What does it take to get there?

[JaderBug]

I was just curious... to those who have, will, or aspire to compete in the Finals, what is your opinion on what it takes to get there, from both the handler's end and the dog's end? What did/does your road to Finals competition look like?

[kelpiegirl]

Just from my ne'er been there, probably ne'er will be, your question is rather like "How did it go writing War and Peace?" :D

[Mark Billadeau]

I was told this rule of thumb when I started; it takes a handler about 10 years of experience and a dog about 5 years to become competitive in open. You need to be competitive in open to earn enough points to get into the finals in open.

[SoloRiver]

Do you mean just to qualify, or to make it to the finals of the finals?

 

Other than being willing to invest the time, it appears to be very beneficial to raise and keep significant numbers of sheep. Weekend warriors are not, for the most part, going to make it past the prelims. I suppose this should be obvious, but it may not be.

 

You also have to have the right dog (assuming that you are a good enough handler). This means either being willing to have lots and lots of dogs, if you keep everyone you acquire, or to move dogs on when they do not work out.

 

Both of these criteria work against hobbyists, but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed with Jett.

[Sue R]

A lot of handler/dog teams may accumulate sufficient qualifying points to go to Finals, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are qualified to run in the Finals, if you get my meaning. Some teams gain points at trials and venues that do not prove their capability of being able to compete at the National level, much less have a chance to make it to the semis or to the final round.

 

On the other hand, there are handler/dog teams that can get a boatload of stockwork done but would likely never win an Open class.

 

Good question!

[appyridr]

I was just curious... to those who have, will, or aspire to compete in the Finals, what is your opinion on what it takes to get there, from both the handler's end and the dog's end?

 

Excellent question! Perhaps by looking at the handlers/dogs in the final, your question can be partly answered.

 

Alasdair McRae's Nap 7 yr.old imported from Scotland as a 4? yr.old & had won a Scottish District Nursery in '04. Eileen Stineman's Star is 8 & has a well known history.

Patrick Shanahan's Riggs is 7 and while bred by Diane & co-owned, he is of Patrick's line.

Bill Berhow's Mike is 5 and sired by his Sid who I think is Scrimgeour lines.

Tom Wilson's Sly is 6 and sired by Michelle Howard's Imp. Spot X Nell

Haley Howard's Ross is 6 by Michelle's Spot X Joni Swanke's Belle. Haley's Bodie is 5 sired by her Ross

Scott Glen's Maid is 5 & sired by Haley's Ross out of a bitch that is Scott's line. Scott's Nursery Ch, Don is out of Eileen's Star

Kathy Knox's Tweed at 10 is one of the oldest and sired by Bob, another past N.Ch.

Derek's Jen is 4, not bred by him, maybe bought as a pup or yearling?

Amanda Millikin's Ethel is the oldest at 10 & bred by Amanda

 

All of the above handlers would be considered 'professionals' or breeders or long time 'big hats'. Most make their living training dogs, teaching clinics, judging trials, or breeding dogs.

The next group are handlers I don't know much about or if they are 'pros' but I would bet they all have & work daily with sheep and/or cattle:

Bud Boudreau is a long time handler & rancher from S.D. His 6 yr.old Sam is home bred.

Lavon Calzacorta from Idaho's Tess is 6 and bred by Don Helsey.

Daniel Keeton of CO's York is 5. Bred by Joni Swanke's Chip X Belle. Interestingly York qualified with just over 15pts. some of which came from a big arena trial.

Allen Mills of TX's Sis is 3 and also ran in Nursery. She is sired by Amelia Smith's Price.

Patricia McRae's Max is 8, sired by Vergil Holland's Scot.

Last but not least, my good friend Joe Haynes from WA. His Rain is 9 & was bought as an Open dog a few years ago. Joe is fairly new to the sport having run Nov/Nov only about 6 yrs.ago & moved to Open in 2005 I think. He smartly bought trained dogs and once in Open has qualified for every finals since the last Klamath.

 

So a couple things I noted about these folks who are representative of all the handlers who qualified:

they all have their own farms/sheep.

they mostly have dogs from well known top proven lines & about half are home bred. A wide variety of lines.

dog's ages vary - one 3 yr.old, 2-4 yr.olds, 3-5 yr.olds, 4-6 yr.olds, 2 at 7 and 8, 1-9, 2-10 yr.olds. so 6 are 5 & under while the other 11 were 6+.

dedication and time spent learning as in any other discipline will achieve success, majority of handlers have at least 10 yrs. experience and some quite a lot more.

 

It would also be interesting to compare between east and west Finals...I wonder if the 17 finalists are often mostly the same people, while the prelims have a large difference?

 

Just a few observations, regards Lani

[Debbie Meier]

This is from an aspire point of view, gotta remember we don't know what we don't know....and you really won't know until you get there. Something I am struggling with is patience, the patience to wait on the dogs to mature, season and develop. And also trying to avoid the temptation to settle with what we have.

 

Don't know if we will ever get there, but the steps I'm looking at are as follows.

 

1. Get a dog trained to the point where we can successfully execute open level work at home, he's gotta have lot's of handle and a willingness to work with me. Ideally I'm looking for my dog to go and be where I expect him to when I ask him to be there. I want to be able to trust that he will make good decisions on his own with the livestock. Lot's and lot's of stock time.

 

2. Proof our work by going to new places on different livestock,

 

3. Then it starts costing money...Start paying our dues by entering events and getting on the road seasoning, can be local, first by being happy with completing the course eventually placing high enough to earn points, if we fail to progress go back home and work some more, trying to identify and problem solve our shortfall.

 

4. Providing that we found ourselves qualified, compare the events we have attended to the work required at finals, not all events are equal workwise to the finals, actually most aren't that I would go to. Might need to put plans on hold until we get more seasoning, or might just say heck, let's wing it!! Chalk it up as a learning expirence.

 

During this whole ordeal I have to remind myself that sometimes your the windshield and sometimes your the bug. No matter how good I think my dog is there is going to be bad days, but also try to be honest with myself, he just may not be that great. At any point we could end up scraping and starting over with a young dog, we already have young dogs that we are bringing up. Some have already been dropped from the program, just not going to cut it. Yes, be willing to go through lots of dogs, but hopefully you get lucky and can get it done with the first. I'm actually begining to wonder if even the average working bred dog can cut it, yeah they can do the work, but competitively enough doing work comparable to finals???

 

Other things that I think that some people just getting going don't realize is understanding what the judge is looking for, what is good work, what is poor work, what little things will cost you a bunch. I always have to laugh at Wayne, "but they went through the drive panel"....yeah but you sent your dog the wrong way and he crossed over, they didn't stay on line, you didn't do anything to help him get them back on line and then you let him stop the sheep in the middle of the drive... it's a new world baby, this ain't no point time anything to get'er done showing that your dog has ability deal....ok, maybe he's going to stick to running cattle dog trials...

 

Ah yes...the journey continues.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

At the PA finals, when the finalists were introduced on the field, the one commonality was that they had all been running in open for 10 years, so what Mark says is correct. Even if you make it to open early in your career, there is no substitute for putting in time. It takes time and experience to learn to handle competitively at that level. As for dogs, a wide variety of dogs do well at the finals, so there's no one *type* needed. What you do need is a dog with confidence and a good partnership with its handler. The dog needs to have had plenty of mileage (so the whole new field, new sheep thing isn't even on the radar), and the team needs to perform consistently in general, but it's been my experience that handler error (lack of experience) is more likely to cause problems at that level than something the dog does.

 

In response to your second question, my road to my first finals (four years ago) had the way largely paved by a very good dog, who took care of me even when I made mistakes. She may even be a once-in-a-lifetime dog for me, and by the time I have enough experience under *my* belt to make me a truly competitive handler at the finals, she'll probably be too old, but that's the way it goes....

 

J.

[Lenajo]

If the destination is the only mark of success, then many of us should quit now.

 

If the journey is what matters to you - learning these dogs and this art without the boundaries of *your* life (money, time, the dogs you like and want to live with) - then you keep trying. And when and if you do win big, it will be worth all the more. And if you don't, there is nothing wasted and only good memories gained.

 

So what exactly does it take to get there? I'll put up a quote from Calvin Coolidge for that:

 

"All growth depends upon activity. There is no development physically or intellectually without effort, and effort means work.”

[Stoga]

If the destination is the only mark of success, then many of us should quit now.

 

If the journey is what matters to you - learning these dogs and this art without the boundaries of *your* life (money, time, the dogs you like and want to live with) - then you keep trying. And when and if you do win big, it will be worth all the more. And if you don't, there is nothing wasted and only good memories gained.

 

So what exactly does it take to get there? I'll put up a quote from Calvin Coolidge for that:

 

"All growth depends upon activity. There is no development physically or intellectually without effort, and effort means work.”

 

From all of us with a long journey ahead... thanks Wendy!

[Sue R]

That is good, Wendy. It is the journey that matters.

[appyridr]

> It is the journey that matters.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. My journey last weekend was farm sitting for a friend who was running a dog at the finals. I am one of those city-weekend hobbyists who loves an opportunity to do some real work. Well I sure got it last Sat!

I awoke to John dashing through the house saying there are dogs out with the sheep!!! (John owns all the sheep and has them pastured on various farms all over the area). So at different times of the year, there are different sheep here; ewes & lambs in spring, weaned market lambs in fall. So we run out and sure enough the lambs are scattered in different little fields and a big black dog is pacing around at the bottom of a field. While John is calling Animal Control, the dog escapes under a gate/fence and disappears through another field. I brought Blair with me so John asks me to help gather up the sheep. There are 6 in one field and three on the other side of the fence in an adjoining pasture. John walks those down the fenceline as I have Blair gently and carefully move the 6 down the fenceline too. I hold Blair steady & in check as these lambs are terrified and in shock from the dog attacks. I get these in the barnyard, then go into another small field the other side to collect 4 or 5 more lambs. They are hiding in the trees so Blair can't see them. I send him on a come bye anyway, he goes out and is looking but unable to spot them in the bush. I encourage him with another come bye and 'Look!' He finally is able to see them and cuts back into the trees, brings them out and....into the barn. Meanwhile John tried to walk one lamb out of the equipment shed that looked badly savaged - she didn't want to go, so he left her. Martha had told me that there were 15 lambs here but when I asked John he said he didn't remember if he had brought 14 or 15. We had 14 in the barn so guessed that was all. John left to get antibiotics from home and the farm truck to take the two injured lambs back to the main farm. I went back in the house to have my morning coffee & check the blogs for scores from the semi. About an hour later a neighbor phoned to say there was still one lamb left in the far field(where the 3 had been) and it was looking pretty distressed. So I got Blair out again and went to get it. I sent Blair from the middle field as he knows to go down and through the bottom gate to get in there. He picked up the lamb, then stopped and started looking around for more sheep which made me laugh...as he has never worked a single. So I gave him a steady and we carefully moved the lamb down the fenceline and through the gate. She then bolted towards the barn but ended up in the equipment shed with the other hurt one. (this lamb was pretty bloody too) I thought I would make one cautious attempt to move them both out from behind some hay equipment and into the barnyard with the others. It took some doing as Blair had to squeeze past a blade which he wanted to jump but I wouldn't let him as it was too close to the lambs and would spook them. Eventually he did it and sure enough it was just enough pressure to ease them out. We then carefully maneuvered them to gate and into the barn.

You can imagine how proud I was of my 'weekend trial' dog that was able to accomplish some very intricate tricky 'real' work! Blair is 7 yrs old and we have been trialing in Open for 3 years. We earned our first USBCHA points this year but no where near enough to go to Klamath. But are we enjoying the journey - oh YES!