Soft/Fear-Agressive Border Collie

[Avila the BC]

I have a female border collie (there might be a little lab or something mixed in too..) who is extremely soft. We got her as a puppy, (she is 4 now) and she was attacked by a few small dogs when she was a few months old. We think this might be part of her problems? Even doing things like going for a walk is difficult, because when she sees a dog or when a person approaches, she gets so scared she starts barking and growling in self-defense.

 

We talked to a behaviorlist, and know that she's not agressive, just extremely shy and fearful.She is extremely toy motivated, which is why I decided to try agility and the behaviorlist suggested nose work, but she could barely make it through a class...

 

I feel so bad since she's always so scared. The only time she seems really happy or partially distracted is when were playing frisbee. It seems to give her something to focus on so she isn't completely freaking out... I've also tried teaching her tricks, but she always looks at me like I'm gong to hit her.

 

I was wondering if anyne else has had a dog like this? or had any ideas of things that could help?

 

She's a great dog, super athletic, loves agility, and her frisbee, its just so hard to go anywhere with her...

 

Thanks!

[Avila the BC]

oops... Sorry, I accidentally posted twice, and can't figure out how to delete one.

[urge to herd]

In a rush, so here's a brief reply. Scale back what you expect of her. If she does fine in, say, the first 10 minutes of a class and then gets anxious, take her and leave. Gradually, gradually, gradually, increase the time in the class.

 

Get Control Unleashed. It's meant for barky, over-excited dogs or even fear-aggressive dogs, but the same principles apply. Start w/very little exposure to The Awful Scary Thing, then gradually increase as she begins to understand she won't be killed and eaten.

 

I've had 2 timid dogs and one fearful dog. These principles made all the difference for them. Others will chime in and if I get a chance today I'll post again w/greater detail, but these are the bones of it.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth and Gibbs, who used to be much more scared of stuff than he is now

[Avila the BC]

Ok, Thanks! She does seem to do much better off leash than on, so I'll try doing what you said!

[rwinner]

I had a pup like this. All of the advice generally given here works well. Back off of the scary thing and slowly build up to shorter distances/ more scary things. However, be prepared for this dog to never be totally "normal". She may always need some management. With out puppy, he was afraid of strange people, particularly men. He got to the point where you could train him to be okay with a new person by SLOWLY introducing them. But as soon as it was a new person, it was back to square one. He never got the concept of "all new people aren't scary" just "this singular new person isn't scary."

 

That being said, all dogs are different. Good luck, and hope your pup adjusts better than mine did!

[rushdoggie]

Meet Argos. He had some painful stuff happen right after he came to live with me at 5 months, then again as an adolescent (pano then a psoas injury). Added to his naturally soft temperament he became fearful and quick to react to strangers.

 

We struggled. He got worse. He had a lot of triggers and would build up stress so he would panic or snap even after a minor thing.

 

We saw a veterinary behaviorist and got some meds. They did help...not a magic panacea, but they helped him recover faster. We got help with his (now chronic due to misdiagnosis) psoas injury so he had less pain (exercises, stretches, painkillers as needed). We took up tracking, did a lot of stuff outside.

 

We also discovered his was allergic or sensitive to some foods. We eliminated them and he stopped having ear inflammation and soft stools/diarrhea.

 

He matured. We tried stockwork for confidence and enrichment. He didn't suck (me, on the other hand). We did more. It helped him with his confidence.

 

We went back and worked on his issues one at a time (people coming to the door, being restrained at the vet, how to say hi and move away from people before he got nervous). I taught him to stick his nose in and wear a muzzle. I taught him to accept restraint outside of a vet visit.

 

We are VIGILANT about not letting people get in his face. He can now be near people and even walk up and give a little sniff then walk away. We still need to work at visitors who stay for a while. He can do a stay in an open crate even with stuff happening and when he hears the doorbell he runs behind our hallway gate which we shut before we answer the door.

 

We don't have people feed him. We don't want him to push himself past his comfort level by going to someone because he wants a treat or toy. He is allowed to do a sniff then is rewarded for returning to me. We manage his life quite a bit.

 

Its hard, but its gotten easier. We don't have kids or a lot of visitors. I take him on long off leash runs where there's no one around,. He has a very reliable recall. He swims in the river, runs in fields, works sheep.

 

He is the sweetest, most loving boy. He adores me, my husband and the little dogs. He is really special. He is not normal, but thats ok. We made it work.

 

 

[CptJack]

This is also Molly.

Molly is, like Argos, on meds. Meds have given her a longer fuse and allowed her to recover quicker and not 'trigger stack' quite as badly. They've gotten my foot into the door with her, and that's made it possible to train her at all. I doubt she'll ever be normal, she's probably always going to need to be managed, but she can now take a walk through town and not be freaking out/miserable.

 

Mostly, though, she does things out alone or with just our dogs. She hikes, she swims, she plays disc and loves ball. She agility trains (in our back yard). In daily life she's pretty comfortable now and is the sweetest dog in the world. I've seen a lot of progress in the last month. We'll see how far she can go with that progress, but.

She's very, very loved and life HAS gotten easier. This stuff started at 5-ish months old and she's almost 2. It's been a long year and a half, but like I said: It's gotten easier.

[D'Elle]

Rushdoggie, I love your story about Argos, especially that you love him the way he is and have made it work.

One thing I have learned from working with frightened and/or traumatized foster dogs is that it is important not to be ambitious for them and push them ahead, and it is even more important to love them just the way that they are now.

 

Avila-the-BC, if you want you could read the thread (long) that was written about Kelso, the foster dog I had who came to me so scared and traumatized that he was virtually catatonic. Might help you a bit, who knows.

 

Don't rush your scared dog; don't push him to do anything that scares him, Take the tiniest baby steps possible and if your dog shows fear, back up again. Ask for advice here and people will help. Get the book "Control Unleashed" and teach the "Look at that" game. Don't push her. I know I am repeating myself but it bears repeating.

 

Kelso is now a very happy playful dog in his adopted home. He will never be a friendly or outgoing dog with others, and his people are fine with that. But he came light years from where he started.

[CptJack]

I actually wrote up a huge post somewhere else that I'm going to stick here, because you might find it useful.

 

 

So, meds are onboard and I'm overdue for getting down to the nitty gritty of training with her. Well, I have been down to training her, but actually making a post on what I'm doing, what has worked and what hasn't, as well as some other stuff that might help other people.

Okay, first of all:

Gear.

The harness with the patches and the safety strap have been lifesavers. I tried a halti, a no-pull harness, a regular step in harness, and flat collar. None of them worked particular well for her. This get up does. It's a Julius k9 IDC harness, with custom patches that say 'STOP: No touch, no talk, no eyecontact'. Those patches have been lifesavers. They don't stop every idiot in the world, but most people respect them and give us (and her) space. That's really limited her negative experiences, and I cannot over emphasis the benefit of that.

The other thing you can just see is the double ended strap connected from her collar to the end of the leash. That's nothing more than a safety net in case the leash clasp, the harness clasp, or the harness itself fails in some way. It's never happened, but it makes me feel more secure in having her out.

Drive and meds:

- I can't embed, just click the link.

There are people out there who think medication kills drive/energy. That may be true for some dogs, but it has not been the case with Molly. We had a few days/week where she was pretty distracted and sluggish, but otherwise I have noticed only one difference - and that difference is much better focus. There's been no change in her desire to play, how long she can play, or how hard she plays. There's been no falling off in her interest in running, in balls, in discs, or in playing around the house.

Okay, wait, no, she has had slightly less FOOD motivation than she had before, but I suspect her food 'drive' was somewhat related to being a little OCD about seeking it out to start with. She will still take and work for treats, but less eagerly than toys or play.

Actual training:

Foundation skills, man. Basic, foundation, obedience skills - that crap I hate to train.

I suspect that even if Molly hadn't been frantic before we wouldn't have gotten as far as we have today. Her foundation obedience skills weren't where they needed to be, and I needed at least a really, really rock solid leave it, good leash skills, and a stay/recall and wait. Some of it is cyclic - when she was ramped up/scared, she couldn't perform. OTOH, lunging on her leash, not listening, and not having control made everything harder. Also, frankly, I think pressure from pulling on the leash ramped her up more, which fed into her stress.

Today, well, her leash walking looks like this - 98% of the time - and it's sustained for long periods of time.

I can tell her to leave anything, anywhere, and have her do it. That means if a situation is happening - like a kid on a bike or a cat running by, leave it prevents her desire to chase. It also interrupts her desire to stare at things that agitate her. Things like auto-sitting when I stop or cars pass just make walks and being out easier and tells her what TO do instead of her carrying on in her own little world. Wait, in particular, is great because it makes her pause and breathe.

Stay and recall are just - safety issues. I can stop her at a distance and have her do it, I can recall her away from situations. These happen rarely since she's only really off leash in remote areas or controlled ones, but they up my confidence.

EMERGENCY UTURNS. OMG, you guys. This is the best thing ever. It's on cue, I cue it, we RUN the other direction and she's happy to do it. Best 'get out of a situation' thing ever, because she gets out and she does it with glee.

And, the somewhat controversial part of this post.

I dropped food rewards. I'm sure the issue was my mechanic, but they were more distraction than anything. Molly will take food automatically even if she's losing her crap, so they didn't help to gauge that. She doesn't really think about what she eats, she just swallows. My timing wasn't fantastic and she didn't care much. What has worked is TALKING TO THE DOG. That means sincere praise, that means happy chatting, it means babble about the time of day, what's for lunch, how pretty she looks, whatever. Talking to Molly keeps her engaged in a way food does not. So praise when she does well and just talk the rest of the time - in a casual, quiet, way - is working to keep her mentally with me .

Where we are now is... not cured, and not okay, but better. A lot better than we were even a week ago. I have a dog now, that I didn't really have a month ago and even more than last week. She's working with me, she's interested, she's *TRYING* and she's finally starting to understand what I want and what the deal is.

I expect more set-backs, but I am now confident that in another year I'm going to have a dog who, at least to casual observers, ACTS normal in most settings. It's going to be more controlled and managed, and we have a long way to go with 'increasing the difficulty' of this stuff and her world (comfort zone) is still pretty limited but it's expanding steadily. We're getting there. We're really, really getting there.

 

Take what you can use, leave the rest.

[CSW]

Capt Jack,

 

I like that harness and will order one for Star, any problem fitting it? Also, if you don't mind sharing, what meds is she on?

[CptJack]

Capt Jack,

 

I like that harness and will order one for Star, any problem fitting it? Also, if you don't mind sharing, what meds is she on?

 

Nope, no problem fitting it at all. They're pretty adjustable and the recommendations are dead on for her. It's a Julius k9 IDC, and the patches are separate/custom and came from here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/STOP-NO-TOUCH-IGNORE-ME-WORKING-DO-NOT-PET-SERVICE-DOG-PATCH-2X6-Danny-LuAnns-/182093968716?var=&hash=item2a65a5754c:m:mWdGC9f4nigNBApFrzpXDdA The harness has velcro spots but the standard patches are just the harnesses brand name. Peel them off, slap on custom ones.

 

She's on generic prozac. She's been on it about 3 months. It took a good 6 weeks to start seeing MAJOR changes, but it's been a godsend for getting my foot in the door with her.

[Avila the BC]

Thank you guys so much! The u-turn Idea and a couple others struck my mind as something that might work with Coco... I will definitely try them!

[simba]

Ohmigod CaptJack, I am going to go out and begin training that U-turn immediately.

[CptJack]

My trainer told me about it and I swear it is the best thing. Every dog should have that, I think, but particularly fearful/reactive ones. It's just... so, so awesomely useful. Good reward history from training, positive association just because it's fun, and you get *The heck out of dodge*. LOVE IT.

So glad other people think it might be useful!

[GentleLake]

I just got this great article about trigger stacking in my inbox. Hopefully you'll find it helpful as it's a very important concept to understand with fearful dogs. Useful information for anyone, even if a dog's not especially fearful.

 

http://woofliketomeet.com/2016/03/trigger-stacking-how-we-set-our-dogs-up-to-fail/

 

I haven't read the article linked at the end about fearful dogs, but it may also be useful.

[Avila the BC]

Thanks for the article. It did help, and I'll try to catch/prevent myself from trigger stacking with her! It probably expalins why she gets so stressed out after a day of activites rather than just going to the park.

[chrisandgabe]

 

She's on generic prozac. She's been on it about 3 months. It took a good 6 weeks to start seeing MAJOR changes, but it's been a godsend for getting my foot in the door with her.

 

I don't think how I want to ask this is going to come across well via written text, so bear with me.

 

How did you know you wanted to try meds to "get your foot in the door" with her?

 

We had another stressful vet visit yesterday, and our vet sees Gabe as being very fear aggressive, and I agree. He's not an aggressive dog, just has a serious sense of "stranger danger" and goes on the offensive when he's scared. He's also leash reactive, but this has greatly improved in the 10 months we've had him. We can pass many dogs without any reaction, or a wonderful Look At That, and when he does react, he pulls himself together much faster. He does okay, but not great, when people come to our house. It's not something that happens a ton, and we can manage it (we prep people before they come, I treat him for running away from/ ignoring people, instead of having them treat, we encourage him to get a toy, etc, etc). By far the worst scenario for us is the vet's office. Since it's not something we do everyday, I don't think that on its own is reason to try meds, but I always leave wondering why the vet hasn't asked me if it's something I've considered. And questioning that makes me wonder "if I think the vet should be bringing this up, why aren't I bringing it up?"

 

I guess my question is at what point are you micromanaging a dog's life to compensate for their fears so much that it makes sense to look into meds?

[CptJack]

I don't think how I want to ask this is going to come across well via written text, so bear with me.

 

How did you know you wanted to try meds to "get your foot in the door" with her?

 

We had another stressful vet visit yesterday, and our vet sees Gabe as being very fear aggressive, and I agree. He's not an aggressive dog, just has a serious sense of "stranger danger" and goes on the offensive when he's scared. He's also leash reactive, but this has greatly improved in the 10 months we've had him. We can pass many dogs without any reaction, or a wonderful Look At That, and when he does react, he pulls himself together much faster. He does okay, but not great, when people come to our house. It's not something that happens a ton, and we can manage it (we prep people before they come, I treat him for running away from/ ignoring people, instead of having them treat, we encourage him to get a toy, etc, etc). By far the worst scenario for us is the vet's office. Since it's not something we do everyday, I don't think that on its own is reason to try meds, but I always leave wondering why the vet hasn't asked me if it's something I've considered. And questioning that makes me wonder "if I think the vet should be bringing this up, why aren't I bringing it up?"

 

I guess my question is at what point are you micromanaging a dog's life to compensate for their fears so much that it makes sense to look into meds?

 

It's going to be individual, of course, because it's not a decision I think good owners make lightly, but for me:

 

She got worse.

 

Like, reactivity and fear issues are always going to be up and down with progress and setbacks but her trend was downward.

 

She wasn't always reactive, but her fear level never decreased. Which is to say that even if she was changing her behavior for me, or trying, her emotional state didn't. It was just that sometimes, those 'reactions' weren't aggression related or aggressive looking, but more typically fearful - but she was still scared. The other thing, and the biggest, was that the fear SPREAD. Her overall stress level was so high that she'd trigger stack much more easily and things that had not formerly bothered her would. Like... she was SO ON EDGE, that a plastic bag in the street, my husband wearing a new hat, a *freaking lemon poundcake* she hadn't noticed on the counter would send her into barking and growling fits or have her on the ground and petrified.

 

I'm not going to lie - I wish I'd done it a year ago.

 

She started being reactive and fearful around 6 months old. After 6 months of not getting some solid, observable, results and an improvement in her mental/emotional state and quality of life (an actual upward trend, basically), I really should have gone to meds. I didn't because meds have stigma, and because it's a big deal and I was convinced it was my screw-ups as a trainer that were preventing her from improving and I JUST NEEDED TO WORK HARDER - so, basically, ego.

 

Her quality of life was crap. It's better now and I swear to god I will never, ever, for a second regret the meds. I can't. They gave me my dog back and more importantly they gave my dog a LIFE she can live, you know?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CptJack]

Oh, and my vet never mentioned it. A lot of dogs are horrible at the vet. I had to go to him with it on the agenda, and then we talked about it pretty extensively. I'd talked about it with some trainers, but end of day it was down to me to bring it up. I wouldn't worry about that either way, unless you think meds are something that will help.

[CptJack]

Oh, and one other thing I meant to include in my 'what I've been doing that's working'

 

http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/Protocol_for_Relaxation-_Karen_Overall.pdf - This. This has been huge for getting her off the edge she was so used to living on. It's a slow process with her, but that's really just shown me how badly she needed it.

[rushdoggie]

^^^ Dog Days NW on that link, I teach and train there!

 

For me the meds was also the "getting worse" part. I know a lot about training dogs, I have owned several Border Collies and I know about the quirks and the herding dog needs. I knew he had issues, but I was unable to make it better via training, He was simply unable to learn things when he was anxious and he got worse when I tried to work with him.

 

I also sprung for a (very pricey but very useful) veterinary behaviorist vet to help reassure me I was doing things right but it wasn't working. He helped me see things and suggested the meds in addition to the training I was already doing. My regular vet (who is a little old school) was supportive.

 

As an addendum to my earlier post:

 

This weekend, Argos and I went to an event 3 hours away. I was out of town until Thursday, left with him Saturday. This weekend he:

 

1. rode in a strangers car with built in crate with a dog he didn't know well in the adjoining crate

2. went to a site he had never been to before and he worked sheep...not fabulously, but he was engaged and tried hard

3. spent the night in a hotel suite with car mate and yet another dog (we had out own bedroom)

4. went back to site and did a lot better on day 2

 

He was able to become comfortable in the car, happily hopping up and in throughout both days. Once he acclimated to the room he did a few "say hi"s and played a little stuffie fetch. He slept soundly on the way home. The last work session of the second day he relaxed, his body language showed less stress, he took commands appropriately.

 

I had a moment of tears this afternoon, thinking about how far he has come and how proud I am of him working through things. I luff him.