I'm doing something wrong!!

[Roxadee]

I still haven't calmed myself!! Let me tell you all what just happened and then you all can tell me what it is I did wrong. I have 43 acres that is ideal for walking Bella and Gracie, I have waled them together ever since Grace has arrived, we have a routine of sorts, I walk them down the road to the acres and unleash Grace where she then starts to enjoy herself by running and walking, never once has she acted like she wanted to hurt Bella, until today, yea, today!!! Grace runs over Bella not once, not twice but like 6 or 7 times, she connected 3 times the last time hurting Bella to the point of yelping.

 

I'm good to Grace, that dog has had training, she is loved, I've done it all and still doing, I can't think what it is I'm doing wrong! Why did she want to hurt Bella??? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[gcv-border]

I don't know why (well, I do have my thoughts but others can probably explain better than I), but I do know that Bella would have been put on a long line after the 2nd attempt, and then if she tried it again (try #3), I would prevented another attack by pulling back on the long line before Bella got to Grace and then would have given her a "come to Jesus" lecture. In the future, I would not be allowing Bella free (off the long line) for at least 2-3 weeks, plus she would not be permitted any additional episodes. Additional episodes means another scolding and the time frame on the long line would be extended.

 

It is not fair to Gracie. Protect your dog.

[urge to herd]

I'm with Jovi - the first thing to do is not allow it to happen again. Ever. Bella may be getting a little big for her britches - how old is she now? And definitely don't put up with those types of shenanigans again.

 

I wouldn't be letting Bella have as much freedom in the house for a while, either. Dogs go through 'testing' stages, just like kids do. Impose some stricter rules about what she can and can not do.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[Maralynn]

How is she trying to hurt your other dog? I'm wondering if this is just rowdy puppy play. It still needs work and training (I also would have put her on a long line/settled her down right away), but you have a puppy. I'd be surprised if this is nefarious.

[Roxadee]

Gracie bites at Bella but it's more like play trust me I'm watching like a bump, I correct that behavior but Gracie never had stopped, Bella from the beginning didn't want anything to do with Gracie, and that stands today. Bella is only five pounds of that. I'm telling you all this was out of the blue and Gracie meant to hurt her.

[CptJack]

How is she trying to hurt your other dog? I'm wondering if this is just rowdy puppy play. It still needs work and training (I also would have put her on a long line/settled her down right away), but you have a puppy. I'd be surprised if this is nefarious.

 

This is my question.

 

Is this literally running over the puppy and sending her tumbling or is she attacking the puppy? Definitely long line and settle and interrupt and work on impulse control and pulling away, but if what she's doing is trampling the puppy, for want of another word, because of energy and exuberance it is a far different situation from becoming aggressive with the puppy.

 

 

[GentleLake]

I'm not quite understanding just what it is that Grace did. Was it wild play that resulted in her bowling Bella over? Was it rough play where she connected with her mouth? Or was it aggressive? I really can't tell from your description whether she wanted to hurt Bella or if was just an unfortunate effect of wild play and lack of self control gone wrong.

 

Whatever it was, yes, after the second time she shouldn't have had an opportunity to do it again. Each time she gets away with it, it's becoming more firmly established because it's self-rewarding.

 

I think it's probably past time for you to be looking to hook up with a good trainer who can evaluate this pup and assess what's going on with her, preferably in your home for at least a couple one one one sessions. Since none of us here can see what Grace is doing, it's pretty hard for us to know what you're dealing with.

 

A trainer familiar with border collies would be preferable because some people, even otherwise good trainers, just don't understand some of the behaviors that result from the herding genetics.

 

In the meantime, heed what others are saying and don't allow it to happen again. Exercise the dogs separately and if that's just not possible, don't give Grace the privilege of being off leash until she's earned it.

[Roxadee]

Gracie bites at Bella but it's more like play trust me I'm watching like a bump, I correct that behavior but Gracie never had stopped, Bella from the beginning didn't want anything to do with Gracie, and that stands today. Bella is only five pounds of that. I'm telling you all this was out of the blue and Gracie meant to hurt her.

[Roxadee]

I have walked them together like this since I've owned Gracie she has never never never done this not even close

[GentleLake]

How do you know Gracie was deliberately trying to hurt Bella?

 

Please remind me how old Gracie is again? There's something called inter-bitch aggression that's far from unheard in border collies, but IIRC Gracie seems rather young to be exhibiting it yet.

[Maralynn]

So Gracie is a Border Collie youngster and Bella is a 5# full grown dog? And Gracie is biting at Bella?

[Roxadee]

Yes Bella is a five pound 7 year old chihuahua, gentle, doesn't bark, she has always been old it seems, never bites even play bite, she has an old soul. Gracie was born Dec 12th, 2015, she is going on 28 pounds, I have spent my last dime on her, getting her was $750.00 ,shots and all the other Vet bills round up to around another $600.00 not to mention pens and the usual, I have followed everyone's advise to the letter, including reading everything there is to read about Border Collies, I love Grace and have had my dream come true buying her. My husband loves her and we have zero children. Bella didn't like Grace from the beginning but just stayed away from her never wanting to interact, I tried my hardest to get them to like each other but no go.

 

I walk Grace on leash to the 43 acres, Bella never has had a leash, never needed one for her. We get there and we have done this from the moment I bought Grace I let her go and she will go a bit ahead, sit and wait on me then go ahead again, running around , jumping over things , having a ball. Grace and Bella have never not once had an incident, they get along better out there than they do inside the house, for the most part Grace stays away from Bella always has , they just do their own thing. I put Grace back on the leash to go back and everyone's happy. This time something in Grace must have just snapped...Grace seen Bella ahead of her and took off like a rocket to stomp her, turned around and did it again, I ran after Grace calling for her at the same time but she wouldn't stop, Bella was running away when Grace did it again, Grace would stop and turn looking at her to do it again, as fast as she could looking right at her ignoring me stampeded her again making sure she got her. The last time Bella couldn't get up and was yelping I finally got there because they were running away from me....correction Bella was running away from Grace not being fast enough she got the worst end of the deal,

 

Bella cried for awhile after I picked her up, unusual for her she can take a lot before making any kind of painful sound, my Bella was hurt but she is okay now.

[Roxadee]

Its really hard to explain how Grace was with Bella, she didn't look like she was playing to me, it looked deliberate and I knew Bella was in trouble, I ran as fast as I could but Bella in her panic kept running ahead making her an easier target for Grace. I can't afford a trainer to come to my home, I am also a Union Laborer and I start back to work this Tuesday. Maybe I should think about giving her to someone who knows more about Border Collies than myself, I don't believe its Grace it has to be me. I'm the one who is supposed to train her and I am obviously not doing a good job, in fact I'm doing such a lousy job I have put my beloved Chihuahua at risk.

[CptJack]

Dogs who are being aggressive do not trample other dogs. That isn't saying what happened was right, but they just don't. Aggression involves teeth. Always. This is not aggression, now stop being mad at your dog because she didn't 'go after' Bella. AT ALL.

Odds are high that Grace was trying to run and play and/or control Bella's movement-slash-stop it because border collie and Bella's just small enough to go tumbling. This is a hazard when you have large and small dogs. It isn't aggression, it isn't malice - it's not, it's just not - but it is a hazard and you do have to handle it.

By working on impulse control, interrupting and controlling and separating and working on impulse control and having separate play times and calling off when she's excited or starts and doing the training to make that happen and long lines until then - and plain not letting it happen.

 

And I say this as someone with an 11lb dog, a 120lb dog, and yeah, the little dog got sent rolling a few times and she learned to steer clear WHILE I trained the big dog to call off and did a lot of separate play times for a long time.

 

But it isn't a failing on Grace's part, it isn't aggression, it isn't an attempt to hurt.

It's a situation YOU need to manage.

[Cass C]

I agree, Grace was not trying to hurt your other dog. She was chasing after Bella, because it was fun not maliciously. If Bella was still running when you tried to stop Grace she saw no reason to stop playing with the running dog. Like luckily there is a super easy solution to your issue.

 

A) Don't let them off leash together until Grace has better self control.

 

B ) Get a solid 'stop' and distance sit or down even while running teach her to stop and sit/down. Use toys and other moving things as distractions. All while Grace is on a long lead at first so she is being setup for success.

 

C) Teach a solid leave it with Bella. This is a 0 grey area. Leave it means leave it all the time. Put a leash on her if you have to. Start by telling her to leave it when she even glances at Bella. Then while Bella is walking around continue working on leave it until Grace can ignore her completely. Then take leave it outside and have her leave Bella while she is running. This will not be a quick process, so don't try to rush it.

[Gloria Atwater]

I totally understand how horrified and upset you are, but please, take some deep breaths and calm down.

One, understand that you didn't cause this. Two, understand that dog aggression does not involved "trampling." It involves posturing, pinning down and teeth. But given that you've been having trouble with Grace bothering Bella, I'd say it's more likely Grace is simply not respecting Bella.

Okay, maybe there's a better word than "respect," but I can't think of it. But the point is, I've seen dogs trample puppies and cats the same way - not out of aggression, but simply because they have no regard for the smaller creature. The "lesser" creature is not important enough for them to be careful. A more assertive dog than Bella would have put young Grace in her place long since, but since Bella is a gentle soul, Grace has not learned to treat her well.

So your job is to keep Bella safe and unhurt. At all costs. At all times. As you've seen, Grace can hurt Bella even without meaning to. A dog that tiny can be SO easily broken or injured. From now on, if you take them out together, keep Grace on a leash or long line. It DOES NOT MATTER why this happened. All that matters is that it never happens again. That is your job.

You have a tiny dog and a larger dog. You must manage them both. It takes work, but you can do it.

~ Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

 

C) Teach a solid leave it with Bella. This is a 0 grey area. Leave it means leave it all the time. Put a leash on her if you have to. Start by telling her to leave it when she even glances at Bella. Then while Bella is walking around continue working on leave it until Grace can ignore her completely. Then take leave it outside and have her leave Bella while she is running. This will not be a quick process, so don't try to rush it.

 

THIS!

[Maralynn]

Reading this, I get the sense that you were pretty shaken by what happened today because everything was so unexpected and your small dog could have been badly hurt. I would be in that situation. And it's frustrating when we've tried to do everything right and stuff still happens.

 

But, this doesn't sound like something that is bound to remain an issue. It sounds like an over stimulated teenage Border Collie being an over stimulated teenage Borer Collie. Stuff like that happens with this type of dog. My 6 y/o dog really bowled over my young dog when he was a little puppy (the difference was that he was into the game as much as she was).

 

You absolutely need to be proactive about it now because Bella could easily get hurt but I think that it is something that can be remedied and the above suggestions are exactly what I'd do, too.

[Roxadee]

You all are I'm positive ...right. I was ready to give her up, that had never entered my mind before and because of you all it has since left. Thank you all for getting right on this, I can't tell you how upset i was, hurt and discouraged. I will re-read this and apply. Grace couldn't be more loved, I didn't whip her, it's not a consideration, I don't believe in that, I wouldn't have brought it up at all but my sister in law said....did u whip her? Uh NO! she whips her dog when it runs away and is surprised it runs away. Anyway..back on subject....everyday I learn something from you all and now knowing it wasn't aggression I see things in a different prospective. It makes sense that Grace doesn't respect Bella, the pieces to the puzzle fit knowing that. Thank you again and I'm forever in your debt........Gracie appreciates you to.

[GentleLake]

I'm sorry this is probably going to sound harsh but IMO it needs to be said. I still think you need to find a trainer to work with you to help you understand Gracie's impulses and behaviors so that you can stop panicking and deal with them calmly and effectively as they occur. Loosing your cool when these things happen isn't helping you, Bella or Gracie. You weren't prepared for the kinds of what still sound to me like pretty normal border collie puppy shenanigans and you need some help learning how to deal with them appropriately. That's not a criticism; it happens to a lot of first time border collie owners, and most people eventually figure it out and the pups are pretty forgiving in the process. But you've not only got yourself and Gracie to consider, you've got to protect another very small and vulnerable dog as well.

 

IMO, unless a person is already very experienced, a good trainer is every bit as necessary an expense to plan for in raising a puppy as are the pens, crates, toys, food and vet bills. It really sounds to me like you're in over your head here and you need help now before Gracie gets bigger and even more out of control before Bella gets seriously hurt and/or develops behavioral issues of her own. IOW, you owe it to Bella every bit as much and probably even more than you do to Gracie and yourself.

 

So with the most well meaning and least judgemental way possible, my advice to you is to bite the bullet and find some way to afford to get some real time, in person help before things get worse. At just over 4 months old, Gracie hasn't even begun to enter the often difficult adolescent period.

 

In the meantime, don't give Gracie another opportunity to terrorize Bella, even if it's only rowdy play. Walk them separately, work on a leave it and supervise (or probably better yet separate) them until Gracie learns more appropriate behaviors.

 

I truly wish you and your dogs well . . .

[Roxadee]

I'm sorry this is probably going to sound harsh but IMO it needs to be said. I still think you need to find a trainer to work with you to help you understand Gracie's impulses and behaviors so that you can stop panicking and deal with them calmly and effectively as they occur. Loosing your cool when these things happen isn't helping you, Bella or Gracie. You weren't prepared for the kinds of what still sound to me like pretty normal border collie puppy shenanigans and you need some help learning how to deal with them appropriately. That's not a criticism; it happens to a lot of first time border collie owners, and most people eventually figure it out and the pups are pretty forgiving in the process. But you've not only got yourself and Gracie to consider, you've got to protect another very small and vulnerable dog as well.

 

IMO, unless a person is already very experienced, a good trainer is every bit as necessary an expense to plan for in raising a puppy as are the pens, crates, toys, food and vet bills. It really sounds to me like you're in over your head here and you need help now before Gracie gets bigger and even more out of control before Bella gets seriously hurt and/or develops behavioral issues of her own. IOW, you owe it to Bella every bit as much and probably even more than you do to Gracie and yourself.

 

So with the most well meaning and least judgemental way possible, my advice to you is to bite the bullet and find some way to afford to get some real time, in person help before things get worse. At just over 4 months old, Gracie hasn't even begun to enter the often difficult adolescent period.

 

In the meantime, don't give Gracie another opportunity to terrorize Bella, even if it's only rowdy play. Walk them separately, work on a leave it and supervise (or probably better yet separate) them until Gracie learns more appropriate behaviors.

 

I truly wish you and your dogs well . . .

It didn't sound harsh at all. I want to thank you for taking the time to write me and let me know your opinion. I agree with you however that I am indeed over my head here! Grace is unlike any other dog I have ever ever owned. I'm rather good with dogs if I do say so myself ...until I got Grace...wow, she is like no other. I wouldn't want to ever do her an injustice, its not my intention at all I assure you. I do not have the money as of this moment to afford a trainer, If I could afford one they would be here in a New York minute, no question about it. I believe I need one I really do. Grace is an amazing girl and I have never loved a dog like I love her, she is everything anyone could ever want in a dog and more, the more is where the problem is. I know its me and not her, I would never hurt Grace in any way shape or form, I didn't spank her , jerk her, but I did yell. In her defense she came to me then and let me put the leash back on her. I can't look at her without melting, ears pinned back, her licking my face. Trainer needed, but can't afford it. Is there one out there that works pro bono? I can afford it later but not now.

[teresaserrano]

I don't let Tess play with small dogs, and she's not that big herself, at 33 pounds. There's the odd exception of smaller dpgs that know her well, like her are hardy and feisty, those she can play with, but not the vast majority of small dogs. Is she agressive to them? No. But she is very intense in her playing. She loves to bump another dog and send him rolling. With a dog her size or bigger, and her being light, it's hard for her to succed, so it's all fun and games. If she does succed, generally the other dog will bump and roll her over too, all in good fun. But small dogs, it's easy for them to get hurt in such play. But it is play. Although she does have an intensity to her play that is more pronounced than every other dog I've had, it's play.

 

Intense play can turn into prey drive with the dog viewing the smaller dog as prey, but that involves bitting, not trampling.

[teresaserrano]

Just read Gloria's advice and I agree completely. You do sound confused and in a panic. If you can't afford a trainer, read and watch videos as much as you can (absolutely not the same, but it seems to me that you need to learn more about dog training and behaviour, and fast, so, better than nothing).

 

And stop panicking. When something with your dogs goes wrong, last thing they need is for you to panic. You don't have kids, do you? It's the same as raising kids, when they do something unacceptable one doesn't panic, cry, shout, hit... one, calmly but seriously, makes very clear that behaviour is not acceptable and it is never to occur again.

 

Border collies are a different kind of dog all right. I've come to believe that they are not for unexperienced dog owners, not so much because they need lots of things to do, but even more because they think and act in a way that's different from what is common in most dogs. They're just... more. Faster (and not just physically), smarter, more curious, more athletic, but most of all, they are more interested in the world (in lack of a better way to describe it). That's what makes them great, but it's also a challenge.

Take this remark with a grain of salt because Tess is my first bc and a sample of one is, uh, small?

 

Anyway, my advice is simply, don't panic. Gracie may be smart, but you're smarter. And she's just a pup. So, whenever she acts in inapropriate ways, instead of panicking, show her in no uncertain terms that she's not allowed to do that (which doesn't involve yelling ot hitting, just being very clear and firm), and devise a plan not to let it happen again. Stop letting her free when you take her to that place. Keep her in a long line so you can control what she's up to. If you want to let her run a bit, leash Bella so you can have her protected by your side. AND don't feel bad about having either dog leashed. It's not forever, and it's part of training, part of life.

 

I had a similar problem with my dog before Tess and another old dog I had at the time. The pup wanted very much to herd the old dog, and she hated it. The pup would bump into her and harrass her. I put a stop to it very fast, by having only one unleashed at a time and correcting the pup for even looking with intent at the old dog. It took a couple of months, but the pup got the idea she was not allowed to bother the old dog in any way. For the pup it was just play, she meant no harm, but it was inapropriate and it was up to me to make that clear.

[LauraV]

I agree to put her on a long lead and stop the problem before it happens. Once again, I believe that this is a dominance issue. I know you think that Gracie was intentionally trying to hurt Bella, but IMO that isn't what's going on. You have a 4 month old border collie puppy. She still has do much to learn and limitations is one of them. To be honest, having such a small dog who sounds submissive with a growing medium size dog who isn't given proper limitations is really hurting the dynamic. Gracie needs to learn how to properly play with Bella. Not all dogs want to play the same games. My bc wants to play chase and my golden wants to play tug. In your case, you have Gracie who wants to romp around and Bella who does not want to play and being so small is getting hurt by it. You need to figure out how you want to fix the problem. I would keep Gracie on a leash for awhile and correct when she is starting to act jumpy towards Bella. You said bella wants nothing to do with Gracie and never has. Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe you should have introduced them before bringing Gracie home. I'm worried for Bella and i hope you can figure something out. Best of luck to you!