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"judged Open class counts as a qualifying placing"

 

I have been trialing for a good many years now. Unless the usage of the word "judged" has changed in the last three years, it is never used to refer to time and points trials.

 

Penny

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Penny,

This was the issue I pointed out early in this thread. A typical trial course is a typical trial course regardless of the size of the space in which it's held, but I think it's a huge stretch to say that a trial is judged because someone is standing there counting head through obstacles and keeping time. You could pull any Joe off the street to do the sort of "judging" required at a points and time trial (that is, the person wouldn't necessarily have to understand the work; they would just need to be able to the number of head that went through each obstacle and keep track of the points gained thereby). I've been at points and time cattle trials where the folks keeping track of the points and time were folks who would never be asked to judge a trial (due to their lack of experience with stock, with stockdogs, etc.). The same cannot be said of what most of us would consider a judged trial, where one (or more, at the big trials) person's *judgement* determines where a dog loses points on the course. I have often been told by adovocates of points and time trials that they prefer that venue precisely because it removes the element of judging (and therefore favoritism, intentional or not, or individual quirks--likes and dislikes--of a particular judge, the individualness of it all) from the equation. If you get the job done and get around the course with the best time, you win. There's something to be said for that, but one thing that can't be said is that the trials are truly judged trials.

 

J.

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I don't see anything that clearly excludes arena or point/time trials from being counted as Finals qualifiers. IMO, it is left up to the individual handler to determine if their dog can do the work before taking up the National Finals adventure

I thought the point of earning "qualifying points" was to indicate that a dog/handler team was indeed "qualified" to run in National Finals. There are, sadly, teams that are only "qualified" on paper (whether they got those points in arenas, points/time and not judged, or just in field trials that really provide no indication of qualification to compete on a National levels course), and you can see them running at any National Finals. And maybe taking the place of a more qualified team that just didn't make it to enough trials to earn points. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

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just for the heck of it I pulled up the definition of judge... here is one of the many:

 

5. (verb) judge

a person appointed to decide in a/trial of skill, speed, etc., between two or more parties; an umpire; as, a judge in a horse race

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as far as judging a point/time trial, it can be intense, and the same person(s) pretty much has to watch ever run it's not just calling grips. We have to make sure that the time at each obstacle is called in the same place, we have to make rulings based on what ever standards were set when it comes to daylighting, mixing, retry's, did the handler make an attempt or buzz right on by to try to save time. We've even had shed's in the Open at our p/t trials, I had to make the judgement as to whether or not the dog showed control before calling the shed. Some will call it on the split others I call it when I see control. There are also the out of control thank you's, listening to the handler complain that they were thank you'd when their dog did not grip, but...IMO the only reason it did not grip was that the dog missed, the ewe still crashed the fence, not going to allow it to go on, judges decision is final.

 

Anyway, it's still judged, the standard of judging is just different. Based more on if the work was completed and when based on the standard as oppose to how the work was executed.

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I used to go regularly to an arena trial that was strictly points and time. Since I didn't run a dog, I was the scorekeeper. I kept the clock, kept the points, tallied the scores, and ordered the winners. I was never "the judge".

 

When you are running on points and time, without any form of subjective judging, you are nothing but a scorekeeper no matter what they call you. You are not a teacher just because you sit in front of a class and only hand out or collect papers, or mark answers as right or wrong, but don't teach - you are a teacher if you teach. Same idea, IMO.

 

I believe that to be a judge, one must make decisions, not just tally how many head go through an obstacle and how many minutes or seconds have counted down on the clock. Again, JMO, and obviously, some people's mileage does vary.

 

I'm with Mark, and feel that some clarification is in order, to make intent clear.

 

Edited to point out that Debbie's example of having someone making a decision whether or not a shed is complete is an example of a judgement, and an item in that run that appears to be judged.

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For qualifying for the national finals it really doesn't matter what our interpretation of the rules is as far as what trials count (or should count) towards points. The process, as it is now, counts all HA sanctioned trials; the trial sanctioning form does not distinguish between judged and p/t trials. There is no way for the person posting the trial results to distinguish between judged and p/t trials even if p/t trials were not to be counted towards finals qualification.

 

In terms of being prepared for the finals, IMHO there is no difference in preparation between p/t trials or judged small farm trials on hair sheep. Not prepared is not prepared,

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In terms of being prepared for the finals, IMHO there is no difference between getting qualified with p/t trials or small farm trials on hair sheep. Not prepared is not prepared.

 

 

 

What Mark said.

 

There are no titles in USBCHA dog trialling except National Sheepdog Champion (or reserve Champion - 2nd Place), National Cattledog Champion (or Reserve), or the respective Nursery Champion/ReserveChampion. If you win Meeker, or the Bluegrass, or a couple of other big trials, there's bragging rights there too but, other than Soldier Hollow, there's no pre-qualifying for those.

 

Other than that, no one really cares how you did except your friends and family. So, you can go to the Finals with a dog that qualified on time and points arena trials but if your dog can't do a 400+ yard outrun, drive in a straight line, shed and pen well enough to make the top 17 and win it, no one cares.

 

And, if it can do all those things, and wins the Finals after qualifying through time and points arena trials, no one cares how it qualified. So, it's kind of a moot point in the long run, which is why the USBCHA permits sanctioning of arena trials.

 

On the big field, on the tough sheep, the cream always rises.

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On the big field, on the tough sheep, the cream always rises

 

 

Yes!!!

 

 

I'm going to be heading out...heading to Finals!!! Redding here we come!! If things go well, in 48 hours we should have near 1/2 of the first round of Open complete...

 

 

Wish Wayne luck!

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"The process, as it is now, counts all HA sanctioned trials; the trial sanctioning form does not distinguish between judged and p/t trials. There is no way for the person posting the trial results to distinguish between judged and p/t trials even if p/t trials were not to be counted towards finals qualification."

 

True. It is, nonetheless, untrue that time and points trials are considered to be judged trials under USBCHA rules. Anyone who doubts that we make a distinction using customary language should read the cattle finals rules where the difference is made plain by specifying different scoring systems for outrun and lift from the rest of the course.

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Guest herbertholmes

Time and point trials do not count in nursery qualifying. If they have been counted it was due to them not being reported as such. (we are talking sheep trials only) All types of scoring methods count in the open.

Notice I said nothing about "arena" trials. No weight has ever been given to distances(or lack of) in open or nursery. Herbert

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Time and point trials do not count in nursery qualifying. If they have been counted it was due to them not being reported as such. (we are talking sheep trials only) All types of scoring methods count in the open.

Notice I said nothing about "arena" trials. No weight has ever been given to distances(or lack of) in open or nursery. Herbert

 

Herbert,

 

I think the original question was; you can qualify for Nursery by placing in the top 20% of an Open trial, and an Open trial can be time and points, therefore if you finish in the top 20% of a USBCHA sanctioned Open trial that is a time and points trial, doesn't that count for Nursery qualifying?

 

There appear to be two rules that say contradictory things (Nursery trials must be judged on the one hand. Open trials don't have to be judged AND you can qualify for Nursery by placing in an Open trial).

 

Pearse

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