Freeman 101 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 My son uses an electric wheelchair. One of his chores is dog walking, however, he cannot walk Freeman without me present because Freeman will bite the back tire. Freeman won't do this if I'm present. I've watched at a distance, and the biting seems to occur when the chair slows and makes turns ("hurry up boy and move on"?). He goes to the back of the chair and bites the back of the tire. He stops when the chair speeds up (stinker!). Any way, it would be great if I did not have to attend *every* walk, so I'm trying to brainstorm some type of 'environmental' correction, but my brain doesn't storm too well. Anyone have any ideas of anything I could put on or around the tire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Does Freeman respond to verbal corrections (aght or what are you doing or hey)? If he does and your son can give him a verbal, see if that will cause him to hesitate or stop, and then redirect him with a command and praise him for choosing to do right. If not, maybe you could work on teaching him that a verbal correction means to stop and try another behavior or wait for a command. I'm in rush to get off to work. I am sure someone will do a much better job at giving advice on this interesting habit. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 A quick fix may be to have him on a shorter leash that doesn't allow him to reach the back tire. Is your son holding the leash, or is it attached to the chair? If the latter, I'd certainly shorten it. If the former, I'd be more careful as you don't want Freeman jerking your son's arm out of the socket. I agree with Sue about the verbal correction as well. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Give the dog an incompatable behaviour. Teach a VERY reliable 'sit' then since you KNOW this will occure under certain circumstances, tell him to "sit". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 That's not an electric wheel chair, it's an electric sheep. Freeman is "gripping" and some people consider it unacceptable. I found a gentle leader halter works well with a gentle tug as he reaches the for the tire pulling him forward and away from the tire. The object is to teach Freeman to lead. For a tech solution try a Ruff Wear Web Master harness or pack with a liter of water for ballast and terach Freeman to pull a load, like a wagon or chair. Loading down a BC quite often makes them easier to control. The goal is to keep Freeman in front of the chair maintaining a slight tension on the harness/pack tow loop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Sorry, but border collies are clever enough to tell what's basically an inanimate object from a sheep or cow or any other animal. Gripping specifically applies to biting an animal (i.e., livestock), not other objects. He's misbehaving plain and simple. It has nothing to do with herding. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I found a gentle leader halter works well with a gentle tug as he reaches the for the tire pulling him forward and away from the tire. The object is to teach Freeman to lead. For a tech solution try a Ruff Wear Web Master harness or pack with a liter of water for ballast and terach Freeman to pull a load, like a wagon or chair. Loading down a BC quite often makes them easier to control. The goal is to keep Freeman in front of the chair maintaining a slight tension on the harness/pack tow loop. Hi. I've thought about using the head halter. The head halter would give my son an easier method of controlling Freeman's head. However, I've been in *lazy trainer* mode lately, and haven't taken the time to get him used to the GL. This is definitely a possibility, though. Julie: he's not holding the leash, the leash is instead attached to the handlebars which does give him more ability to get to that back tire. I'm going to look the chair over and see if I can find a better spot to attach the leash. About the verbal correction that both Julie and Sue mentioned: Freeman does respond well to verbal correction, but my son's speech is somewhat limited. I think my son's ability to say a sound or word consistently will be difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Give the dog an incompatable behaviour. Teach a VERY reliable 'sit' then since you KNOW this will occure under certain circumstances, tell him to "sit". Hi Pam. How are you? He does have a reliable sit (both a verbal and a hand signal), however, we would need to come up with a signal that was easy for my son to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Could your son use a shake can (an empty soda can with some penny in it and the tab-hole taped shut). If Freeman isn't a tad ahead or just next to the wheelchair, a sharp shake of the can. I think of that because your son cannot yell a command. And, if Freeman is heading for the back tire, hand signals wouldn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Can your son make one sound consistently - sort of like "anhh" that many of us use to tell the dog - stop that right now! It doesn't have to be a word, really. If your boy can just make that one sound, any sound, consistently and purposefully, Freeman can be taught to recognize it. If he has better hand control than vocal control, than maybe your boy can carry some little thing that makes the same noise every time it's pressed or squeaked, a squeaky toy would be perfect, in fact. A penny can, as Nancy suggested, might also work. Out of the box thinking alert - a short piece of say, pvc pipe, that your boy could hit his arm rest with, a clicker if you don't already use one, a bicycle bell, a small bicycle horn, there's got to be more things. I'll ponder on it. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Can your son speak? If so, the dog SHOULD sit for anyone IF he is trained to sit under any/most circumstances (disallowing for oncoming cars etc). Use Ian Dunbar's protocol for teaching a reliable sit. Your son can take part in the training with you backing him up. A GL might help if he has use of his hands, but teaching a reliable sit is much better. If speach is out of the question, then some consistant auditory sound for the sit. This would be better than a hand signal which could be missed if his head is below the chair. Give him some object that can make the sound consistantly. Some kids toy, or mechanical device that the dog is trained to mean sit to the sound. It would be great to have something small like fits on a key ring so he could attach it to the chair. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 bike horn? gentle leader won't have the dog in front if it's attached to the handles of the W/C. usually on a power chair there is little room in front except maybe for the area by the foot rests where they attach... but that is scary to me. What happens if the leash gets caught under the wheels...the dog will get dragged. Is it a power chair or scooter-type? As a Phys. Ther. assist. , I'm thinking your son would need to have pretty quick reflexes to stop the dog before the deed...and most(not all, depends on the disability) kids in power chairs are not speedy reflex wize. Freeman knows what he is doing since he doesn't do it when you are present. That means he can be taught not to do it, independently of what your son is or is not able to do or say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 Update? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 What if you rewarded Freeman for not biting the tires when you are out with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailrider Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 Well, I finally decided to give my suggestion. Get a bottle of vicks vaporub. Rub it on the tire where it is usually available when the dog tries biting. Most dogs don`t like the taste or smell of the vicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 bike horn? Is it a power chair or scooter-type? -------------------------------------- It's a power chair, Permobil to be specific. I've looked the chair over and the only safe place to attach the leash is the handlebars. This keeps the leash away from the tires. ======================== As a Phys. Ther. assist. , I'm thinking your son would need to have pretty quick reflexes to stop the dog before the deed...and most(not all, depends on the disability) kids in power chairs are not speedy reflex wize. Right. He doesn't have quick reflexes. He also has limited speech. ----------------------------- Freeman knows what he is doing since he doesn't do it when you are present. That means he can be taught not to do it, independently of what your son is or is not able to do or say. I've worked with him (Freeman) while I'm in the chair. I've walked with my son while walking Freeman. And it's all went well and then the behavior will reappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Well, I finally decided to give my suggestion. Get a bottle of vicks vaporub. Rub it on the tire where it is usually available when the dog tries biting. Most dogs don`t like the taste or smell of the vicks. This gave me a good laugh, and it's almost worth trying. But Im wondering how easy it would be to remove from the tires, keeping in mind that the chair comes indoors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Freeman... Just behave! you could put the vicks on the outer side of the tires closer to the center...it's the smell opposed to the taste that is repellent. I thought about suggesting Listerine sprayed on . I don't know if the petroleum is ok on the tire rubber, are they solid or air filled? on the other hand, if they are solid and Freeman does it, if your son makes the chair go faster, wouldn't Freeman eventually quit because he won't be successful in getting the tire. oh wait, he is a border collie.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Oh, I just had a better idea. What if you took a length of broom stick or dowel rod that would go under the arm rests across the seat on top of son's lap area, and looped the leash on that in the center and had your son hang on to the dowel on each side of the leash to keep it from moving too far from one side to the other...it would put Freeman out in front, and son would need to be careful not to run him over if he stopped to sniff or do his duties. there generally is space between the top of the arm rests and the rest of the side panel on many models... I should just go look up the chair and see what more ideas I can come up with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 mmm, ok, does he have the model with the bigger wheels in back or the smaller? I see my arm /broomstick/leash idea isn't going to work on the fancier newer models... I'm wondering if the tire is sometimes making squeaky noises that Freeman is tuning into since it is on turns. (Speeding up isn't safe there either... scratch that idea) If it's the larger tires in back, they look like they are aired filled and maybe if one is lower than the other and making it make noise? I do wonder if your original thought is correct. Perhaps he thinks he is herding his machine or kid and thinks a gripe is appropriate... to which the herding people would need to address on a behavioral level. it would be nice to figure out something that makes it not nice for the dog to do that, (Vick's)but I think it is going to take a training avenue to get to the solution for you. (Sorry, rusty here, been out of the biz for 10 years now) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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