Jump to content
BC Boards

Gunnar won't eat. So long, but really need help...


Recommended Posts

Hi everyone...wow it's been a very long time since I've posted on here. After the pups developed epilepsy I sort of clung onto the epilepsy group and stopped posting here all together. However this problem requires a keen understand of the Border Collie mind and I know there's nowhere else I can go. Ok, maybe I could go to a behaviorist but before that, I'll try here.

 

Little back ground since I'm probably new to most of you these days. Gunnar is our male Border Collie (we have 2 females as well) and is just over 9 years old. For nearly 8.5 years he's eaten like a champ. When they were younger, they used to free feed and as they were older he would inhale his food and do a "victory lap" around the kitchen after he finished (well before the girls). For the last 2-3 years we've been on the same food (Taste of the Wild) and same flavor. Mostly because we found a food they liked that didn't spike seizures (they're crazy sensitive). His eager eating started to taper off and he'd eat slower and slower and then in December of last year he got a strange urinary infection and started having accidents in the house. We disciplined him and in hindsight, we should not have. I personally believe that we hurt his ego and shortly thereafter, he started turning his nose up at his food.

 

At first we blamed it on boredom and tried other flavors of Taste of the Wild (because he'd eagerly take his treat of a carrot before we left for work so he was still hungry). That was hit or miss and we eventually ended back on "old trusty" the flavor we'd been buying for the last few years.

 

Everything seemed to be on the mend. His infection subsided and he was eating more normally but still not eagerly like before. I don't think his ego ever rebounded though actually that is a much bigger issue. Let me elaborate on that.

 

Gunnar Mr. Scaredy Pants: I'm not sure when it began but Gunnar went from being a confident stud to being nervous in our house. My husband and I can't even talk to each other (in joyful tones even) without him cowering and going to hide. I swear to everything that's good and holy, we haven't beaten the living daylights out of him. They rarely get smacked at all anymore (only when they do something REALLY wrong which again, is super rare these days). We even try to avoid telling him no or things of that nature lately. When he used to lay down near us when we're on the couch, now he hides/lays under the desk behind us, in the corner of the kitchen table in the other room or in the "nook" that the back door makes with the back stair case. We've tried to increase our amount of trick training to boost his ego. But that doesn't seem to help. He's not being bullied by the girls or the cat. When it comes to other dogs, he's still confident. Any ideas on how I can help boost his ego because I think this has a lot to do with him not eating.

 

Ok back to the topic of him not eating. So I think part of it is that he hates taking his seizure drugs. He takes them relatively well but doesn't like it either way. Also, this is nothing new since he's been taking drugs since he was 3 (epilepsy sucks).

 

So like I said, he was on the mend. Then the bladder thing returned (he's back on drugs and may need an ultrasound :-( ). Back to peeing excessively (there's no negative reinforcement this time we learned our lesson). And back to turning his nose up at his food. He's got a couple pounds of padding to lose if we wait him out but he's a slender boy and I don't want to push him too much.

 

Let me cover the frequently asked questions concerned food refusal:

-He's not ill. He hasn't thrown up at all

-He's pooing normally

-His teeth are fine, he still chews on bones and sticks

-He's still hungry as he greedily accepts carrots and apples if offered

-We've tried washing his bowl (it doesn't make a difference).

 

I know this is a book...I hope some of you made it through and have some advice to share. Thanks for your help and here's a few pictures of Gunnar for "advice tax".

 

IMG_7273.jpg

 

IMG_1790.jpg

 

And the three

 

Shining%2520Rock%252020145.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You say that he is not ill and you also say that he has a bladder infection, is "peeing excessively", is "on drugs", and "may need an ultrasound".

 

Has the dog had blood work recently (chem and CBC) and has a vet checked his mouth carefully?

 

If the answers to the above are "no", I'd start with the vet.

 

The drugs and/or UTI (or whatever else is going on) can definately affect his appetite and perhaps cause other behavioral changes (because he feels unwell despite not vomiting)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry about the epilepsy, as my toy poodle whom my grandma kept when I moved out was diagnosed with that about 2 years ago and it is hard.

 

On that note I would like to add that after a breakthrough seizure even if it is super small the toy poodle won't eat her food for about 24 hours, but will accept delicious treats. I'm sure you already know this, but be sure he isn't having irregular seizures like the poodle which just freezes and stares at one place like a statue rather than a traditional seizure.

 

If that is not the case have you tried mixing carrots or apples into the kibble? My dogs will eat their kibble faster if I mix in a treat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Other than a full vet workup (as pothers have suggested there could be something going on that you're not aware of), I'm sorry I don't have much advice to offer.

 

But do want to extend my sympathy for what you're going through. This has got to be very frustrating for you all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You say that he is not ill and you also say that he has a bladder infection, is "peeing excessively", is "on drugs", and "may need an ultrasound".

 

Has the dog had blood work recently (chem and CBC) and has a vet checked his mouth carefully?

 

If the answers to the above are "no", I'd start with the vet.

 

The drugs and/or UTI (or whatever else is going on) can definately affect his appetite and perhaps cause other behavioral changes (because he feels unwell despite not vomiting)

 

Hey when I said "ill" I meant vomiting. I tried to make that clear, sorry for the confusion. Yes he has some sort of urinary tract infection and yes he's gone to the vet and gotten checked over. Thus the drugs.

 

I think his last blood work was at the end of last year to check all his levels (seizure medication protocol and what not). Also, the first time this happened he got the full typical work up for anything urinary related. Everything came back negative. This time his urine sample had a few crystals in it. So if the antibiotics don't clear it up we'll be going in for an ultrasound. Really hoping the antibiotics help.

 

 

I'd want a complete blood panel. And I'd ask about checking for thyroid issues. Arthritis is something else to consider. If he's in pain then that might explain his behavior.

 

The first time he had the issue I believe we had his thyroid levels checked. He is on thyroid medication as part of his seizure control regiment and that was my first thought too. I'm pretty sure I remember his thyroid levels being normal.

 

Other than a full vet workup (as pothers have suggested there could be something going on that you're not aware of), I'm sorry I don't have much advice to offer.

 

But do want to extend my sympathy for what you're going through. This has got to be very frustrating for you all.

 

Thanks for your sympathy. It certainly is a pain in the rump. We absolutely took him to the vet as soon as his symptoms returned to get checked out.

 

 

I'm sorry about the epilepsy, as my toy poodle whom my grandma kept when I moved out was diagnosed with that about 2 years ago and it is hard.

 

On that note I would like to add that after a breakthrough seizure even if it is super small the toy poodle won't eat her food for about 24 hours, but will accept delicious treats. I'm sure you already know this, but be sure he isn't having irregular seizures like the poodle which just freezes and stares at one place like a statue rather than a traditional seizure.

 

If that is not the case have you tried mixing carrots or apples into the kibble? My dogs will eat their kibble faster if I mix in a treat.

 

Yeah epilepsy is a demon. Luckily (knock on wood) he hasn't had a seizure recently (yay!). He's never had problems eating post seizure though... He's a happy go lucky chap once he comes out of it. We haven't tried mixing in treats yet...and I'm reluctant to because I don't want him getting used to that and I think he'd just pick out the carrots...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would repeat the blood work and ask the vet to check his mouth again. At 9 years of age, things can change quickly.

 

If it comes down to it we will. We're kind of going along with the advice of our vet at this point. We'll do the blood panel if she asks for it. What kind of things should I look for in his mouth? We brush their teeth fairly often (just did so on Sunday actually) and can check ourselves.

 

 

Have you tried adding a bit of canned food to his dry to entice him to eat? Maybe water it down a little to make a gravy?

 

My old dog (now ~17 1/2) has gotten picky about her food. I know how frustrating it can be.

 

If it persists this may end up being what we do.... I'd like to avoid it as much as possible but as they get older I imagine it will become necessary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It could be that he just feels crappy because of whatever if going on with this bladder issue. I know that I can be ill in other ways (headache, cold, etc) and still be fine, take some medicine and go on, but if I get a stomach ache for any reason it is just awful. I just don't want to function at all until it's over.

 

So he may be off his food and acting strange just because he feels bad. Also the med he is on for it may be making him nauseous. For now I would try to add in wet food or something else that he likes and then once the bladder issue is cleared up go back to the regular food.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would second the idea of trying adding something to his food to see if that gets him eating again. I know with Aed it can be as simple as a bit of vegetable oil, milk or egg mixed in to get him eating vigorously. And he still eats just fine when there isn't anything on the food.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not saying it is, but recurring UTI's and lack of appetite were the symptoms of my dog that was eventually diagnosed as bladder cancer. She was a little older though. (13)

 

This is honestly my greatest fear. I'm waiting for one of the epileptics to come down with cancer because that would just be our luck. I think the first time she checked his white blood cell count and it was outside of the range they look for for cancer but I may ask again.

 

I'm thought of the egg mixture thing actually. It's a good option if he persists in not eating.

 

Anybody ever have a dog stop eating because of nerves?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're concerned about his eating and doing what's necessary with the vet, then I think I would add stuff to his food to encourage him to eat. My old dog (will be 15 next month) recently went through a period when she didn't want to eat. At her age, I simply wanted her to eat, so I browned some ground beef and that finally got her jump started again. I gave her a few meals of plain beef, then added kibble back in with the beef, and finally went back to our normal routine (which does include canned food as a topper/mix-in). I also changed the kibble. Even though she was on a premium kibble, it was clear she didn't like it, even though she had been eating well before.

 

I had read some time ago that epileptic dogs do better if their blood sugar fluctuates less, so even though I am generally a once-a-day feeder, my epi dog and the very old/very young get fed more than once a day. As someone else noted, anorexia can be self reinforcing: they don't eat, they feel bad because they didn't eat, and then they don't want to eat because they feel bad (nausea). That's why with my old dogs, especially, I don't let them go with not eating. I get them eating again FIRST (or simultaneously with diagnostics at the vet) and then worry about getting them back to their regular diet.

 

It's also possible that whatever meds you are using to control the seizures are affecting his appetite (either by upsetting his stomach, making the food taste funny, whatever).

 

I would go ahead and suffer the inconvenience of adding goodies to his food or perhaps switching to something else entirely (that is, non-TOTW) to see if you can get him eating again.

 

That said, when I am dealing with this sort of thing, it's usually with dogs who are 14+. But if Gunnar hasn't been a picky eater all his life, then something has changed for him and you'll need to adjust at least somewhat to accommodate his needs.

 

As for anxiety, I have had dogs who won't eat when we travel, I assume from the stress of travel. My old girl is generally anxious when crated now, but her anxiety is expressed through barking, panting, and evacuating in her crate and then circling in the mess to make an even greater mess. I wouldn't rule out anxiety entirely and of course border collies are famous for making connections between totally unconnected things, and in that regard, if there's been some sort of disruption/trouble/whatever associated with meal time, then he may well have a generalized anxiety about eating now.

 

I'm not sure I really buy into the ego concept because I don't think "ego" would affect a dog's eating habits in the way you describe. I'd be more inclined to believe that the behavior issues you describe are somehow related to whatever electrical misfirings occur in the brain that end up being expressed as seizures. Before I got Phoebe controlled with medication she had noticeable behavior changes before and after a seizure, so I also wouldn't rule out all or part of this being related to some sort of seizure activity.

 

ETA: You might also try generic pepcid or similar a little while before a meal. I had another oldster who had to be given pepcid at night or she wouldn't eat the next morning. So I would also explore adding in something that would soothe the GI system, just in case there is a nausea/upset stomach component to the anorexia.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know with Aed it can be as simple as a bit of vegetable oil, milk or egg mixed in to get him eating vigorously.

 

Raw eggs and milk, sometimes even too much added oil, can cause digestive distress. So unless you're willing to risk adding another issue, I'd be pretty careful with any of these things. Scrambled eggs would probably be OK though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I think his last blood work was at the end of last year to check all his levels (seizure medication protocol and what not). Also, the first time this happened he got the full typical work up for anything urinary related. Everything came back negative. This time his urine sample had a few crystals in it. So if the antibiotics don't clear it up we'll be going in for an ultrasound. Really hoping the antibiotics help."

 

Did the "full work-up for anything urinary related" include a bladder tap - to get a sterile urine sample? Followed by a culture of the urine sample? I have had a dog with a UTI that did not respond to the antibiotic of first choice used by vets for UTIs. It was only after the vet obtained a sterile urine sample and then sent it out for culture to identify the specific infectious agent, was she put on a different antibiotic because the first antibiotic was not appropriate.

 

Regarding the possibility of nausea: Since Gunnar is only 9, this may not be applicable but --- when my old girl (18+ years) didn't want to eat despite every trick and tasty food/treat in the book (and her blood chemistries were 'normal'), the vet put her on mirtazapine. Used as an anti-nausea drug for dogs. Did the trick for my old girl.

 

Good Luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Valid point. Perhaps I shouldn't wait him out and see if he eats regularly again. He is pretty fond of yogurt and that doesn't seem to upset his stomach, I could add that to his kibble.

 

No, she didn't do a sterile urine tap. She suggested an ultrasound...should I bring this up? Our old trick of adding olive oil didn't work either. That's kind of why I was thinking it had something more to do with being nervous and having a negative reaction to feeding time.

 

Maybe he just really hates Taste of the Wild...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not really sure why you are attributing this to "nerves", "ego", hating his food, and what not.

The dog has recurrent UTIs, epilepsy, and is on a bunch of drugs. A UTI , itself, can cause significant abdominal discomfort and make dogs and humans feel generally crappy. Ditto for the antibiotics that he is probably taking

Rule out medical problems (and this dog HAS known medical problems) before you attribute this to behavior.

And in the meantime, get this dog to eat. Lean, cooked meat (not the salted garbage that you buy in the deli), rice, noodles, cooked eggs, and low sodium broth are good choices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not really sure why you are attributing this to "nerves", "ego", hating his food, and what not.

The dog has recurrent UTIs, epilepsy, and is on a bunch of drugs. A UTI , itself, can cause significant abdominal discomfort and make dogs and humans feel generally crappy. Ditto for the antibiotics that he is probably taking

Rule out medical problems (and this dog HAS known medical problems) before you attribute this to behavior.

And in the meantime, get this dog to eat. Lean, cooked meat (not the salted garbage that you buy in the deli), rice, noodles, cooked eggs, and low sodium broth are good choices.

 

Best reason I can give you to why I have this idea is because I know my dog. I know his behavior, I know his looks. I'm not ignoring that the medication can have an effect on his appetite, I imagine it does. However, I'm also considering years and years of past experience with this pup on medication. Also, if it was just him feeling like trash he wouldn't want his treats as eagerly as he does. If I were to put a small pile of his kibble in front of him and a carrot as well he would eat the carrot and leave the kibble to the kitty (who is amazingly not picky).

 

Oh I wanted to point out that the last thing he had was not a UTI the vet was sure of that. He tested negative for all those symptoms. She had a theory that he had an infection in his urethra which can be caused from excess...uh..cleaning...which this boy can be bad about. With some antibiotics it cleared up. This time he had crystals in his urine. Poor pup...

 

Thanks for all your input everyone!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best reason I can give you to why I have this idea is because I know my dog. I know his behavior, I know his looks. I'm not ignoring that the medication can have an effect on his appetite, I imagine it does. However, I'm also considering years and years of past experience with this pup on medication. Also, if it was just him feeling like trash he wouldn't want his treats as eagerly as he does. If I were to put a small pile of his kibble in front of him and a carrot as well he would eat the carrot and leave the kibble to the kitty (who is amazingly not picky).

Really? You wrote above: "His eager eating started to taper off and he'd eat slower and slower and then in December of last year he got a strange urinary infection and started having accidents in the house. We disciplined him and in hindsight, we should not have. I personally believe that we hurt his ego and shortly thereafter, he started turning his nose up at his food."

 

You wrongly attributed a physical problem to a behavoral problem once before. Isn't it possible that it is happening again?

 

And how does a dog connect being discliplined for peeing in the house to food anyway?

 

Sarcasm aside, based on what you wrote, the inappetence started a short time before the "strange urinary infection".

 

Yes, a bladder full of rocks or tumors or inflammation can make a dog feel pretty shitty and make it lose its appetite. And the same dog may still continue to take high value treats from the hand or bowl.

 

If it were me, I would forget about the ego and rule out physical causes before going the behavioral route.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really? You wrote above: "His eager eating started to taper off and he'd eat slower and slower and then in December of last year he got a strange urinary infection and started having accidents in the house. We disciplined him and in hindsight, we should not have. I personally believe that we hurt his ego and shortly thereafter, he started turning his nose up at his food."

 

You wrongly attributed a physical problem to a behavoral problem once before. Isn't it possible that it is happening again?

 

And how does a dog connect being discliplined for peeing in the house to food anyway?

 

Sarcasm aside, based on what you wrote, the inappetence started a short time before the "strange urinary infection".

 

Yes, a bladder full of rocks or tumors or inflammation can make a dog feel pretty shitty and make it lose its appetite. And the same dog may still continue to take high value treats from the hand or bowl.

 

If it were me, I would forget about the ego and rule out physical causes before going the behavioral route.

 

You misunderstand me. I'm not assuming that this has nothing to do with physical causes. I'm just asking for advice on behavioral ones.

 

That being said. I really don't need sarcasm right now. I'm dealing with enough between Gunnar's issues and Rhea's to top it off. Thanks for your advice I do appreciate it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You've gotten good advice from others.

But I will second (or third or fourth!) the suggestion to get his mouth checked. If you can find one, a vet who does solely dental work, or primarily, would be best. I have no experience with epilepsy (thank doG), so can't help there.

 

My experience: My older spayed female dog had had off and on UTIs for a number of years. Antibiotics would clear it up, and she'd be fine for quite awhile. At age 8, I had her teeth cleaned and checked by a vet dentist (that's all he does). He found one badly abscessed tooth (that he said had obviously - to him - been 'bad' for awhile), and another that needed serious work and a couple of incisors that ended up being pulled. She showed NO symptoms of having tooth problems! She tugged and retrieved and ate heartily. I also brushed, and never noticed any problems.

 

Call it coincidence if you wish, but after this dental work, her UTIs *completely* disappeared. She lived another 8 years with not a single one. Dental issues can cause all sorts of problems - I'm convinced she had low-grade infection in her system for years, but because she was basically healthy, it went unnoticed and untreated.

 

I hope you find the source of Gunnar's problems.

diane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...