medication and other decisions

[rwinner]

Hello everyone. Most of you have read hazels story recently, thank you all for your advice and support. Since that thread was getting long and I have more questions, figured I'd start another.

 

Basically the vet said to take her off of asprin and put her on carprofen, due to risk of ulcers with asprin. However, it seems like there is a large risk of liver problems with the carprofen. Is one really better than the other? Any other experiences with NSAID type drugs?

 

Also, advice on dealing with her behavior. Shes got a lot of behavior problems and I know it isn't from bad training. Either she is nippy/doesn't want to listen/whiny - this is coming from pain. Or she is focused on nothing but finding food/ counter surfing since I started restricting her food. No amount of correction will get this dog to stop looking for food like her life depends on it. She needs to lose about 4 lbs maybe 5 so feeding more isn't an option. I would feed more and exercise more, but that also isn't an option. The main issue seems to be that shes got the energy of your typical 1 year old border collie, with the hips/movement of an arthritic 12 year old so there is just no way I can find to keep her happy. She WANTS to play, so she goes crazy with typical destructive behaviors borders get when they aren't stimulated enough, but I can't find a way to get the energy out because of her hips. Hope I am making sense. She does get exercise every day, but it leaves her walking like a grandma and still with tons of energy...

[simba]

Can you find things that engage her mind more? Trick training, problem solving, puzzles, hiding a toy and getting ehr to go get it? Walks in new places etc?

My arthritic girl has been brought to a lot more new places recently because I have to try and work in the stimulation of an hour long walk while on a half hour amble. Even things like she gets asked to 'stay' in one place (don't get her to sit/down stay any more because of arthritis) and has to have the self-control to wait until she's released.

[rwinner]

I don't know if it's the pain or a weird phase, but she just isn't into training anymore. she has kind of a "why bother" attitude.

[Maralynn]

If she's searching for food, I'd turn that into a brain game. And then maybe on to something like nosework.

 

Re: Meds. I'd try what the vet is suggesting. I'd also ask about adding in something like adequan. There are pros/cons with every med. Doing regular blood work will help you keep track of her liver values.

[gcv-border]

I was thinking exactly the same as Mara.

[GentleLake]

I don't know if it's the pain or a weird phase, but she just isn't into training anymore. she has kind of a "why bother" attitude.

 

That could indeed be from pain, maybe even some depression from constant pain. I'd definitely be talking to the vet about some pain meds. My own experience with NSAIDs is that long term use can lead to kidney failure, so keep that in mind.

 

As for her mood and attitude, trying to play games she likes and can handle may help. As others have said, see if you can turn that focus on food into some fun games, maybe even some food dispensing toys to make her work for her dinner to make it more satisfying.

 

Good luck. It's got to be hard seeing your dog like this.

[Gloria Atwater]

Just a thought, can you add things that add bulk but few calories to her food, such as green beans, carrots or pumpkin? Maybe just feeling more full would help a little? Poor baby, I wish her and you both well.

~ Gloria

[Sue R]

What they said!

[rwinner]

Yeah I was going to ask about carrots - will they give her much added calories? She loves them, and I can freeze them. I will start training through food again, but with any training or play she gives up after a couple minutes. Even with food, it just isn't worth it to her I guess. Its so hard watching her like this. Hopefully the pain relievers will help, part of the reason its so hard right now is there is a 5 day wash out period. Since she was on asprin she has to go 5 days without any pain meds before starting the new stuff. So nothing I can do about her pain until sunday. I feel like she is depressed from constant pain especially hard when not that long ago, she went on a trip to florida with me as my service dog for a wedding and did beautifully and had a great time. Thats how I know this can't be training related, and why I'm easy on her bad behavior - not fair to punish pain. I always felt something was off with her hips, but never thought it would progress this fast or this young.

[Maralynn]

What is the calorie content in your current food? Calorie content varies by about 200 kcal/per cup of kibble depending on variety/brand so perhaps switching to a lower calorie kibble will help keep her full and cut back at the same time.

 

Poor girl. I can imagine how tough it is seeing her like this

[simba]

Apples, frozen carrots, green beans, pumpkin or squash, can all help add bulk. You could also mix them up and put them inside some kind of food dispensing toy- I've seen yoghurt or pumpkin being put into kongs/food dispensing toys and frozen, so the dog has to work to get it out.

 

Walking in deepish water can sometimes be good but watch the surface- my old girl tripped on a rock that I hadn't seen in the water. Edit: the benefit is that if the water is at the right level they can walk slowly along without actually having to support their full body weight.

[Tommy Coyote]

What about sweet potato? They are really high fiber. My dogs love them. I steam them in my rice cooker so they cook pretty fast.

 

I have to really watch Tommy'S weight because of her arthritis. I feed her Fromm weight management food. It is lower calories so she still gets full but there are about 60 less calories per cup.

[GentleLake]

Just had a thought. I've seen some DIY stuff online for how to make your own food dispensing toys, so you could have a couple different things to switch out to keep things interesting and not have to invest much money into it.

[GentleLake]

Adding veggies to add fillers is a great idea, but do a little research to make sure you're not adding a lot of carbs. Keeping hr weight down will be important and things like sweet potatoes are loaded with carbs, and even carrots are fairly high in sugars.

 

Also watch salt in canned foods like green beans. No salt canned are more expensive but safer in the long run.

 

I used have a dog who had a terrible weight and hunger problem. I'd dumptser dive at a local supermarket to get the low carb veggies they were throwing out, thinks like celery, beans, squash, leafy greens, etc. Then I'd puree them and add them to his food to fill his belly up. It really helped. Just start adding veggies slowly because they can cause loose stools in some dogs till they acclimate.

[rwinner]

She's not a big fan of kongs, but she does like the kind of food toys you have to roll around or bat at to get the food out and we have a couple of those. I can try chopped carrots in one and see if that helps, thanks guys. If the carrots are raw will she get much calories out of them still? Aren't they harder to digest that way? If her poop is anything to go by, seems like they just pass right through.

 

Switching to a low calorie food and using food toys with anything but veggies isn't really an option unfortunately. She's on raw since about 6 months old and can't be switched, gets really sick with any kibble we've tried. I have no idea why, but the raw seems to be the only thing she can handle. I might be able to take her boneless meat and freeze it in a kong and just be careful with hygiene.... she usually doesnt do frozen kongs, but her hunger may be enough to motivate her. I can't wait for sunday to come, I feel horrible not being able to give her anything for the pain. And horrible for getting frustrated with her bad behavior when I know its not her personality or training thats the problem, its just pain.

[GentleLake]

I feed raw too and I don't see any reason why you can't still add some pureed veggies to her food. In fact, many approaches to raw-- and many pre-made options -- include vegetables.

 

You could use cut up carrots in food dispensing toys. Will she eat fresh string beans? Even things like turnips, parsnips, rutabagas, winter squash? If so, these could be other options. She won't get many calories from them. Just avoid the really carb laden veggies.

 

How do you feed her meat & bones? I usually feed mine frozen. It takes them longer to chew and consume the food so I believe it gives them more satisfaction than just inhaling thawed meat, which seems to go down in a fraction of a second.

 

If you use ground meat or small chunks, maybe you could mush it up with some pureed veggies and freeze it in a block.

 

Best wishes . . . and hoping Sunday comes really soon for her and you.

[Blackdawgs]

Aspirin has a very short half life in dogs which is one of the reasons why it is not the NASID of choice.

I agree with the Adequan.

 

I recommend finding a rehab vet. Conditioning can go a very long way towards protecting weak structure. And the exercises will tire her both mentally and physically. My pitbull is very dysplastic but was not symptomatic until she was about 8-9 years old because she was very fit and her muscle tone protected her hips.

[rushdoggie]

Mind games, quiet mind games when she has adequate pain control. Scatter her dinner in Kongs/etc around the room to have her search for it. Maybe some recreational chewing of bones? Also maybe swimming? Can you find a canine pool or even an underwater treadmill to allow her some movement with less stress on her joints?

 

If shes disengaged from training, make it simpler and use her diner to get her engaged with the training and maybe it will carry over to non meal times.

 

And FWIW, if my choice was a happy dog with good pain control and a shorter lifespan due to possible liver issues, I think I would choose that over spotty pain control and a longer life.

 

You are in a tough spot, and she is lucky to have a human who is trying so hard for her.

[rwinner]

we may try a rehab vet - we are poor college students so there is only so much we can do for her. But we are moving in two weeks so it seems dumb to start here, I'll wait to look until we move. And I will definitely take pain control with a shorter lifespan. We are both miserable with the way she is now.

 

On the bright side, looks like carrots in a food toy are a hit I will try freezing all of her food, right now its just the organ meat thats frozen for convenience.

[Maralynn]

Your regular vet may be able to consult with a rehab veterinarian to get some ideas if you ask them. I know that the vet I go to has contacts that they're able to call to consult to get a more specialized perspective. I really appreciate this as I'm also on a limited budget.

[Blackdawgs]

Rehab can be very expensive if the vet is married to fancy equipment. Rehab can also be very cheap, many of the exercise can be done in the living room or outdoors using hills, etc.

[urge to herd]

yams/sweet potatoes have about 90 cal/half cup. Gibbs loves them. He also likes just the skins - he gets those for training treats sometimes and gobbles them down.

 

Hope things turn around with the new meds.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[rwinner]

Well we started hazel on the meds today. Fingers crossed they are a cumulative thing, because so far no obvious changes. I remember with asprin, it seemed like the longer I gave it, the better she got, and if I missed a day she went back several steps. Poor girl. Took her to a doggy social class yesterday (our trainer hosts them for free and uses them to help rehab aggressive dogs). She played and ran and enjoyed herself while the adrenaline was kicked in, and then fell down the stairs twice trying to get up to our apartment (lesson learned, I'll be more careful with her and stairs. Luckily theres only five of them and none in our actual apartment.)

[oerash11]

I'm no expert but I am working on an animal science degree...

when we started pharmacology one thing the teacher stressed was not to give a dog over the counter NSAIDs beacuse of all the issues listed here (including the ulcers that your vet mentioned) I would highly recommend at least talking to your vet and see what all the available options are.. that way you can go over the side effect with him and figure out what would work best for you.

 

for exercise i have heard that a low impact option can be swimming, they have centers that are meant to accommodate for older/arthritic dogs.

that could be a good way for her to let out some of her energy in a less painful way and over all help her loose weight as well....