Biting! 10-weeks and unstoppable.

[deadlywarbler]

I doubt this is at all uncommon but I am starting to lose options for my pups biting. Her thing is going after my pant legs. I have heard advice on both ends if the spectrum from harsh correction to lure and reward. I've tried both with limited success mainly because once she gets going she just won't stop. The more I correct or intervene the more escalated she gets. One time she bit my hand fairly hard and I reactively let out a loud "no!" while leaning at her. That got her attention and made her stop, but I don't see yelling as a long term solution.

 

First question is: what methods are getting the most success in training out this behavior? I am not willing to be harsh with the dog but I'm not opposed to being strict. She is great on leash and doing quite well with training.

 

Thanks!!

[GentleLake]

Actually, your yelling "No!" or "Ouch!" is one of the recommended techniques, coupled with a cessation of the play and attention that led to it. This is how puppies learn bit inhibition in their litters. They hurt their playmate, the playmate screams and stops playing. No more fun, so puppy learns not to bite so darn hard.

 

So this is what I do with puppies, coupled with a short time out in the crate when it happens. You want to be dramatic, and also let her know that all fun stops when she does it. If she's in her crate and you ignore her for a couple minutes, she'll learn pretty quickly that that wasn't as much fun as she thought it was.

 

I definitely prefer negative punishment, i.e. removing something desirable -- in this case the play and her freedom -- to positive punishment, i.e. hitting or yelling or other corrections. It's usually just as effective (though it may take a little longer to sink in) but without the negative repercussion of a dog mistrusting you or becoming fearful of you as a result.

[highway61]

I had the same problem when I got my pup at eight weeks and my first and natural reactions were to yell, scream and try to kick him off my legs. I quickly saw all that did was promote his "playfulness" as he just kept coming back for more. So I bought a few compact spray bottles, filled them with water and kept one nearby when in the house. I actually only sprayed him a few times and soon all it took was for me to reach for the bottle to make him release, problem solved.

[G. Festerling]

Why is letting out a loud no so bad! It got her attention. Then give her something else to do. My theory is that if it does not change the behavior obviously it was not effective. But this did. Then move on. Yes, it is not a long term option. Possibly not even one after the first loud "no". But it let her know that no means something. Besides impulse control exercises, you need to let her know that there are certain things that are not ok.

Others will give you more detailed things to do like redirecting and stuff. I just get so frustrated by everyone being so terribly worried about a harsh word! My current girl hates no. I hardly ever use it. She came that way. But by god, when she is acting totally out of line...I will tell her I am displeased. And often that is where it ends. NO play, no making good. For at least a short while. Then all is forgotten and life goes on. She takes it very serious and has held a grudge...as far as a dog can I suppose. But she also has learned that that won't get her anything and to just let it go and go on with life.

 

PS: My girl was horrible. I actually played with her if she did sort of. That allowed me to work on her impulse control, shifting attention as well as it took the anxiety out of it. But there again, I raised her under foot with the willingness and ability to stop anything and address her behaviors. If I could not...she was not underfoot. So I would often come armed with a tug, treat or other toys.

[Oko]

She's probably over tired if she just keeps on escalating, I'd remove her from the situation and give her something else to do. What worked the best with Feist is every time she mouthed me, I stuck a toy in her mouth. Yes, this did mean keeping a toy near me at all times, but she responded very well to it. I will say she was never much one to grab onto pants legs, mostly just hands and ow, faces. Try to stay patient, they really do grow out of this if you guide them in the right direction.

 

ETA I went with the toy approach because yelping sometimes worked, and sometimes...made her excited that she was successfully eating me alive.

[Falon's Mom]

Star was like this when we got her at 11 weeks. I installed the game "red light, green light" because I have two young boys. When ever Star would get into one of her crouch and stare sessions when we walked through the house, I would calmly say "red light" all movement stopped. As soon as she would look towards me I would toss one of her ropebones. As she would go after that I would tell the boys "green light". Playtime would continue and we had happy puppy.

[Camden's Mom]

Great advice here on the "OUCH!" approach. It sounds like you sure got her attention with the "NO!" you used, but I'm guessing there was some anger and frustration (she did bite you, after all) when you said it. I found with my puppy the "ouch" didn't have to be stern so much as startling. In fact, the higher the pitch the more it got his attention. I felt like a fool... I would say "OUCH!" in a very high-pitched voice and then act quite hurt, betrayed and sad. While there were no academy awards coming my way it was all VERY dramatic.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't necessarily have to be confrontational or strict about it, you just need to get the message across: "You are playing too rough and you hurt me. All play stops when you hurt me."

 

I'm also not opposed to giving a puppy or dog a negative verbal correction when it's warranted... but I think the default with puppies is always try to go at it in a non-combative way before moving onto firmer approaches. Just my opinion, but wanted to toss it into the ring.

 

*As a complete aside*

I was at a party recently where someone brought a 10 week old pointer puppy who was running around biting everyone and everything in sight. The attendees of the party all seemed to think this was adorable (ugh) and promoted the behavior by *encouraging* the puppy to pull at their shirt sleeves and latch onto their fingers. The owner seemed unconcerned about the behavior as well. I just kept my mouth shut lest I be outed as the crazy dog lady in the room. Anyways, the puppy came barreling over to me at some point and, when I reached out to engage him, latched onto my hand. I used the high pitched "OUCH!" and the puppy stopped in his tracks. He looked right into my eyes (the only moment of focus I'd seen all night), cocked his head and sat down. After a moment I encouraged him to come back, which he did. This smart little puppy allowed me to play with him without becoming a land shark, nor did he put his mouth on me again that night. Sadly, he did continue his toothy assault on everyone else at the party... wonder how cute they will all think that behavior is when he's 9 months old...

[deadlywarbler]

*As a complete aside*

I was at a party recently where someone brought a 10 week old pointer puppy who was running around biting everyone and everything in sight. The attendees of the party all seemed to think this was adorable (ugh) and promoted the behavior by *encouraging* the puppy to pull at their shirt sleeves and latch onto their fingers. The owner seemed unconcerned about the behavior as well. I just kept my mouth shut lest I be outed as the crazy dog lady in the room. Anyways, the puppy came barreling over to me at some point and, when I reached out to engage him, latched onto my hand. I used the high pitched "OUCH!" and the puppy stopped in his tracks. He looked right into my eyes (the only moment of focus I'd seen all night), cocked his head and sat down. After a moment I encouraged him to come back, which he did. This smart little puppy allowed me to play with him without becoming a land shark, nor did he put his mouth on me again that night. Sadly, he did continue his toothy assault on everyone else at the party... wonder how cute they will all think that behavior is when he's 9 months old...

 

These are the stories that haunt me because the times that I've made a big fuss about her biting me (yes, I felt like submitting to the academy too) she gave me this look like, "ah, you made a noise, great, back to biting you!" The whole "end of play" thing doesn't work at all. I've yelped, thrown up my hands and gotten up while she's still attached to my pant leg. I've said "no!" released her from my pant leg and then walked away and she comes right back at me. I've gotten into "No" matches where i have to say it almost 20 times before she loses interest. Now, if that's what it takes, then I'm fine with that. I am just worried I was doing something wrong.

 

I will definitely watch out that she's isn't too tired, and if I feel like she is I'll put her in the crate, or on a short leash for a time out.

 

What I'm gather, though, is that a stern "no!" is ok to use, and not detrimental to the relationship. Anything else? She is especially persistent and loves to have things escalate. This morning I swept off the porch and found that the broom makes her crazy with a capitol C. I just want to have things be consistent and positive for the pup. Thanks everyone!!

[deadlywarbler]

She's probably over tired if she just keeps on escalating, I'd remove her from the situation and give her something else to do. What worked the best with Feist is every time she mouthed me, I stuck a toy in her mouth. Yes, this did mean keeping a toy near me at all times, but she responded very well to it. I will say she was never much one to grab onto pants legs, mostly just hands and ow, faces. Try to stay patient, they really do grow out of this if you guide them in the right direction.

 

ETA I went with the toy approach because yelping sometimes worked, and sometimes...made her excited that she was successfully eating me alive.

Exactly my situation. I've had the most consistent results with the toy approach. Thanks for the guidance and the reminder to stay patient!!

[GentleLake]

If she doesn't stop biting at you or your pant leg or the broom or whatever, the first time, I'd scoop her up without another word and put her in her crate till she's calmed down.

 

You may have to do this over and over and over again until it sinks in, but it will finally sink in if you're consistent about it.

 

If you're not, then you'll be the only one to blame for allowing her to develop into a full fledged monster.

[Camden's Mom]

These are the stories that haunt me because the times that I've made a big fuss about her biting me (yes, I felt like submitting to the academy too) she gave me this look like, "ah, you made a noise, great, back to biting you!" The whole "end of play" thing doesn't work at all. I've yelped, thrown up my hands and gotten up while she's still attached to my pant leg. I've said "no!" released her from my pant leg and then walked away and she comes right back at me. I've gotten into "No" matches where i have to say it almost 20 times before she loses interest. Now, if that's what it takes, then I'm fine with that. I am just worried I was doing something wrong.

 

I do wonder if it's the movement that's overstimulating her. You walking away (or continue to move at all) might be keeping her in that excited state of mind. Have you tried "freezing" (like the game Falon's Mom suggested) and becoming the most boring thing on the planet when she's trying to go at you? The re-direct with a toy is great too, especially since it seems to be working with her!

 

I gotta' second what GentleLake said... big time. You don't want to be saying "no" (or any command for that matter) over and over again. All this will teach her is that she can decide whether or not to listen to you.

[deadlywarbler]

I do wonder if it's the movement that's overstimulating her. You walking away (or continue to move at all) might be keeping her in that excited state of mind. Have you tried "freezing" (like the game Falon's Mom suggested) and becoming the most boring thing on the planet when she's trying to go at you? The re-direct with a toy is great too, especially since it seems to be working with her!

 

I gotta' second what GentleLake said... big time. You don't want to be saying "no" (or any command for that matter) over and over again. All this will teach her is that she can decide whether or not to listen to you.

This is such a good point, I wasn't even thinking about that... I even read the books which said "don't repeat your commands!" Ok, I'll work on a more hard and fast approach. I was avoiding the crate as a punishment, but then maybe it doesn't have to be a punishment as much as just a time out.

 

So, you say "no!" once and it doesn't work... Is that when you switch your approach?

 

In an effort to not focus on the negative, she did just come walking up where I was watching TV on the floor and curled up right next to me. She's a pretty sweet dog.

[Gideon's girl]

Do you own a crate? If not get one. Put a few toys in it so it isn't bad.

[GentleLake]

In an effort to not focus on the negative, she did just come walking up where I was watching TV on the floor and curled up right next to me.

 

I hope you didn't miss that opportunity to gently stroke her and quietly, calmly tell her what a good, sweet dog she is.

[gcv-border]

Good suggestions from all, but from my perspective, I think it bears repeating that once you say "Ouch" - ALL play stops. And to a puppy, almost everything can be considered as play, even walking away. Become still, stop walking and/or stoop over and pick her up (without emotion) and put her in her crate. (and I agree she may be overtired at times too.

 

Saying NO: I usually save NO for the really big stuff, and I can say it really loud. Puppy biting is not big stuff. (Use "ouch" instead.) It is just teaching manners. To me, NO is for when my dog is going to do something dangerous (run away from me into a situation that may be dangerous - onto the street, chasing a deer, whatever) or if he is repeatedly being a blockhead (doing something repeatedly that he knows he shouldn't and I have already warned him with an Ah-Ah). IMO, don't use NO for the little stuff since your dog can begin to tune you out - particularly if you use it more than once. Once should be enough when used appropriately.

[Kian's Mom]

I have not really had a problem with biting. But mine likes to chase the sweeper. So as others have stated when I get the sweeper out and she comes an wants to bit it I just stop. She may go bite it again but then looks at me an backs off. I just keep repeating the process and it gets longer in between her biting and she will just go lay down. I have also put her on a down stay but she is also 2.

So I agree, you bite all movement stops. It won't take her long to figure it out.

[Gloria Atwater]

What I'm gather, though, is that a stern "no!" is ok to use, and not detrimental to the relationship. Anything else? She is especially persistent and loves to have things escalate. This morning I swept off the porch and found that the broom makes her crazy with a capitol C. I just want to have things be consistent and positive for the pup. Thanks everyone!!

 

 

I'm not aiming this at you, so please don't be upset that I ask this, but ... When on earth did telling a naughty puppy "NO" become a bad thing? This is mainly a rhetorical question because I see this time and again in internet discussions, whether it's regarding puppies or children. Somehow, in today's world it has become a bad thing to say "no."

 

Establishing boundaries is never a bad thing. Dogs and children all need to know that some things are just not permitted. You can't set fire to the curtains, you can't flush dirty socks down the toilet and you can't bite the heck out of Mom.

 

All my puppies over the years have learned about that high, sharp, vehement "OW!" When they get ow, they stop, I stop, everything stops. The fun is over. I don't even walk away, I just look at them reproachfully and if they try again, they get "OW! again. If they're still being little over-stimulated brats, then in the crate they go to chew on a Nylabone or something. They can come out later after they've settled down.

 

Big NO, vehement OW ... these should always be part of a dog's vocabulary. What if one day you see she's about to grab a packet of D-Con that someone left somewhere? A great big NO could save her life. "NO" is not a punishment, it's a tool you use to curb an unwanted or even dangerous behavior, to protect her as much as protect yourself.

 

Just remember, out in the dog world, she'd have to put up with older dogs telling her no in far sharper terms.

"I want to bite your face." *SNAP* No.

"I want to eat your food." *SNAP* No.

"I want to pull your tail and yank your ears." *SNAP* No.

 

"No" is a natural part of the dog's world, taught to them from infancy by their mama and litter mates. It does no harm to institute some of your own "nos" and boundaries now that she's away from the nest.

 

And a crate for time outs is an awesome thing. It teaches her patience and calm.

 

Best of luck!

 

~ Gloria

[bcnewe2]

Thank you Gloria! Or Amen Sista for those with reglion!

I typed a response but deleted it because it wasn't real sweet. It had the word NO in it.

[D'Elle]

Just my 2 cents worth:

Sometimes saying "no" to an over excited puppy can have the same result as yelling "no" to a barking dog. Some will interpret this as a bark from you and it is therefore for some dogs less effective than some other approach might be.

I have worked with a number of biting puppies. The only thing I know for sure is that no one thing works with all of them.

I have had the best success with making the same high-pitched yelping sound that the puppy would make if hurt, and then following that by ceasing all play or interaction, usually also calmly but firmly putting the pup into a crate for 5 minutes.

[Camden's Mom]

I'm not aiming this at you, so please don't be upset that I ask this, but ... When on earth did telling a naughty puppy "NO" become a bad thing? This is mainly a rhetorical question because I see this time and again in internet discussions, whether it's regarding puppies or children. Somehow, in today's world it has become a bad thing to say "no."

 

I don't believe that it's a bad thing to tell a puppy "no" or to establish rules and boundaries. In fact, I think clearly communicating what is expected of the puppy is the key to having a well behaved dog.

 

I don't think anyone who has posted thus far is actually suggesting that you should never give a firm verbal correction to a puppy when it's appropriate. Having said that I do think that if firm verbal corrections, when over used, can become "background noise" to a hardheaded pup or could damage the relationship with a sensitive pup.

 

The problem is that puppies are so often naughty that it's easy to get stuck just correcting them all of the time. I think the posts on this thread are just a reminder that there are two sides to the coin. It's best if you can show the puppy what behavior you do expect of them in a calm and patient manner, but of course they need to understand that purposeful mis-behavior will not be tolerated.

 

P.S. I met someone who was actually kicked out of a hardcore +R training facility for speaking (not yelling) the word "no" to her dog. I think that is madness...

[rushdoggie]

These are the stories that haunt me because the times that I've made a big fuss about her biting me (yes, I felt like submitting to the academy too) she gave me this look like, "ah, you made a noise, great, back to biting you!" The whole "end of play" thing doesn't work at all. I've yelped, thrown up my hands and gotten up while she's still attached to my pant leg. I've said "no!" released her from my pant leg and then walked away and she comes right back at me. I've gotten into "No" matches where i have to say it almost 20 times before she loses interest. Now, if that's what it takes, then I'm fine with that. I am just worried I was doing something wrong.

 

I will definitely watch out that she's isn't too tired, and if I feel like she is I'll put her in the crate, or on a short leash for a time out.

 

What I'm gather, though, is that a stern "no!" is ok to use, and not detrimental to the relationship. Anything else? She is especially persistent and loves to have things escalate. This morning I swept off the porch and found that the broom makes her crazy with a capitol C. I just want to have things be consistent and positive for the pup. Thanks everyone!!

 

 

If I holler, and with draw and she comes back at me, then I assume that means she needs a little break and I will scoop up puppy and deposit puppy in her crate or ex pen for a few minutes. Puppy will scream, I will e deaf. After a minute (usually) puppy either calms down and I let her out (or puppy is sound asleep and was having an out of control moment because she was overtired). If she comes back at me I give her one verbal correction (screech or no) and if she keeps coming at me back she goes. Smart puppies figure this out very quickly. I also spend a LOT of time with bitey puppies playing with toys and it seems to help them when they just HAVE to grab things to have a history of grabbing toys.

[rushdoggie]

 

I'm not aiming this at you, so please don't be upset that I ask this, but ... When on earth did telling a naughty puppy "NO" become a bad thing? This is mainly a rhetorical question because I see this time and again in internet discussions, whether it's regarding puppies or children. Somehow, in today's world it has become a bad thing to say "no."

 

My suspicion is this is an issue with communication.

 

I teach puppy kindergarten and basic dog training classes. On night 1, I meet a lot of frustrated, tired puppy owners who spend the entire hour yelling "no!" "nonono" "stop it!" at their young dogs who are both totally desensitized to the word no, and continue to act rambunctious because a. they have no idea what the human might like them to do instead and b. because they are puppies and being rambunctious is their job.

 

So I try to teach people that constantly yelling "no!" isn't helpful, because a. the dog needs an alternative and b. they no longer care you yell "no!" I stress teaching the puppy something he or she can do easily (sit, hand touch, stuff like that) and that when puppy is overwhelmed in class to get the puppy to focus on easy behaviors for treats (I know, evil treats) and to be engaging and understandable to the puppies. We teach management, self control and basic skills. Suddenly, instead of yelling at the puppy "no!" every 5 seconds for jumping at other people, we can ask the puppy to respond to his name and give us a sit instead.

 

Is this me teaching people saying "no!" is a bad thing or abusive to their dogs?

 

I would say that its not, but has been interpreted by some people as such.

[Gloria Atwater]

I don't think anyone who has posted thus far is actually suggesting that you should never give a firm verbal correction to a puppy when it's appropriate. Having said that I do think that if firm verbal corrections, when over used, can become "background noise" to a hardheaded pup or could damage the relationship with a sensitive pup.

 

The problem is that puppies are so often naughty that it's easy to get stuck just correcting them all of the time. I think the posts on this thread are just a reminder that there are two sides to the coin. It's best if you can show the puppy what behavior you do expect of them in a calm and patient manner, but of course they need to understand that purposeful mis-behavior will not be tolerated.

 

P.S. I met someone who was actually kicked out of a hardcore +R training facility for speaking (not yelling) the word "no" to her dog. I think that is madness...

 

 

We are in complete agreement.

 

And yes, madness indeed~

 

~ Gloria

[geonni banner]

P.S. I met someone who was actually kicked out of a hardcore +R training facility for speaking (not yelling) the word "no" to her dog. I think that is madness...

After spending a good part of today on the "Is training with treats detrimental?" thread I don't find this surprising at all!

[alligande]

I have been pondering the issue of a verbal correction for the last few weeks, I joined a force free / positive training Facebook group and for some on there any correction is wrong, adding any stress to a dog is wrong. I am still trying to figure out if a dog can understand a click or verbal marker why it can not easily understand a no, if it is used clearly as a marker to the wrong behaviour, my dogs and most fosters pick it up very fast, I am sure it's the tone as I am generally soft spoken with the dogs. I am a convert to positive training and using treats for training but NO is staying in my vocabulary for dogs, I also use ahah as a mild correction.

But I do understand why a pet class would try to get people out of the habit of using it, listening to people call their dogs repeatedly or tell them of for some infraction and the dog has no clue what it has done. But to be tossed out, ridiculous.