How much is to much

[1sheepdoggal]

Never mind.

I retracted the question, because it is clear that the majority of board members are not interested or knowledgable in talking about working dogs.

I am saddened by the trend in which this forum seems to be taking, and that posts about dog friendly cars and what you do with you dogs while on vacation (no offence to those that posted those topics, just an observation) can take up 2 threads, while a working dog question cant get 2 answers. I will direct my working dog questions from here on out to my trainer, or the Ask An Expert" section. I can understand now, why the Boards have lost so many good working dog contributors.

Thank you to the two folks that did reply.

[stockdogranch]

Can he do little walkabouts? Are you able to face forward and just walk, letting him bring the sheep to you, with him repositioning as necessary (as you meander and don't always walk a straight line) to keep them in balance? I like to do a fair amount of that, using different groups of sheep--heavier, lighter, some that won't always stay together, bigger groups, etc. To me, the dog is learning the most important lesson it can, and that is to feel/read/rate its stock without you having to dictate every move,

 

A

[1sheepdoggal]

........................Deleted by poster.............................

[Debbie Meier]

I have a totally different approach, so probably no useful advice here. But, I would'nt be afraid to get in there and make it in his best interest to develop some pace and control by teaching him to move the sheep correctly, I'm guessing that he is in too close and needs to be back further so that he can move them via holding a line vs. wearing, the only time I allow wearing is if the sheep are so individually heavy that they won't move individually or as a group from a distance, I don't work heavy sheep like that with a pup. Kinda like the bump this one up, now this one up, now this one needs a bump. Are his flanks right? Or are they causing the sheep to accelerate? Getting his flank correct will help him rate also, when he stops flanking he will be out in the right place so that he can see the balance point and set a line.

 

but he is now learning to anticipate my body language instead of listening to me because we have done the same things so many times

 

I wouldn't let him continue, I'd stop him, ask again, if he is still wrong, stop him, hopefully he will try something else. He might not be listening to you because he does not understand the word, only the body language. Letting him continue just puts less value on the word.

 

 

Deb

[1sheepdoggal]

........Deleted by OP.............

[workindogs]

Darci

 

I have no idea what the original question is....?

 

Let me just say that I agree....this Board seems to be mostly interested in color, what dog food to feed, and experiences at the dog park. I assume that is the reason I don't know what your question is...

 

How much wearing? Circling?? You need to be working toward some feel for stock....does your dog not have feel?? Is it rushing, pushing too hard? How much distance are you gaining?? Does the dog need to start stopping?....in order to walk up (learn to use it's eye). Need more space?? Working too close??

 

I'd love to contribute....but still...I don't know what the question is.

 

Wishing you the best,

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Post the question back as I never saw it!!

[Smokjbc]

Post the question back as I never saw it!!

 

I did not see it either,nor any of the replies on the new posts page (which is what I usually look at). I think the board has been having problems lately, although I agree there is not enough working discussion on here lately. Please repost.

[PSmitty]

Well, that sucks, Darci. I'm too inexperienced to have answered your question, but I was very interested and checking back to read what the knowledgeable people had to advise. It's also not really fair to those who DID answer, to delete your posts.

[RoseAmy]

Daci,

While I do agree about the direction alot of this board takes. I do feel that you are not being fair. I for one (can't speak for the others) but as for myself I was thrilled to see your post as I have a almost 9 month old terror that I've started on sheep. I was going to jump in and answer HOWEVER I run a horse farm..right now it is breeding season also lambing season..time is short and didn't have time to answer when I saw your post. I think most of the working dog people are in the same boat. Please repost and lets get a good discussion going about young dogs...

[Caroline Reichard]

Darci,

 

The stock-related posts are the only reason that I subscribe to his board. I might not have had a reponse to your post myself but would have enjoyed reading the responses of others. Many of us, especially during lambing season when time is short, probably only log on at most once a day. I certainly never saw your post before you deleted it.

 

CR

[1sheepdoggal]

Your right Paula, that rettracting the post wasnt fair. Im on my way out to work right now, but will re-post the question when I get home. I just stopped in this morning because one of my collies was exhibiting Silly BC behavior, and I wanted to see what to do about it!

But I will say, its not just my question that didnt get any respons that saddens me, in as much as the board appears to be taking on a much more pet geared membership and has lost its roots in working dog people and discussion, and I find that sad. I can easily scan through all the other non working posts, and even enjoy and participate in many of them, but any working dog posts anymore when there actually are any seem to get quickly buried as if they are yesterdays trash.

[Mark Billadeau]

Darci,

 

I saw you're original question and my first response was "it depends". It depends upon how far along your dog is, it depends upon if your dog is ready for more control, it depends; and I am not experinced enough to answer this question for you without seeing your dog in action.

 

So my question to you is; how would you prefer I react to your training questions in the future:

1. No response if I don't have anything useful

2. Respond with it depends or I must see your dog in action to answer

 

Mark

 

BTW my plan was to monitor this thread and if no one had responded by today with helpful suggestions I would have posted something. Your pissy attitude makes me NOT want to respond in the future.

[CLW1]

Never mind.

I retracted the question, because it is clear that the majority of board members are not interested or knowledgable in talking about working dogs.

I am saddened by the trend in which this forum seems to be taking, and that posts about dog friendly cars and what you do with you dogs while on vacation (no offence to those that posted those topics, just an observation) can take up 2 threads, while a working dog question cant get 2 answers. I will direct my working dog questions from here on out to my trainer, or the Ask An Expert" section. I can understand now, why the Boards have lost so many good working dog contributors.

Thank you to the two folks that did reply.

 

I don't post all that often but I do read the posts all the time and I have to say that I think you're being totally unfair. You posted less than 24 hours ago. When did you retract your post - last night? I don't think you gave people enough time to respond. I also thought when I read your post "why isn't she posting this in the ask an expert section too?". I read the responses and your responses to them and, unless I'm remembering them incorrectly, you responded with why you couldn't do this or that and what your sheep were like. It sort of seemed like you didn't like the responses you got. JMHO.

[dracina]

Hi Darci:

 

I read this traing forum (and with great interest, might I add)- but I do not have working sheepdogs. Furthermore, my dogs will probably never be (unfortunately) working dogs, since I live in Chicago. I do hope to have a small farm someday, but for now- no. However, I subscribed to the board because I want to LEARN about working a dog. I am just beginning to train my dogs on sheep, so I can not add anything relevent to your discussions here. But that does not mean that I do not listen to all that goes on here with earnest. I wish I was knowledgeable enough to participate in your discussions, but the fact is, I am not even close.

 

I understand what you are saying about the boards being somewhat ridiculous at times. But, I think that's why there are different forums: some people do only want to enjoy their dogs as pets, some compete in agility, some only are concerned with certain things that may seem unimportant to you. I like to think there is room for everybody and all types.

 

I do hope, though, that you post your original question, because I would like to read the responses (after I read the Silly BC behaviors, of course !).

[stockdogranch]

Hey, Darci. I agree the boards have been turning into a super drag lately. There have been very few working related posts, and those general training posts to which I have responded, thinking, gee, I have no problem getting a pup to lie down or to not nip my ankles or whatever, so perhaps I can contribute...well, apparently my methods for teaching such things are just not just "positively" oriented enough, as the responses to my posts on such matters seem to imply. Guess I need to go get a frikking clicker.

 

However, I was looking forward to your response, as last I looked, you were going to take out the lighter sheep, and use just the more dog-broke ones. Since I thought that sounded like a wise move, I didn't comment. So, I'll carry on as if the OP were still intact, and you hadn't removed it perhaps a bit prematurely (I, too, was pulling a lamb last night. One leg bent back at the shoulder).

 

So, does this pup have a fairly ok lie down? If so, you may need to use it to sort of "artificially" get him to understand keeping distance from the sheep. If you can use the lie down to get him in the right place (back off the sheep a bit), build a bit of distance between him and the sheep, then ask him to walk on up again, then he can feel what it's like to be in the right place, so then can begin to adjust himself accordingly, allowing you to face forward and just walk. Now, while I would rather just let the pup find that place on its own, with some pups, I think it's more expedient (and doesn't allow bad habits to develop), to make the pup be correct so it at least knows what we're looking for, if that makes sense,

 

A

[PSmitty]

But I will say, its not just my question that didnt get any respons that saddens me, in as much as the board appears to be taking on a much more pet geared membership and has lost its roots in working dog people and discussion, and I find that sad. I can easily scan through all the other non working posts, and even enjoy and participate in many of them, but any working dog posts anymore when there actually are any seem to get quickly buried as if they are yesterdays trash.

 

You know, every so often we go through this "I don't like the non-working/pet direction the board is taking" discussion. I see the point, but the fact remains that the board is fluid and changing. We go through times where it seems every post is about Fluffy and the dog park or Fluffy and his ball or whatever. And then people cry about how all the "working folks" are gone and how they understand why they don't post anymore. But it seems to me, that since we can't censor every post and tell the new folks not to post about Fluffy's cute new trick (and why should we?), that it's up to the "working folks" to read the threads they WANT and respond where they WANT. It's not the pet people's fault if the working people throw out the baby with the bathwater, i.e. don't respond to working/training posts because they're annoyed by the other type of posts. I hesitated to voice this, because I don't like it when it gets to be an us vs. them type of thing here. I think this board has plenty of room for both. *shrugs*

 

Personally, I don't think any of that rambling I just did applies to this situation, though. I just don't think the original post was up long enough for busy people to respond. JMO.

 

OK. Enough of that, back on topic.

 

So, does this pup have a fairly ok lie down? If so, you may need to use it to sort of "artificially" get him to understand keeping distance from the sheep. If you can use the lie down to get him in the right place (back off the sheep a bit), build a bit of distance between him and the sheep, then ask him to walk on up again, then he can feel what it's like to be in the right place, so then can begin to adjust himself accordingly, allowing you to face forward and just walk. Now, while I would rather just let the pup find that place on its own, with some pups, I think it's more expedient (and doesn't allow bad habits to develop), to make the pup be correct so it at least knows what we're looking for, if that makes sense,

 

A

 

Anna describes something that I've resorted to with Jack, the lying him down to get distance between him and the sheep and then asking him to walk up. He stays off the sheep much better with my trainer, but this is something I've tried with him myself.

[Debbie Meier]

I have a feeling that there are people that wait for more information to come out before posting, I should have, but put in the disclaimer "I have a totally different approach, so probably no useful advice here..." and " I'm guessing that he is in too close and needs to be back further..." which I concluded from your response that sounded to me that he would run the sheep over you when you turned your back, your response to my post appeared a touch touchy....followed by you later saying that he did have pace. Any way, I dismissed it at the time figuring that I was reading it wrong. Now that I got that off my chest, sorry everybody, it is hard to give clear advice without seeing the dog, you have to draw on your own expirences to visualize what you think might be going on.

 

Going back to the original post, How much is to much (I'm not addressing anyone personally, just using "you" as a collective term), I thought about it last night, IMO, too much is when the negative out weights the positive. My personal opinion is, circling and balancing to the handler has it's place, once the dog get's the concept the sooner you move to something else the better chance the dog will be receptive to something else, the longer you stay circling the more the dog will think that circling is the rule and that everything ends in a circle, it really shows up when people fetch alot, the dog wants everything to end in a fetch. The same holds true with any of the requirements, if all you do is fetch, your going to wrestle with getting your dog to stop before arriving at balance and have even a tougher time getting him to give you an inside flank. Drive to much and your dog stalls on his flanks and begs to define a line to take the sheep some place. I think there is a balance we are trying to achieve.

 

I was thinking about exceptions and rules, and how it effects the progress of training. In reality, an outrun-lift and fetch is an exception, yeah you start with it at a trial, but after it is executed it's all short flanks and drives, so having my dog thinking that circling and/or balancing to me are what he is suppose to do is going to inhibit my training progress.

 

The rule of thumb I've been trying to operate under, if it comes easy don't do it much, work on the tougher stuff and give the dog something easy if they need some encouragement. My dogs naturally hunt balance and easily get in the habit of balancing on me, so letting them have long flanks and fetching to me creates fetching monsters that begin hunting short cuts to get to a point where the sheep are coming my way. It's a lot easier to work on my stops, flanks and drives from different positions then throw in a fetch here and there then to let them think that fetching is the rule. There are two sets of rules that I'm trying to establish, the first is how I want the stock handled during each requirement and the second is obey my command not anticipate what I want you to do. Now don't think I want mechanical dogs, I don't, in the end I want a dog that goes left and right when I tell it to, and stops and walks up when I tell it to, how it handles the sheep while executing those commands is left to the dog based on what I taught him I was expecting, the more natural the dog the less hazard control that I have to run.

 

I made some interesting discoveries this past year, why was my dog having a tough time driving off of me, because I allowed every fetch to turn into another fetch as the sheep went past me instead of having him drive the sheep past me, stopping then flanking around and setting a new line. Why would he drive the sheep away from me when he thought the rule was fetch? This also fed into his desire to hold stock up, basically if the stock were not enroute to me they needed to be stopped and sent that way, I was allowing what came natural to him, making it harder to teach him the requirements that he was uncomfortable with. Also, Sharon's dog was not getting the concept of rate while driving and would blow through the sheep, she had done alot of fetching and circling, she spent the first two years of training just doing that only concerned with getting through a course via fetching. It dawned on me, he was rushing through so that he could get to the other side and fetch them to her. Once we made it clear that his drive was not going to be allowed to turn into a fetch, but rather that he needed to keep the sheep under control, balancing them himself, on a defined line he started to rate. I think that when the dog gets fixated on what he wants to do that he loses his feel for the sheep, it get's to be "get there at all costs".

 

Any way, I went on and on and probably shouldn't have tapping into a lot of stuff that probably does not apply.

 

Deb

[Debbie Meier]

BTW, Stockdog Journal came yesterday, good article on pace by Victoria Long.

 

Deb

[cgt]

Regarding: how much is too much, circling and wearing.

 

It depends. People tend to do this too much, IMHO. But without seeing

what is going on...

 

Regarding: the ratio of working/training posts to the posts on, uh, other stuff...

 

I think a lot of serious working stockdog people have a look at this venue.

I think a very small fraction of them take the trouble to discuss training issues.

The reason, at least in part, is that it is really, really, really, hard to know what is happening

in any given situation without seeing it. You could have 500 posts on why a dog grips in this or that situation,

or why a dog flanks too wide, or whatever, when an expert could likely pinpoint the issue

in 30 seconds *if they could just SEE what is happening*.

 

It seems to me it's so much easier for people to discuss their fur baby's anal glands than it is to

decode a stockdog training issue over the internet. No matter how the question is posed, or how the answer is phrased,

it's just such a terrible way to solve stockdog problems the result is often not valuable enough to justify all the effort.

This is my theory on why the boards' discussions are as they are.

 

Still, my small hat is off to those that take on the very challenging role of giving advice on stockdog matters.

I certainly avoid doing it.

(Not that my advice would be all that valuable, but you know what I mean.)

 

charlie

 

ETA: I somehow missed Mark's post, which seems to hit the same points more succinctly.

[stockdogranch]

And, Charlie, just how are your furbaby's anal glands?

 

A

[cgt]

And, Charlie, just how are your furbaby's anal glands?

 

A

 

Bite me, Anna.

[Tea]

Where have all the working folks gone?

 

This working folk and tired sheepdogs are lambing/kidding

 

Trying to make ends meet.

 

Separating ewes and month old lambs to milk ewes to make cheese, every evening.

Catching and Teaching first year ewes to stand and be milked in stanchion, every morning.

 

Catching, holding, in this pen or that,

 

Taking older lambs and flock out to browse loose,

 

Catching ewes in labour to bring into jugs to lamb.

 

Cleaning feeding watering checking repairing fences, selling sheep, selling locker lambs for fall

 

 

 

===============================================================

I don't mind pet folks

 

I like to read the posts on training and trailing

[bcnewe2]

I don't have any ideas for you but when I read your post I was thinking that I've been in that same spot so was looking forward to hearing the answers.

Hope you repost and get answers.

[OurBoys]

I wish I was knowledgeable enough to participate in your discussions, but the fact is, I am not even close.

Same here, Darci. I wish I could participate more myself but I still enjoy reading what other people ask and the responses they get. Thanks in advance for reposting.

 

This might be totally off the wall but since a couple of people have mentioned how it would help if they could see it what was happening, would it be possible to get some video of what you're posting about? I wouldn't have any answers to your question(s) but having a visual would help me understand the question(s) you're asking. (I hope that made sense.)