JaderBug Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 There are a lot of really great suggestions here, guess it's just going to take some time. I definitely know the difference between clockwise and counter-clockwise, it's just recalling it in a hurry that's my biggest problem. Guess it's just going to take time. This may be weird (I think it's funny actually!) but playing this game might be helping me a little bit. It's a sheep herding game that I think I posted on here a long time ago, but I find I am saying "away" and "go bye" as I drag my mouse around to flank around the flock. It's a fun (albeit pointless) game, y'all should check it out My boss just told me the other day that he's heard of schools not teaching cursive handwriting because of the use of computers, and they are only teaching printing instead of the beautiful art of "handwriting." I think that's incredibly sad. This is really upsetting... I can remember when I was little I looked forward so much to learning cursive so much I started to learn it by myself a grade or two earlier than I was supposed to- I would actually get in trouble by my teachers because I was writing cursive before I was supposed to. Granted I'm pretty sure I stopped using cursive by the 5th grade, but I really did look forward to learning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 There are a lot of really great suggestions here, guess it's just going to take some time. I definitely know the difference between clockwise and counter-I can remember when I was little I looked forward so much to learning cursive so much I started to learn it by myself a grade or two earlier than I was supposed to- I would actually get in trouble by my teachers because I was writing cursive before I was supposed to. Granted I'm pretty sure I stopped using cursive by the 5th grade, but I really did look forward to learning it. In college I had a friend who never learned to print. He went to a Catholic school and said the nuns never taught printing, only cursive. So for me the right/left thing is confusing because if you, say, send the dog away--its first movement is off to the right, but as it continues around (that darn clock!), the movement eventually is to the left , at least to my addled brain. argghhh! And to my mind the dog is always moving to its right (I don't view the dog's movement in relation to myself or anything else, just to itself--that is, its previous position), no matter where it is on the field! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 You can always order these from Border Collies In Action. Many years ago, I got a pair for my friend. LOL. BUT they worked. The pic is reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Sorry, it is true. There is a young lady that lives in our area who comes to walk the dogs from time to time. She has no idea how to tell time unless it is digital. She has no idea what clockwise and counter clockwise may be. Eek! well that does explain some of the troubles college students are having learning physics (vectors, torque, magnetism, etc.). You could also use CW for tighten, CCW for loosen, though I suppose no one uses screwdrivers either anymore, to remember that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 You could also use CW for tighten, CCW for loosen, though I suppose no one uses screwdrivers either anymore, to remember that way. Doesn't everyone just say, "Righty tighty; lefty loosey"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Jader, sit down with a pencil and paper. Draw a circle, that is a clock. Mark an X in the middle of the circle, that is your sheep. Put two X's at 6:00, that is you and your dog. Put an X at 12:00, that is your balance point. Now send your dog on an outrun to fetch the sheep. If you send the dog clockwise that is what command. If you send the dog anti-clockwise that is what command. Since the vast majority of the time you will be facing the sheep and your dog will be at some point in front of you, you can picture everything happening inside a big clock. Don't think in terms of right or left because you will need to calculate which command that will be for the dog and it will slow your thinking. If you send the dog clockwise he will move away from you to your left but to get to the balance point he will need to come back right, too much thinking and translation. In reality there is no right or left but no matter where you are standing there is always a clockwise and anti-clockwise, it never fails, it can't. Try to use the word come-bye instead of go-bye, it will help later when you want to send your dog off balance. You are not screwing up your dog he will do what he is told, you are screwing up yourself by trying to translate to right and left. If you have noticed that your dog has gone in the wrong direction from what you intended there is a chance he is deciding for himself which direction to go and that will the vast majority of the time be the shortest route to the sheep. When you give or get a wrong direction use your correction command and ask for a lie-down, change your balance point and send the dog again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Don't think in terms of right or left because you will need to calculate which command that will be for the dog and it will slow your thinking. If you send the dog clockwise he will move away from you to your left but to get to the balance point he will need to come back right, too much thinking and translation. In reality there is no right or left but no matter where you are standing there is always a clockwise and anti-clockwise, it never fails, it can't. DTrain, Different strokes...L/R doesn't screw ME up, nor do they slow me down as the folks who compete against me can probably attest to, so your absolutes are a little over the top aren't they? From all the people I've talked to who have had difficulty remembering their flank commands, the most common reason for the confusion is trying to shift back and forth between where their dog is moving in relation to them vs. where the dog is moving in relation to itself or the stock. At any rate, if I send my dog clockwise (to its left) as in your comments above it's not moving to my left but to my right, at least when the dog is balancing the sheep to me, whereas on the drive it would be moving toward my left hand when asked to move clockwise, as you suggest. Hence my constant suggestions not to see the dog's movement in relation to the handler, since it changes between fetching and driving. I must live in an alternate reality--the one where right and left work just fine (if you always think of the dog's or stock's right or left and leave the human out of the picture). Rachel, Do what works for you. You may even come up with a different "system." It doesn't matter as long as it enables you to consistently send your dog in the direction you want. Laura, I certainly still use "righty tighty and lefty loosey" for any number of reasons around the farm.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 You are correct, I do what works for me and my dogs and I am passing along what does work for me and the suggestion to give it a try. I don't see anything in left and right when I am working with the dogs so I have a different vision and sense of things than you, they are not wrong, I get the job done and it works for me. I really don't care how the job gets done as long as it works for the person doing the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I certainly still use "righty tighty and lefty loosey" for any number of reasons around the farm.... I do that all the time too! My mom overheard me saying that once, I don't think she'd ever heard it before, so I think she thought I was a little crazy or something. Anybody use their knuckles to remember the days in the months? The "30 days has September" rhyme never worked for me because I could never remember it, but the knuckles work! ETA: Nothing like veering my own topic a little more off-course... but in all reality there are a lot of great suggestions here, some of the biggest help is realizing that I'm not the only one in my boat. Thanks everyone!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I certainly still use "righty tighty and lefty loosey" for any number of reasons around the farm.... I've never been able to get that one figured out, I say it to myself, twist my hand trying to re-related, but for some reason my brain does not grasp it, so I just figure if it doesn't turn or won't thread on just go the other way. (threading the hose onto the hydrant gets me everytime) I was thinking about describing draws to another person, I relate that to me not the dog, if I described sheep that were heavy to the right they would be heavy to the dogs right when driving but heavy to the dogs left when fetching. Putting more thought into the left/right of the dog, I don't even think left/right, it's more that I've replace left/right to come-bye/away, if a dog turns left my mind immediately registered come-bye not left (when it registers), this was a direct jump from clockwise/counter clockwise. Maybe it's different for me due to never using left/right for anything aside from confusing myself due to dyslexia and being selectively ambidextrous, athletically right handed (throwing a ball, shooting a basket, shooting a gun, using a hammer) and my right eye is my lead eye but left handed as far as writing, eating, leather carving etc, btw my dogs and horses are all left handed, which is strange, I would think that I would favor going to the right (athletic side), but I suppose I might have trained myself to over compensate (hmm..., maybe I should think about that one too much). If someone asked me what come-bye is my mind immediately jumps to clockwise around the stock, then I have to think about that it would be to the dogs left, because my first thought would be to look at my right hand and say right. Hows that for confusing??? Hey, I wonder if that's because if I wanted my horse to go clockwise I would pick him up and lead him out with my right hand so even though the dog would be starting out to his left he would be in his right lead just like my horse. BTW, I discovered that when my dogs are getting a good grip on their directions I can flank them around Wayne in his recliner, oh does he hate it when I do that. Also, if I give them a flank command without a reference point they will actually step to or lean to the direction I gave them, they seem to understand it's their left or right, so I guess that's the most important part. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 sit down with a pencil and paper. Draw a circle, that is a clock. Mark an X in the middle of the circle, that is your sheep. Put two X's at 6:00, that is you and your dog. Put an X at 12:00, that is your balance point ... ... depending on where the draw is. One reason I don't like introducing the "clock" idea is because it gives people the idea that 12:00 is always balance ... and, in reality, it rarely is. I agree with Julie. Once I started seeing everything in relation to the dog's left and right, it simplified it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 BTW, I discovered that when my dogs are getting a good grip on their directions I can flank them around Wayne in his recliner, oh does he hate it when I do that. Also, if I give them a flank command without a reference point they will actually step to or lean to the direction I gave them, they seem to understand it's their left or right, so I guess that's the most important part. I try to do this with Jade when we're playing Frisbee- if I've thrown it to her and she didn't see where it went, I try to send her 'go bye' or 'away' to go to the Frisbee, but she just looks at me like I've got worms coming out of my head. Maybe it's because she hasn't got anything to go around Hopefully she will get to that point sometime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeyDogs Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I suppose no one uses screwdrivers either anymore, to remember that way. They all use power screwdrivers now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Jader, I know I am going to sound like a stick in the mud, but I would never give her working commands when there is no stock present. The main reason being is because when you have a blind outrun (where she can't see the sheep), and you say "Come bye" ... you want her to trust, undoubtedly, that there are sheep out there and she needs to find them, rather than deciding there are no sheep and that you must mean "go find the Frisbee" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Anybody use their knuckles to remember the days in the months? The "30 days has September" rhyme never worked for me because I could never remember it, but the knuckles work! I DO! We learned it college - accounting major - to help calculate depreciation, etc. This has been a good topic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Jader, I know I am going to sound like a stick in the mud, but I would never give her working commands when there is no stock present. The main reason being is because when you have a blind outrun (where she can't see the sheep), and you say "Come bye" ... you want her to trust, undoubtedly, that there are sheep out there and she needs to find them, rather than deciding there are no sheep and that you must mean "go find the Frisbee" ... Good point, I didn't think of it that way before. Guess I'll have to fetch the lost frisbee myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Totally agree with not using stock commands without stock. Although I know someone it works for. You can train her to hunt up the frisbee, just don't use flank commands. Doesn't everyone just say, "Righty tighty; lefty loosey"? tongue.gif I drive my hubby crazy when I use this. He quotes some math formula (r cross something), I'm like, oh yeah, that's very mnemonic. I do more driving on my wee farm than fetching, so Ted's usually working the sheep away from me. Sorry DTrain, the clock visual totally doesn't help. To be honest, what *I* do is take my hand and curve it around the sheep and that triggers my memory of the whistle command I need. Then I recall which verbal command that it. Clockwise is not "come bye" to me, but "Whee-woo-whee." I don't know why I have to physically move my hand to help, but it works when I'm stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Becca, It sounds like you're using a modified (customized?) version of Robin's method. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 ... depending on where the draw is. One reason I don't like introducing the "clock" idea is because it gives people the idea that 12:00 is always balance ... and, in reality, it rarely is. I agree with Julie. Once I started seeing everything in relation to the dog's left and right, it simplified it for me. Me too (and I am totally directionally challenged in most respects...), but thinking in terms of the dog's left and right helps me a lot (though I still kind of use the clock metaphor--I think of it in terms of the left leg "pulling" the minute hand in a sense and the right "pushing" the minute hand backwards--I'm sure that imagery won't work [or make sense] for everyone, but once I attached the dog's left and right leg to the minute hand in my own pea-brain, I tended to make far fewer flank errors) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Jader, I know I am going to sound like a stick in the mud, but I would never give her working commands when there is no stock present. The main reason being is because when you have a blind outrun (where she can't see the sheep), and you say "Come bye" ... you want her to trust, undoubtedly, that there are sheep out there and she needs to find them, rather than deciding there are no sheep and that you must mean "go find the Frisbee" ... Your right, you probably shouldn't do it, I shared it as a discovery or a clue that the commands were registering as something other then just conversation between you and the dog not thinking about people trying to teach their dog the command by going around or to other objects. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Me too (and I am totally directionally challenged in most respects...), but thinking in terms of the dog's left and right helps me a lot (though I still kind of use the clock metaphor--I think of it in terms of the left leg "pulling" the minute hand in a sense and the right "pushing" the minute hand backwards--I'm sure that imagery won't work [or make sense] for everyone, but once I attached the dog's left and right leg to the minute hand in my own pea-brain, I tended to make far fewer flank errors) Now that warped my brain trying to get around that one... Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeyDogs Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 ^^^^^^^ What she said! Yowzer! my head hurts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Jader am I wrong in understanding that you and your dog are new to herding and you are now in the learning process, if I am wrong please ignore this. I have been thinking about this. I can't think in terms of right and left. No matter how I picture it I think in terms of a clock and the balance point is in fact always 12:00 because I set it that way. I am talking about controlled practice sessions and in real work things can be quite different. This is getting more complicated than I thought it might. Find whatever works for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Left and Right works for me ;-) and I don't think I've ever really had a problem with flanks, other stuff yeah ;-) but not flank directions. When I first started out, my trainer used the clockwise, counterclock wise, and that always seemed to confuse me more... Way right, Come left, seems a lot easier for me to grasp. And like Julie said, (I think) I think of it from the dog's perspective, as being or going left or right. oh, and ETA, I do know how to use a regular clock LOL Betty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 and the balance point is in fact always 12:00 because I set it that way How do you do that? Do you stand in one place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.