Training goals and timelines

[Ooky]

I was saddened to read Darci's thread and several of the responses. I love the training discussion here although 90% of it goes completely over my head. And also, as a pet person, agree there's not enough. The discussions here are one of the main reasons I am trying stockwork before and currently in lieu of agility, rally-o, flyball, etc. Not that I won't possibly try those too, but this is what interests me most. People who DO post in this section have an amazing passion and relationship with their dogs that's not hard to see. Plus, I like sheep and cattle.

 

So I'm asking an annoying, totally doesn't know what she's talking about question that I realize at the core depends completely on the dog and the handler. Maybe it can generate discussion while enlightening me.

 

I'm starting Odin tomorrow - well actually someone else much more knowledgeable is starting him, but you get the idea. There is a clinic in August I've been invited to that I found out will only be in the field, no round pen. What are the chances Odin and I could even possibly be ready to attend such a clinic? Again I realize that it would totally depend on talent, etc., but what caliber of dog would you need, and what caliber of handler, to get to that level that fast? What amount of (frequency of) practice? What would be the potential drawbacks or benefits to pushing towards something specific like that?

 

I plan to ask the trainer tomorrow for an honest initial evaluation of Odin's ability or lack thereof as well, so I will have more info very soon. But on a more general level, I was just hoping this could get stockpeople and trialers talking about how they decide to set certain early training goals and how long different basic concepts or stages tend to take.

 

Too open-ended? Much appreciate any response you'd like to give.

[stockdogranch]

Wow. It really depends on the dog and the handler, totally. As for a clinic in August, I'd plan to go and audit at this point, but you never know. Sometimes clinicians will specify the dogs must be up to P/N level and above or something like that, which would be pretty much non-doable by then.

 

It depends on the dog's age/maturity level/genetics/working style/temperament/biddability.... It depends on the handler and how quickly s/he "gets" it; it also depends on the trainer and his/her training methods and style. Not the nice easy answers you were looking for, huh?

 

I think rather than aiming for certain goals as far as training, especially when just starting out with a first dog, the best approach is to just enjoy the ride. Learn as much as you can, go out to work the dog as often as is logistically and financially feasible, and just savor the learning. That's really the best part--seeing the dog start to understand things, and also, as a handler, beginning to feel like maybe you're getting a clue. There's often a great moment when you start to feel like you're actually starting to direct what the dog does as opposed to just trying to survive in there, with the sheep/dog/person chaos. Although, be forewarned--the more you think you know, the more you'll realize you don't know.

 

Ok, to give you a specific example, I've got a pup right now that I have in mind that I'd like to run in Nursery (cattle) in some trials in August, when we do a long road trip for lots of cattle trials in Wyoming each year. I'm hoping that by then the pup will be able to do the work--the distance of outrun (already got that--no problem), the drives (driving is not coming so easily for this pup), inside flanks, etc., but I am also aware that the pup will not probably be competitive by then, but that I am running the pup for the trial experience: different stock, different settings, and so on. When the time comes (entries often have to sent in months in advance), that pup may or may not really be taking inside flanks as well as I'd like, and so may not be up to the level that I had hoped. Or that pup may surprise me and win the class. You never know. I'll take the pup anyway, and at least let her go to the post to bring her stock, let her experience a long road trip, and see how she handles herself and unfamiliar stock, so it will all be a learning and valuable experience for her. (I will also add that I have been doing this long enough and have brought along enough young dogs that I can easily recognize when the pup is in trouble or is in over her head, and will readily pull a pup out of such a situation, so that it isn't regressing in its training or confidence. So I tend to push things a bit more than a newer handler might, and can get away with doing so.) So, while I do kind of set goals to reach a certain level by a certain time, I am also very aware that those goals may or may not be based in reality. Basically, you have to work with what you have and go from there.

 

Which is I guess a very long way of saying, "it depends."

 

A

[desertranger]

I have to admire and be a bit envious of those who have access to sheep. For Jin to do that will have to be an arranged weekend.

 

In the past we have tried to follow the general timeline of basic to advanced obedience training to about the age of 8 months or less. After that general more advanced training and stupid dog tricks the training for trail work to about 1 year then drayage, pulling a wagon, single and in teams or a travois. After that specialty work SAR for example. I've never put a dog into serious work until they were about 2 1/2.

[Smokjbc]

I'm starting Odin tomorrow - well actually someone else much more knowledgeable is starting him, but you get the idea. There is a clinic in August I've been invited to that I found out will only be in the field, no round pen. What are the chances Odin and I could even possibly be ready to attend such a clinic?

 

 

Hello,

 

I think it's entirely feasible, that allowing for no major training hurdles, you ought to be able to participate in the field clinic by August. Most dogs should spend only a few times in the round pen, once you have balance and control established, most Border Collies are ready for a larger area. It's the owners that have the learning curve . So much is going to depend on Odin's natural ability and your ability to learn good timing and corrections.

[Lenajo]

Without resorting to "it depends" as I would like to , I will say that I start most of my pups out in the field, as do the people that started me years ago. I do use a fenceline to cut down the territory at first, and if I have any doubts I have a back-up dog that helps as well.

 

When I use a pen to train its usually square and a dog thats at least part trained. typically we are working on corners.

 

There are great trainers who start in a rp, and those that never use them. It's a personal preference and as long as the clinic states the beginners are welcome they should be able to deal with pretty what whatever Odin presents in the available set up.

 

oh god, that was a total 3 paragraph "it depends"

[juliepoudrier]

Ditto on the "it depends" thing. I will say this, though. Before I got a round pen, and even now that I have a round pen, I would take one of my fully trained dogs and use them as a living fence while I worked a youngster. So you don't have to have small spaces to start a dog. Probably way more important than the size of the area you're working in is the appropriateness of the sheep for a beginner dog. Well broke sheep that won't take advantage by heading for the back 40 whenever the pup makes a mistake can make a huge difference.

 

Even when Robin has lesson days here, sometimes we'll take a more advanced dog and station it where the strong draw is so that if the newbie dog makes a mistake, the sheep don't disappear into the back of beyond. My point being that a round pen isn't absolutely necessary in order for you to take a newbie dog to a clinic. I'd ask the host/clinician what s/he thinks about your dog and the training situation and whether it's a suitable set up for your level of expertise. If they say it's probably not the best for a beginner dog, you can always go audit--often when you're just starting out you can learn a lot more from a clinic when you don't have a dog you're spending time worrying about and can instead concentrate on the techniques the clinician is using on a variety of dogs that are in the clinic.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I don't like to have deadlines on my training goals because I've got so many other demands on my time, but for a young dog, I generally like to have the baby dog ready for the first lambing season after he starts training - that was too early for Ted as I didn't have my act together to start him until right around his first birthday. But he was ready by the next lambing. That meant he could work in unfenced areas, handle unusual pressure, and do some assisted driving.

 

My next goal for Ted in particular is scarier and DOES have a time deadline - he needs to be ready to run PN on a fairly tough field at the end of May. So I'm going to aim much higher than PN with his training to the best of my ability, ie, getting him and me ready for Open. He's close - I'm the one who needs practice.

 

Similarly, my question wouldn't be, could my dog work AT the level desired by the clinic host/instructor, but would he be well beyond it? You'll want to work on single issues at a clinic, not practicing the basics. Been there, done that, that crow is not very tasty. But it's certainly doable if all they want is for your dog to be at, say, novice-novice level. That assumes you'll be able to make it to regular lessons and your dog progresses at a steady pace.

 

Good luck!

[jdarling]

I have to admire and be a bit envious of those who have access to sheep. For Jin to do that will have to be an arranged weekend.

 

Steve, Candy Kennedy isn't that far from you. What about taking some lessons with her?

[workindogs]

Actually, Steve, Candy Kennedy would be a great choice but IS quite far if you live in Oakland. Fortuntately, there are a couple of super trainers that are much closer...you should look in to taking some lessons with either Bill Berhow (Zamora/Woodland) or Suzy Applegate (Plymouth/SE Sacramento area).

 

An experienced trainer would be best to help you set a timeline....it is reallly dependent on too many unknown factors (unknown to us)....like the ability of your dog, your own ability, time invested in training/working your dog, access to sheep, etc.

 

You've got to start somewhere....good luck.

[jdarling]

Actually, Steve, Candy Kennedy would be a great choice but IS quite far if you live in Oakland.

 

LOL! Yes, that would be quite a drive! Steve lives in Palm Springs.

[Chesney's Girl]

First off, How did the first lesson go?

 

Now, for me when I started Chesney, the first few lessons were repairing what was improperly done the first time around when he was younger (inexperienced handler with young dog and below par trainer), so starting fresh with a good teacher, you're already steps ahead of us! Once we found a wonderful mentor progress was made fairly quickly from the paddock to the pasture. Moving to a larger area tests the dog and presents new challenges which introduces a whole new lesson for the dog.

 

After we had a new basis, my goals were very short term. As in, "Today we will work on gathering." Most of this was learned through doing chores, changing sheep and sorting at Anna's (Thanks for teaching me how to make my dog a practical worker first! ). Chesney would gather the whole group then sort and take a break while other dogs worked. If the sheep in the pasture needed changing, Chesney gathered them up and put them away. That was that days lesson. Once he had that part of the work done, we changed our daily goals.

 

So with all that rambling I just did, what I was trying to say is set day to day goals and try to meet them. Before you know it, it will be August and Odin will be farther along than you ever imagined when you first started and heard about the clinic being in a big open pasture. Heck one of the best lessons Chesney and I learned while doing chores was... Don't lose your sheep in the big field! Two times of us losing them and we both learned how to cover them and move them around. Timing on my part and reading sheep on Chesney's part.

 

Like Anna said, for now... Just enjoy each lesson and be a sponge! It all goes by so quickly.

[Mark Billadeau]

Training a young dog in a field vs. a round pen is more about the sheep available for training and the instructor than it is about the young dog or novice handler. Tommy Wilson starts his dogs on 20-30 sheep in 1-2 acre field; he uses his trained dogs to help keep the sheep from running off.

 

Round pens are useful when only a few sheep are available and they will run off in the presence of a young dog. Some young dogs are more comfortable away from the pressures of fences; some relax more knowing there is fence to prevent the sheep from escaping.

 

As long as the instructor and host know where you and your dog are at in your training and they are willing to work with you; I see no reason why you couldn't attend a field only clinic.

 

Mark

[Burnandreturn]

I normally start my dogs out in the open. Not in a round pen. If I use a round pen the dog is on the outside of the round pen with the sheep inside the round pen. I never start my dogs inside a round pen. I don't want to put any pressure on my young dog at that point. I am in the round pen and the pup out side and I just teach him to head the sheep and stay at 12:00. No commands. Of course I have older dogs to control things and keep the sheep where I want.

 

It will depend on your talent more than the dogs! How fast you learn to read your sheep and then be in the right place to influence your dog in a very non threatening manner.

[Caroline Reichard]

A large field w/ a back-up dog and an experienced trainer is a completely different experience than a big field w/ a well-meaning beginning handler trying to do the best he/ she knows with a first dog. The beginner may admire what the expert can do in the big field, and for all the right reasons, but often cannot replicate those results at home.

 

In Field # 1 there is Cap, the eager young dog, who is making rapid progress under the confident supervision of a knowledgeable expert who magically seems to always be able to be in exactly the right spot w/out even breaking out of a walk. The sheep are calmed by her presence: quiet and predictable. Meanwhile old Shep, the back-up dog, warms himself in the sun. Rarely, young Cap makes a mess and old Shep calmly heads the ship back towards the group. It is Dog Training Heaven.

 

Field #2 is the beginner's field. Here is young Dash, 15 months old and rarin' to go, followed by his deeply-committed and determined handler. The sheep eyed them with distrust when they entered, as well they might. You can't see any of them anymore, though, because the field is empty. The dog has already chased the sheep into the next county. The well-meaning handler is trudging along behind (she no longer has the energy to run), praying to the Shepherd God that everyone will still be alive at the end of it all and cursing her own incompetence. It is hardly her fault, but she feels terrible nonetheless.

 

I have been in Field #2 plenty of times, and it sucked. For my money, until you have amassed a hatful of experience handling sheep and dogs, consider the beauties of a small pen until you and your dog have built up some justified trust in one another. For too long I was committed to the "Big Field Philosophy" because (1) I had a strong aesthetic response to the idea of trusting and training a dog through work and open spaces, and (2) I didn't have a small pen. I had a lot of pride, though, and was too stupid to ask for help from local experts. Now I realize that the expert's big field comes equipped with other features that I as a beginner could not have hoped to reproduce. I only started making progress as a handler when I rescaled the challenges of the training expereince to a level that I could confidently understand and control.

 

Since I am not an Open handler, I am very leery of posting training advice. But Darci has suggested that we should all feel more willing to post inorfmation in the Training forum. Beginner's mistakes are something that I guess I ought to be able to post about confidently, since I have made most of them. This post is not directed straight at this thread or the OP but is directed towards the beginners reading this Forum and wondering where to go with their dogs.

[Debbie Meier]

Caroline, your post made me chuckle and remember a couple years back, it was the first time I attempted to recreate field #1 with some trusty kneeknockers, my most advanced dog and a 1yr old pup, heck I had good handle on Sheila and she was doing some nice work (IMO, she knew her flanks and had a stop)....well, as the pup went north Sheila decided that she was a pup again went to join her. We had about 6 inches of snow with a small drift here and there, I had recently read where working in the snow could help take the steam off a dog, well I turned my attention to give Sheila a down command, with my back to the pup for a split second, some where in that flash of time Sandra had latched onto a tail and was taking a ride flapping like a sail, while the ewe was heading right to me seeking safety (BTW, Sandra is a little red ACD fetch demon, about 25 lbs, she was not letting go and had no fear). Wayne was watching from the window only seeing half of the debacle through his tears. To say the least there was quite a crash, I lost my breath and found myself in a heap in a snow drift, having my legs taken out from behind by that dang old knee knocking ewe. Wayne still wishes he had had a video camera running that day, he could have made some money.

 

Learned a couple good lessons that day, here's just a few: One, what I thought was trained really wasn't. Two, knee knockers are not the best choice of sheep for some situations. Three, snow depth don't make a bit of difference when a pup wants to Yeehaa or when a knee knocker has her homing device turned on.

 

Anyway, using an expirence dog while training a young pup should come with a "Don't Try This At Home!" disclaimer.

 

Deb

[1sheepdoggal]

Since I am not an Open handler, I am very leery of posting training advice. But Darci has suggested that we should all feel more willing to post inorfmation in the Training forum. Beginner's mistakes are something that I guess I ought to be able to post about confidently, since I have made most of them. This post is not directed straight at this thread or the OP but is directed towards the beginners reading this Forum and wondering where to go with their dogs.

 

I am so pleased to see that by making an ass of myself, and being a whiney baby, it has brought the training section back to life!

Maybe that was my original intention??? I'll never tell!

[Burnandreturn]

Just to be clear, I didn't not recommend that the OP do it how I said. I just commented on how I do it.

[Amelia]

"There is a clinic in August I've been invited to that I found out will only be in the field, no round pen. What are the chances Odin and I could even possibly be ready to attend such a clinic?"

 

Hello all. Most handlers going to a first time clinic make the same mistake. They do not have a solid lie down on their dog. So, what happens is, instead of giving the dog good training experience on sheep, the clinician spends that dog's alotted time teaching it to lie down while attempting to give it useful training on stock.

 

Adult dogs belonging to my first time students rarely, if ever, have a lie down. So, they spend a good deal of money having me teach it when they could have got a bigger bang for their buck if they had taught it at home.

 

Unless the paramters for the clinic are specifically set for a particular level of training, then it's not your responsibility to have your dog ready for the clinic. Getting ready to trial or work is the reason you're paying money to attend! If he or she is worth their salt, the clinician will be able to handle all comers whether in a round pen or outside, but you will create a far more valuable learning situation for yourself and your dog if your dog will lie down on stock when told.

 

Teach your dog a solid lie down on stock, then have fun and go to the clinic. You have to crack out some time.

[jdarling]

I showed up at a Shannahan clinic with Echo when she was about 8 months old, and she'd only been on stock one other time and wasn't even handled by me (I had just had surgery). What I took away from that clinic was probably one of the most valuable things I've learned to date. Instead of lying her down (which is what most clinicians would teach), we instead were learning about pace, what it actually is, how to use it and how to teach it. Best "mistake" I ever made.

[Amelia]

Hi Jody. Your dog clearly falls in the "it depends" category, but generally speaking, you are more likely to benefit from a clinic with a good stop than without.

[Lenajo]

Agreed, the biggest "mistake" I've heard beginners told they make (and I made myself) by well respected instructors was to depend on the down instead of training the dog. When asked all of them, yes *all* as it's a apparently a common question for clinicians, said they do not want a down on their own dogs until they have well established balance and pace.

 

Wasn't it Bruce Fogt's book that mentioned the ironclad beginner down versus the experienced trainer's flow...and how had it was to get from one mode to the other. It's even harder if you train on your own in the beginning. The down becomes your savior, and then it's the devil crutch you can't get away from.

 

Now that I'm finally feeling like I've got my feet a little wet on this training thing I'd have to say if I could choose between a dog that had been pushed to have feel for the stock/pace but no down, and a dog that had a down but no work on feel/pace...I know what I'd pick.

 

 

 

quote name='jdarling' date='Apr 13 2009, 05:53 PM' post='294860']

I showed up at a Shannahan clinic with Echo when she was about 8 months old, and she'd only been on stock one other time and wasn't even handled by me (I had just had surgery). What I took away from that clinic was probably one of the most valuable things I've learned to date. Instead of lying her down (which is what most clinicians would teach), we instead were learning about pace, what it actually is, how to use it and how to teach it. Best "mistake" I ever made.

[PSmitty]

Interesting. My trainer didn't insist on a down for quite a long time, actually. Sometimes I wonder if we waited too long to enforce it, but in the beginning it was not a big concern for her.

 

ETA: She was the one working my dog in the beginning, so I don't know if that made any difference or not.

[Burnandreturn]

There is something a new handler on stock maybe should realize. That being they might do things with their first dogs that they would not do after gaining some stocksense and training savy. As long as they accept that their first dog will probably not reach its real potential, then all is well. I don't even teach my dogs to lie down on or away from stock until they will go around the stock and balance and wear to me. I want them to learn to think and work stock and work with me. But I have the sheep and trained dogs and stocksense to do it this way. Stocksense being the biggest asset.

 

To the original poster, do what you are comfortable with and then adjust as you gain experience.

[Laurae]

There is something a new handler on stock maybe should realize. That being they might do things with their first dogs that they would not do after gaining some stocksense and training savy. As long as they accept that their first dog will probably not reach its real potential, then all is well.

 

Word.

[Lenajo]

There are handlers and first dogs that have reached very high success indeed. Pat Shannahan as mentioned with his Hannah for one. Pat trained Hannah from scratch. Read here And I also believe Amelia's first dog was her Price as well - I'm sure she'll answer that for sure.

 

I think we do beginners a great disservice when we substandard the training with the assumption that they will not have success because its a first dog. Sure they will have a longer road to follow, but perhaps in someways it will be easier than those of us who have already got enough pre-conceived ideas to screw up a pack of dogs behind us.

 

You don't change the alphabet or the rules of grammer when you teach a child. You just take it slow, use crutches only as necessary then wean them on to the proper version as they mature. Should it not be the same for dog training?