the dog go and drive the cattle where he wanted- that's not really something that's more efficient in some large scale farming set-ups. Yes, a dog could do it, but generally for a big mob you need more than one dog, and if you don't have two or three fully trained dogs, you're much smarter to just go out there on your motorbike and hold one side of the mob while the dog holds the other, and then you get to the yards with your dog relatively fresh. Having a dog that can control and position a small number of sheep on distant command is great, but not really necessary, and most commercial farmers wouldn't use it.

 

We do send dogs out to muster and bring in mobs while we do other things, and we do sometimes drive smaller mobs and play around with jobs to give the dogs a workout, because we're interested in dogs and training, but the bare necessities of a farm (paddock) dog are a cast, fetch on a big mob, a stop and sides (although lots of farmers don't really care about that, they just want the dog to get around the sheep well).

[Wendy V]

I was talking about singling one sheep out, and then usually throwing it and holding it.

 

Yes, this is what I mean. I have a whole lot to learn about how to use a dog in a pasture lambing system.

[juliepoudrier]

In answer to Kristen's question, I had the dogs first and then the stock. I was raised on a farm, but we never used dogs for farm work. So I came from a farm background, but didn't have stock when I got my first border collie. It wasn't a great leap for me to go back to owning stock once my work and living situation made it possible to do so.

 

As for farm work vs. trial work, my best open trial dog is also my main hand at home. I think you can get away with sloppy work at home that would kill you at a trial, and I'll admit that there have been times when I have been guilty of being in a hurry and just letting whatever dog I'm using get away with doing the expedient thing rather than the absolutely correct thing, but in general I try to require excellent work in the home situation--the real work, not just practice--so that the dog doesn't get sloppy, which will come back to bite me in the a$$ at a trial.

 

As I've said here many times before, I am a great believer in practical work being the foundation for training a dog. I hate drilling and won't do it. I don't train courses. I don't have a freestanding pen, nor is there a single panel in any of my fields. I do have a chute I play with on occasion. I have a young dog who was hesitant driving. His job this past winter was to push the entire flock off the feed bunks by himself. He wasn't just allowed to hold them back; he had to push them all the way up the field, and sometimes he had to sort the hair sheep off at a distance while I was tipping dirt out of bunks and dumping feed (of course I was directing him for the sorting work; I just wasn't right at hand to help him). He learned the job and gained all the confidence he could need to drive sheep around an open course.

 

To me, plenty of practical work is the key to creating a dog with a good foundation to be able to do well on the trial field. You just can't allow the practical work to be sloppy. I see a lot of dogs at trials who do a lot of course practice at home, and if anything goes wrong on the trial field, they often don't have the skills to fix it. They haven't been taught to think and actually *work* and *feel* the stock, and it shows. I agree with the other posters who have said that often someone looking for a dog for farm work just wants a dog who can perform some specific tasks and doesn't necessarily want a dog with all the "bells and whistles."

 

Wendy,

As for taking down a single for the handler, the one person whose dogs I've seen do this is Kate Broadbent. If you have a means of contacting her, she might be able to give you some advice on that.

 

J.

[Lana]

The only thing i would add to what Candy and mjk5 said..so well... is that most people have no idea what endurance it takes to work large mobs of sheep or cattle.

 

You can say that a trial dog can do a days work, but unless you have seen one work 14 hours with little water, with pads burned off to blood...and then climb out a truck window at the end of that day to KEEP working..and then go back the next day and do it again... you just don't have an appreciation for the fact that heart and toughness are not the same on a day like that as they are for 12 minutes on the toughest trial course...

 

I did not know this until 2 years ago and it changed forever how i view the dogs. Making a substanial portion of our income from the sheep in the last 2 years has also changed a view or two of mine......

 

Not saying trial dogs don't have heart either. Just to be clear. I am just sharing some of my own progression.

 

Lana

[dracina]

To me, plenty of practical work is the key to creating a dog with a good foundation to be able to do well on the trial field. You just can't allow the practical work to be sloppy. I see a lot of dogs at trials who do a lot of course practice at home, and if anything goes wrong on the trial field, they often don't have the skills to fix it. They haven't been taught to think and actually *work* and *feel* the stock, and it shows. I agree with the other posters who have said that often someone looking for a dog for farm work just wants a dog who can perform some specific tasks and doesn't necessarily want a dog with all the "bells and whistles."

 

I think that that I am concerned because I don't want to trial necessarily; but I do want a solid working foundation. I am afraid of missing something, like the "bells and whistles" that I will wish I had learned.

 

You can say that a trial dog can do a days work, but unless you have seen one work 14 hours with little water, with pads burned off to blood...and then climb out a truck window at the end of that day to KEEP working..and then go back the next day and do it again... you just don't have an appreciation for the fact that heart and toughness are not the same on a day like that as they are for 12 minutes on the toughest trial course...

 

I love this, and I can't imagine how anyone could disagree.

 

I'm not sure about Wendy, but not really- I was talking about singling one sheep out, and then usually throwing it and holding it. Some of the same sort of work as shedding/singling, but usually done a bit differently- ideally the dogs can just single that indicated one off, rather than work with the handler to shed off most of the mob, so the handler can be doing something else while the dogs get the sheep, and then they either block it up until it just stands, or often they will hock or hold the nose and pull the sheep down. They don't have to do it very often, but it's a very handy skill for a farm dog.

 

Sorry, I need to do some serious terminology studying (throwing). Thanks for the explanation!

 

Thanks, everyone, for all of the comments and explanations!

 

Karrin

[Lana]

In pasture lambing at some point you will need to leg crook a ewe. To pull a lamb, or put a young laboring ewe in a pen so she will stop thinking she had her baby already, and stop trying to steal others.

 

A dog needs to be able to key in quickly on which ewe you want. Many dogs want to gather the whole group in that area, and the longer this process takes the more mis mothering and all around more pissed off ewes on the fight you have.

 

My young dog Nell got the nod for main lambing dog this year, and she was much better than my boys at immediately knowing which ewe you wanted. Her technique was to face the ewe off( which in my flock meant the ewe would turn to fight and often attack the dog) She would juke and move then hit the ewe hard on the nose, often with some hang time. This distracts the ewe enough that you can sneak in and leg crook her. Which i prefer to the tackle method

 

After a few of these it is like a good shed dog...they love it and look for the nod with great anticipation.

 

Many dogs give too much ground to be good at this, or wont hit a nose, or wont let go and immediately settle down once you catch the ewe. The dog has to know to stop and lay quietly once the job is over. If a lamb needs pulled you cant have a dog in the way, same if you are trying to load a mad ewe into a lamby bus to take her to a pen.

 

Needless to say this is a very cool real life skill that may not come in handy at a trial

 

Lana