Starting a dog

[dracina]

I have been watching some of the herding training videos that have been posted under other topics, and I see that mostly the beginner dog is "free" (the leash may be dragging, but is not being held), and the handler is working between the dog and the sheep.

 

I have a pretty basic question:

 

Is it best that a beginning dog be introduced to and allowed to work on the sheep without being on a line, or is it better for the dog to be on a rope held by the handler?

 

My dogs and I are beginners, and have started training last summer (mind you, in the fall/winter we did not work!) The way we are training now, the dog is leashed, and I am either next to the dog or behind him. I am never between the dog and sheep, and never facing the dog. We started with a short line, and have moved to a longer one, then he will drag (I presume) and eventually, he will not have a line. Does anyone else use this method?

 

Can anyone give me any insight about either/both of these methods? I am interested in hearing what those who train beginning dogs/handlers have to say.

[Smokjbc]

I have been watching some of the herding training videos that have been posted under other topics, and I see that mostly the beginner dog is "free" (the leash may be dragging, but is not being held), and the handler is working between the dog and the sheep.

 

I have a pretty basic question:

 

Is it best that a beginning dog be introduced to and allowed to work on the sheep without being on a line, or is it better for the dog to be on a rope held by the handler?

 

My dogs and I are beginners, and have started training last summer (mind you, in the fall/winter we did not work!) The way we are training now, the dog is leashed, and I am either next to the dog or behind him. I am never between the dog and sheep, and never facing the dog. We started with a short line, and have moved to a longer one, then he will drag (I presume) and eventually, he will not have a line. Does anyone else use this method?

 

Can anyone give me any insight about either/both of these methods? I am interested in hearing what those who train beginning dogs/handlers have to say.

 

 

There are well known handlers that handle a dog on a line initially, I personally could never "get it" and possibly not shown how correctly but I much prefer no line if possible. It really concerns me that the dog is "leashed" and it sounds like you are starting out driving instead of teaching the dog how to gather initially. The only purpose I use a line for is to catch a dog that doesn't want to come off sheep, and only for short term.

 

Is the person you are working with an Open border collie handler and/or well versed in working border collies? Without seeing what's actually happening, I hesistate to comment but it does not sound like the usual way to start a border collie.

[dracina]

Is the person you are working with an Open border collie handler and/or well versed in working border collies? Without seeing what's actually happening, I hesistate to comment but it does not sound like the usual way to start a border collie.

 

Hi Jaime:

 

Thank you for replying. Yes, my trainer is an Open Border Collie handler. She is, I think, a member of this board. It is not my intention to critcize her, as she is pretty accomplished, and especially since I haven't yet even asked her this question so she can not tell me her reasoning. I just thought of it this afternoon, while watching one of the videos posted under another topic. I really just have no idea, and I was curious after seeing the way other train.

 

I do have a video of our lesson yesterday; if you would like to see it so you can see what I mean, it is HERE.

[juliepoudrier]

The two most recent videos I can think of posted in the gallery are Robin and Meg and Brenda and Jake. I'm not sure where you're seeing the handler between the dog and the sheep or got the impression that this is the way it normally goes. The only time the handler is stepping between the dog and the sheep in the beginning is when the handler wants the dog to stop or when the handler turns into the dog (not really between the dog and sheep, although dog and handler are on same side of sheep for a moment); at all other times, the dog is encouraged to go *around* the sheep and fetch/wear them to the handler. In these two videos, the drag line is largely a back up in case the dog is so enthusiastic that it can't be easily stopped or called off sheep.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

In the very beginning, a dog may be led up to sheep on the leash just to see what kind of dog you have to deal with - how much attention the dog is paying to you, or whether the dog is interested in sheep or scared by them. Then mostly I've seen the dog either released to work free (dragging the leash) or put on a long line (if, uh, enthusiastic). Sometimes I'll introduce a strange dog that's had some training, on a line, to allow the dog freedom to show me what it's got. But the line's a safety measure not a training tool for me.

 

I've also seen a couple times, as Jaime mentions, handlers who use a line, often arranged as a "belly hitch" to issue a strong correction as needed. I know this is done by some top handlers (seriously top) so I've nothing to say against it but I'm not really into it myself. But, one never knows!

 

Ted was a veryveryveryvery strongwilled pup and never needed anything like that, or heck, I don't remember ever even training him with a line. I may have blocked that from my memory but I'm pretty sure. . . I actually loathe lines to be honest - I hate the distraction of thinking about where that thing might be like a snake in the grass waiting to wrap itself around my ankles and take all the skin off. *shudder*

 

Now watch my new pup will need oodles of time on the long line.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

For all dogs going into the round pen for the first time, I put a line on them. We walk around so the dog learn he can not lunge, yank or chase the sheep at the first meet and greet. We make the dog lie down a couple of times. Then we drop the line and let the dog work. Or we take off the line.

[stockdogranch]

Well, I've watched the video, and I must say that this is a method of starting/training a dog that I have never seen. As Becca says, I *might* do this with a dog who was acting disinterested in the sheep, hoping that by following them, a spark of interest might light up. As others have indicated, I might use a long line to catch a pup/dog that I thought might be otherwise uncatchable.

 

But I am not sure what is being taught here. Normally, we teach/encourage the beginning dog to go around the stock and get itself in a position to bring the stock to us. Then we might do a bit of walking backwards to let the dog keep bringing them to us. The reason we do this is to teach the dog the basic moves of a gather--probably the most fundamental thing the stockdog does is to bring stock to the handler. To do this, the dog goes out and around the stock.

 

Has this dog ever been allowed to go around the sheep on its own? You mention that your trainer might be on the Boards--I really do hope so, as I would like to understand the principles behind this method,

 

A

[RoseAmy]

My latest pup I used a line for. she showed alot of keeness and I needed a way to call her. Sometimes in the beginning if she got the sheep on the fence I would just quietly grab it and use it to help flank her between them and the fence. Once i had her "jump started" I would drop it. Mainly it was for calling her off the sheep.

[juliepoudrier]

I have to agree with Anna--it looks to me almost like you're trying to teach the dog to drive while keeping it on leash, when generally most of us start our dogs off gathering, since that's their natural inclination. I could see a line being used this way as just increasing the dog's frustration level since he's not really being allowed to work the sheep.

 

J.

[dracina]

The two most recent videos I can think of posted in the gallery are Robin and Meg and Brenda and Jake. I'm not sure where you're seeing the handler between the dog and the sheep or got the impression that this is the way it normally goes. The only time the handler is stepping between the dog and the sheep in the beginning is when the handler wants the dog to stop or when the handler turns into the dog (not really between the dog and sheep, although dog and handler are on same side of sheep for a moment); at all other times, the dog is encouraged to go *around* the sheep and fetch/wear them to the handler. In these two videos, the drag line is largely a back up in case the dog is so enthusiastic that it can't be easily stopped or called off sheep.

 

J.

 

Thank you, Julie, for responding. I don't have the impression that having the handler work between the sheep and the dog is the way it normally goes, that is why I am asking. I know that you are going to think that I am being snotty (which I am definitely not), but when I watch one of those videos mentioned, as well as others, I see a dog kind of running around *just* fetching.

 

Believe me when I say to you, I am not judging or saying that there is anything wrong: I really have no idea! I am a beginner, and I really just want to know what others use, so that I can make good choices for me and my dogs. I do understand that there are many different methods of training, and I just want to explore them!

[juliepoudrier]

but when I watch one of those videos mentioned, as well as others, I see a dog kind of running around *just* fetching.

What I see is a dog learning to go around its sheep and bring them to the handler and in the process learning to read its sheep and figure out how to respond to them appropriately. I see a handler learning how her body position/pressure can influence the dog/how the dog works (in the case of Brenda; Robin already understand this, obviously). I see a dog figuring out how to control the sheep and hold them to the human. I see a dog actually *working* sheep, not just following them along on a leash. Once the dog can reliably fetch the sheep to the human, it's not a large matter for the human to turn in the direction the dog and sheep are going and get the first few steps of the drive. This is all foundation work for teaching the dog to read sheep and respond appropriately and for the human to learn to read sheep and learn to influence the dog. A dog that is not allowed to just work--including just fetching--isn't going to learn *how* to work (i.e., to read sheep and respond appropriately). We humans can shape and direct, but there's no substitute for allowing the dog to just work and learn, IMO. In my experience, too much handler control early on can actually "teach" the dog that it's not okay to think on its own.

 

J.

[dracina]

Well, I've watched the video, and I must say that this is a method of starting/training a dog that I have never seen. As Becca says, I *might* do this with a dog who was acting disinterested in the sheep, hoping that by following them, a spark of interest might light up. As others have indicated, I might use a long line to catch a pup/dog that I thought might be otherwise uncatchable.

 

But I am not sure what is being taught here. Normally, we teach/encourage the beginning dog to go around the stock and get itself in a position to bring the stock to us. Then we might do a bit of walking backwards to let the dog keep bringing them to us. The reason we do this is to teach the dog the basic moves of a gather--probably the most fundamental thing the stockdog does is to bring stock to the handler. To do this, the dog goes out and around the stock.

 

Has this dog ever been allowed to go around the sheep on its own? You mention that your trainer might be on the Boards--I really do hope so, as I would like to understand the principles behind this method,

 

A

 

Thank you, Anna! I have read loads of herding books, watched loads of video, and seen a few trials and I have never seen this method used. That is why I am asking: since I am a beginner at actually handling (as opposed to studying), I want to look at different methods, so that I can better understand what works best for others, so I can try different things.

 

No, he has never been off the line. Jack is definitely not disinterested; in fact, he is super keen. I do think that he is getting frustrated by not being allowed to go to the stock on his own.

[dracina]

What I see is a dog learning to go around its sheep and bring them to the handler and in the process learning to read its sheep and figure out how to respond to them appropriately. I see a handler learning how her body position/pressure can influence the dog/how the dog works. I see a dog figuring out how to control the sheep and hold them to the human. I see a dog actually *working* sheep, not just following them along on a leash. Once the dog can reliably fetch the sheep to the human, it's not a large matter for the human to turn in the direction the dog and sheep are going and get the first few steps of the drive. This is all foundation work for teaching the dog to read sheep and respond appropriately and for the human to learn to read sheep and learn to influence the dog. A dog that is not allowed to just work--including just fetching--isn't going to learn *how* to work (i.e., to read sheep and respond appropriately). We humans can shape and direct, but there's no substitute for allowing the dog to just work and learn, IMO. In my experience, too much handler control early on can actually "teach" the dog that it's not okay to think on its own.

 

J.

 

OK, that is what I was looking for: the reasoning behind this method, and why it works.

 

Would there be any pros to using a leash that anyone can think of?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I don't have the impression that having the handler work between the sheep and the dog is the way it normally goes, that is why I am asking. I know that you are going to think that I am being snotty (which I am definitely not), but when I watch one of those videos mentioned, as well as others, I see a dog kind of running around *just* fetching.

 

When a dog goes around the sheep, it's not just circling. You can tell the dog whether it's moving right to "feel" the sheep - or rather the sheep will tell the dog if you have the right kind for training. Trial and error helps the dog learn where the "sweet spot" is. Once he's learned this, he can learn how to control confidently too.

 

If you restrain the dog (at least I think so), the dog never can experiment and learn this. As Julie said, a keen dog can get really frustrated. That leads to tension that makes it hard to get to a place where you, the dog, and the sheep can all think.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the handler being between the sheep and the dog. I release a new dog from beside me and the hope is that the dog will circle behind. That often doesn't happen, so you can make the dog stop and think with a correction, then you back up, and the dog is bringing you the sheep (assuming the sheep are the cooperative type who will turn to you instead of looking for an exit or the nearest fence!).

 

The pause in the action gives the dog a chance to feel the "sweet spot." Then you can turn and have the dog go around again, or else stop, bring the dog back, and repeat sending the dog.

 

There's lots of variations but the purpose is always to increase the dog's awareness of how to move around the sheep, and thus control them, quietly. Forcing the dog to keep pushing them away before he's ready for a controlled escape, would take away that control, I'd think.

 

Once the dog learns this combination of feel and control, in a variety of situations, you can develop these skills into anything a stockdog needs to do, including driving.

 

The video's not working for me so I am not commenting on anything these specifically. I'm just responding to the above quote.

[dracina]

When a dog goes around the sheep, it's not just circling. You can tell the dog whether it's moving right to "feel" the sheep - or rather the sheep will tell the dog if you have the right kind for training. Trial and error helps the dog learn where the "sweet spot" is. Once he's learned this, he can learn how to control confidently too.

 

If you restrain the dog (at least I think so), the dog never can experiment and learn this. As Julie said, a keen dog can get really frustrated. That leads to tension that makes it hard to get to a place where you, the dog, and the sheep can all think.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the handler being between the sheep and the dog. I release a new dog from beside me and the hope is that the dog will circle behind. That often doesn't happen, so you can make the dog stop and think with a correction, then you back up, and the dog is bringing you the sheep (assuming the sheep are the cooperative type who will turn to you instead of looking for an exit or the nearest fence!).

 

The pause in the action gives the dog a chance to feel the "sweet spot." Then you can turn and have the dog go around again, or else stop, bring the dog back, and repeat sending the dog.

 

There's lots of variations but the purpose is always to increase the dog's awareness of how to move around the sheep, and thus control them, quietly. Forcing the dog to keep pushing them away before he's ready for a controlled escape, would take away that control, I'd think.

 

Once the dog learns this combination of feel and control, in a variety of situations, you can develop these skills into anything a stockdog needs to do, including driving.

 

The video's not working for me so I am not commenting on anything these specifically. I'm just responding to the above quote.

 

That is an excellent explanantion, and thank you for taking the time to write it out. I understand what you are saying.

 

So I take it that there isn't anybody out there that uses the leash method that can tell me if/why it works?

[Smokjbc]

Hello,

 

I think I can see where that method is coming from- a friend of mine used something similar (although not quite so controlled) to shape flanks and I believe he got the method from a training clinic of a top International handler whose name escapes me. So there might be some very good reasons for what's going on, but I have to say that its not a training method I would use myself. I want my dogs to learn the "default" as soon as possible, that their job is to bring me sheep. If things go screwy, at least I'm sure my dog knows that their #1 job is that those are my sheep and when in doubt, they head my way.

[OurBoys]

dracina, Does your dog already know how to fetch? Is your trainer now teaching you guys to drive?

 

(btw, thanks for starting this thread. I have found it to be most interesting.)

[dracina]

dracina, Does your dog already know how to fetch? Is your trainer now teaching you guys to drive?

 

(btw, thanks for starting this thread. I have found it to be most interesting.)

 

Hi Brenda:

 

I am training two dogs right now, and neither has been allowed off the leash while on the sheep, so I have no idea if they can fetch nicely or not. I am pretty sure they can do, but really have no proof.

 

In the video I posted, we actually are working on driving. I think that my trainer is trying to instill a strong drive, because Jack really lacks the confidence with that: he wants to go around the sheep. Judging by what everyone else has said, Jack is right. But he is not being allowed yet to do this.

 

(And my pleasure; I am learning alot from this thread!)

[juliepoudrier]

Jaime,

You're talking about Bobby Dalziel probably. He does use a long line when teaching a dog to square its flanks while driving, and apparently will also use it to encourage a clappy dog forward (at least I seem to remember someone telling me that). I took a clinic with him when Twist was 8 months old (she's 7 1/2 now) and I was still pretty much a novice, having never really trialed above P/N at that point. I had a very hard time making it work. I probably could manage it better now that I have more experience, but I've found it easier to teach square flanks simpy using body pressure and verbal corrections on the fetch, which can then be transferred to the drive (more like Derek Scrimgeour's methods). Bobby is a master at the long line technique, but I doubt there are a large number of people who can do it the way he does and get the results he does.

 

J.

[Smokjbc]

Jaime,

You're talking about Bobby Dalziel probably. He does use a long line when teaching a dog to square its flanks while driving, and apparently will also use it to encourage a clappy dog forward (at least I seem to remember someone telling me that).

 

J.

 

Yes.. that was the person. It seemed to work ok for my friend, but I don't know what the end product was since he gave up working dogs before the dogs he started with it were finished. I know he still let them fetch though, it was only if he flanked them that he went and picked up the line. Basically, he would just hold onto it until the dog gave the correct bend and then let it go.

[Debbie Meier]

Sorry to come in late, been busy loading for the Festival. I did not get to see your video, slow dial up that is glitching tonight...but based on your description your starting out the same way I start many of my dogs out and how Jake was started. The cord is used to help keep the dog from going too wrong, yeah they might try to go too fast, but you can easily correct it, they might try to slice but you can immediately correct it, they might try to go out too big, but you can immediately correct it, the key is not to prevent the mistakes (incorrect choices), the key is to make the incorrect choices difficult but the right choice easy, if you use the cord as a way to prevent mistakes you won't be teaching anything. It's especially handy when you don't have access to sheep that will help show the dog the right and wrong places (dogged sheep that tend to create less pressure then flighty sheep). Also, you can make little adjustments without interferring with the contact between dog and sheep, you can move around and not make yourself a fixture by always being in the same place relative to the dog and sheep. Oh yeah, and it's easy on the sheep.

 

As you get better at the timing and seeing where things begin to go wrong (easier to see from behind then between the sheep and the dog or when leading the sheep for some people) then you can start dogs without the cord if you wish, I have some that are real natural and don't offer alot of mistakes so I don't need it much, I just got one of those in this week, though I do need it when I want her to come off balance or to walk up, just a little reinforcement from the cord to get her up when I give her the command gets the stick out, I will also use the cord to help her find her inside flanks. Then you might get one that starts out in the right place feeling pressure correct but as they get comfortable or excited they start bumping their stock, some will start getting sticky some will speed up, either way you can correct them and help show them that staying committed to flanking and adjusting pressure as needed to get around the sheep is the easy path, until asked to stop.

 

Also, if you follow your instructors lead you should find yourself going down the path of discovering the circles and lines. Once you get your dog giving you either a circle, line or stop training get's pretty easy, it's just a matter of getting obedience, expirence in new situations and building distance from your dog. The dog will automatically adjust pressure as needed to hold a proper flank under any conditions and the dog will also automatically adjust pressure to keep the sheep on a line moving forward, if the sheep can't move forward anymore the dog will release pressure just enough to hold the line. Yeah, he/she might still make a mistake, but apply a correction and they will fall back to what they know, a correct circle, line or stop.

 

I probably gave you way more then you are ready for, I have found few people that believe that the process will work, I've seen many that can not get it to work for them, more so due to not understanding what they are trying to show the dog while leading them, yeah you can even be leading when the dog is ahead you. It takes more patience, you get less instant gratification then you would by being able to just sit back and watch what your dog will give you, but it's worth it in the long run, the process will teach you how to train if you can grasp it.

 

Stick with your instructor, if your heading down the same path I went down and am continuing to follow you will find little help early on elsewhere, other advice will initially conflict with what you will be taught, but there is a common end. The instructor that got me going told me to plan on being lonely traveling down this training path, I was also advised to train with people that follow the same method.

 

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, heck you guys all know already I march to the beat of a different drum...on a different planet

 

 

Deb

[Pam Wolf]

Since there has been so much negatively written about using a long line, I'd like to present the other side. After over 20 years of not using a line and hating it because I'd seen it used abusively and used to make a dog mechanical. I then went ot a Bobby Dalziel clinic and while skeptical, I used it on a dog with a driving problem. As I told him, when it cured my dog, "I can see it for driving, but you actually start a dog this way?" He then proceeded to take out some young dogs (albeit these didn't have much keeness nor talent or were too young) to show me. I could still see the brilliance of this method.

 

I also recognize it's biggest faults. First, it is difficult to explain because it REQUIRES the handler to have a very clear picture in his/her head of the correct way for a dog to work. The handler MUST recognize when the dog is in proper contact with the stock in order to guide the dog into the proper behaviours. Additionally, the dog either needs to have the correct instincts for heading or be shown how to head before having it push the sheep from behind. It is not 'following" nor "driving" really. The handler MUST insure square flanks and a good 'walk up' along with reinforcing a solid lie down.

 

I have recently used this method for many dogs (of several breeds) and love it. I recently encountered a dog that it didn't work well for, but have since gone back to another line technique which is improving her work tremendously (she is loose eyed-and PB BC from strong eyed parents). There are many variations and subtleties to using the long line. I see as many problems with a round pen as with a long line. Both are good, just depends on the handler/trainer as to how well they are used.

 

Pam

[Little Bo Boop]

We recently had a Bobby Dalziel clinic in Texas (I was unable to make it unfortunately) But it seems like now everybody (well a fair number ;-) ) is going with the line method. I've never used a line on a dog, and am really not comfortable doing so. A friend of mine (who attended the clinic) came over a few weeks ago, and was using the line on her trained dog. The dog tends to get a little wide, so she was using the line to bring her in. She also has a tendency to wear quite a bit behind her sheep, so she then used it to keep her in line behind them. Her other young dog, on an inside flank, tends to come back behind her, and she was using the line to get him to flank properly, and keep him from going back around her. I have a young dog that does that as well, and have been toying with the idea of trying that on him...I guess on the face of it, I wouldn't be too keen on starting a dog on a line, but perhaps that's just because that's not the way 'I' was started ;-) I also think it would be particularly difficult for a novice to start a dog using a line, as it seems timing and stock savvy would be critical, and as a novice you just don't have that... not to mention trying to stay out of the way of the line ;-)

I wish I had been able to actually see BD using a line on a dog, to get a better idea of how it works...I guess I'll try and make the next clinic ;-) In the mean time, maybe I'll try the line on Bill to work on his inside flanks, guess it can't hurt ;-)

 

Betty

[juliepoudrier]

I also think it would be particularly difficult for a novice to start a dog using a line, as it seems timing and stock savvy would be critical, and as a novice you just don't have that... not to mention trying to stay out of the way of the line ;-)

Betty

This would be my concern as well. While a novice's timing and stock savvy might be off for any method, it seems to me that there's a greater potential to mess things up with a line involved. Like I said in my earlier post, I couldn't possibly have implemented BD's methods back when I went to his clinic, although I probably could make it work now, with the added training experience I've gained over the intervening years.

 

J.

[Little Bo Boop]

This would be my concern as well. While a novice's timing and stock savvy might be off for any method,

it seems to me that there's a greater potential to mess things up with a line involved

. Like I said in my earlier post, I couldn't possibly have implemented BD's methods back when I went to his clinic, although I probably could make it work now, with the added training experience I've gained over the intervening years.

 

J.

 

 

That would be my thinking as well. It would seem to me, that a novice starting a dog, would have a greater margin for error training the dog 'loose' or unrestrained vice training on a line. I would think you could really muck up the works if you didn't know what you were doing.

 

Betty