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Maja

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Cause you can work harder and make sure they understand it...with out the "distraction" of moving stock. The dog should be smart enough to put those two things together. Which of course most are...no matter how they are trained :rolleyes: Then on the other hand, once the dog knows all this, and then I put him/her on stock, then i "help" them understand how to use what he/she already knows on the stock.

 

I don't consider stock a distraction when you're trying to teach a dog to work stock. To me this above sounds like nothing more than obedience on stock rather than a dog being taught how to work stock. It's not a matter of how "smart" they are or how much of a team player they are to be able to transfer a sterile command to stock. It's a matter of associating a new command with an interaction with another live animal. Why not take the most direct path?

 

How many dogs would you say you've trained to an advanced level? I'll be very interested to see your videos.

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with my "training stick" I do make it "come alive" I move the piece of rubber as if it "was alive" which i think makes it a little better than just something standing there like a ball not moving really.

The issue I have with this is that the training stick/piece of rubber, etc. does NOT have its own agenda the way livestock do. The livestock and the dog are constantly reading each others' energy; that's how the dog knows how big the "bubble" is, and that's how the stock know how much "presence" the dog has. They are each giving off "pressure," if you will, to each other. The dog's pressure on the stock should meet and be just slightly more than that of the stock--that's how this whole thing works--and the dog gets the stock to move in the desired direction.

 

Now, certainly, you can train a dog the proper "moves"--I can train a dog so that I can place it where *I* think it needs to be in relation to the stock, i.e., which flank to take, and how wide or close *I* think it should be, etc. And I read stock pretty well, but it seems to me that the dog has a better shot at reading the stock "properly," since, 1) the dog is generally much closer to the stock than I am, and 2) reading other animals' energy is the way the dog communicates; it is not the primary mode of communication with humans. There are many of us who much prefer a dog who can think on its own, read the stock, and adjust its distance to the stock (and thus the pressure it puts on the stock) accordingly. If/when you are dry training a dog to work stock, you are completely eliminating the most fundamental aspect of dog/stock work (that which the whole enterprise is built upon)--the relationship between the dog and the stock. So, once the dog learns the "moves," then it has to try to apply that to dealing with the stock and their energy. But by then you already have what many of us wold call a "mechanical dog." Why not just let the dog learn both together, hence Denise's "direct path"?

A

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Doesn't sound like you've done much trialing at advanced levels. I don't want to assume anything about the types of trials you've competed in, but dry-training techniques may only be suited to working with very dog-broke sheep on very small courses.

 

Laurae - Hey, Nothing big...just local runs that farmers put together...and Think I went to one in dequeen, been to one in Heber Springs too I think.
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I know that I, personally, am careful not to even use the same commands off stock that I use on stock because if I say, "away to me" ... I want my dog to know there are sheep out there that I want brought back and for the dog to not stop looking until they find it -- whether or not they can see it.

 

I totally agree with that Jodi. I once sent Mick on a comeby but was trying to flank him around the chickens, we had just started "working" chickens here and to Mick, chickens have always been invisible. So he goes off on his comby and I lose him. I looked for a while cause I wasn't really thinking anything but put the darn chickens up.

I found him down at the sheep pen waiting at the gate to complete his flank. So I agree it is a direction we do related to sheep. Not a direction relating to anything else (besides other livestock...even chickens much to Micks dismay). I can say any sheep work related command, both Dew and Mick will look for sheep to complete the command.

Mick will now flank around chickens but before he takes off I always see him glance off towards the sheep area.

 

we were at a freind's farm, she sent her dog off on a blind outrun to gather sheep out of their own field, the sheep weren't anywhere near where friend was sending her dog. Dog finally showed back up mcuh later and looked very miffed at being "tricked" when there was no sheep to be found.

Same with me, I sent Mick blindly where I was told sheep were to be found. I watched Mick take the command then head for a gate that he could skrit under because he thought i must have meant farther out cause the sheep weren't where I told him they were. I called him in and found other sheep to make it up but he wasn't happy either. It's like a trust issue has been shaken.

 

Dry training sounds like the ultimate in mechanical work.

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I agree with those that advocate not using "on stock" commands when off stock (other than, of course, lie down and recall).

 

Sometimes I send Celt to check and see if there are any cattle in a part of the pasture that I can't see without a hike - for that, to avoid saying "look" when there might not be stock, I say "find". He knows what that means. If he spots the stock and is still in sight of me, he will lie down facing the stock (I didn't teach this, it's something he's offered). If he goes and does not find stock, he comes back to me. If he goes and finds stock out of my sight, he'll come back with them, or will run back to where he can see me and I know he's spotted them and I can send him.

 

Before Megan lost her hearing, she was my #1 dog for finding new, hidden calves in long grass or brushy spots. I'd tell her to "find" and she'd go searching. When she found a calf, rather like a bird dog, she would "point" to it with her nose. At that point, if I felt the calf was in a safe place, I'd call her off with a "good girl". If I wanted her to rouse the calf and move it my way (back into the pasture, as they would often be off in a neighboring field), I'd have her get it up and let her fetch it (as well as a new calf can be fetched - they are pretty clueless).

 

I find our "find" command to be very useful but definitely different from "look" or "look back" which means I know there are stock out there, for sure.

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Great comments Denise, Anna, and Sue. I can't really add anything to what they've said, but I put myself squarely in the camp of those who want a dog to learn to read stock and react appropriately from the start. I don't even put flank commands on for some time after I start a dog because I don't want to distract from the dog learning the effect it has on stock by its own actions. In other words, I'm out there to help the dog get it right, but I do this by letting the dog feel the stock's reaction to the dog and then allow the dog to figure out how to adjust *itself* appropriately to best control the stock. Only when I think a pup has a good foundation in feeling the stock (controlling the energy) do I put myself further into the picture by adding commands. I personally believe--as I stated earlier in this thread--that my approach creates a thinking dog--a dog that can work out of sight from me and be trusted to do the right thing, a dog I can send for the stock, seen or unseen, and then turn my back on, knowing it will get the job done efficiently and with the least amount of stress to the stock. And a dog that will save my butt at home and at trials because it can read and react to stock faster than I can....

 

J.

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I don't consider stock a distraction when you're trying to teach a dog to work stock. To me this above sounds like nothing more than obedience on stock rather than a dog being taught how to work stock. It's not a matter of how "smart" they are or how much of a team player they are to be able to transfer a sterile command to stock. It's a matter of associating a new command with an interaction with another live animal. Why not take the most direct path?

 

How many dogs would you say you've trained to an advanced level? I'll be very interested to see your videos. If you are interested in mine, here they are, mistakes and all:

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=24963

 

 

Neither do I, which is why I put the quotations around it...cause not really the word i was looking for...Like I just want the full attention of the dog before we go to working stock...While I work with what i am going to be saying to the dog. Like a person probally wouldnt train a dog on anything, any breed, with a bunch of kids running around the dog touching it talking to it while you are trying to teach it something, and I AM NOT SAYING that sheep do that :D just an example. Just how I feel. I understand how the magority trains....insted of teaching off, you teach with the commands as the dog moves freely as it works. I have trained a few like this. Older dogs for people that had no interrest in training off sheep. Which can happen,(mostly in older dogs, which is why i train young) which in that case I take them in my small round pen and I do the same thing you all do.

 

Very Nice take a hold there too :D But like you said nice and clean, which is one problem I sometimes still have with Scott. He will latch on to turn something and not let go...but now that he is ,goodness, 5 I think or 6, He doesnt do it anymore, unless he gets really pissed off which in working 1000 lb cattle you sometimes have to be a little rouch to get what you want. :D When he was a pup though it was our biggest issue.

 

What a beautiful outrun she has also!! I agree that the most experience a dog will get is in every day working life, learning the situations and predicting the next three steps.

 

 

Oh goodness...I have trained...well I havent had any to train in the last probally 3 yrs to 4yrs rather than my own. and my parents(which as well be mine) I have trained 7 of my own.....and I would train two a summer, and been doing that up to the point when I backed off, about 8yrs of public work. Now by advanced. Not sure but the dogs when they left my farm..I could have one dog bring a herd of cattle from the far pasture all the way to the coral for me and doing with it style and know how, and I could have her/him take them whereever I wanted....then I would bring the owner to me and have them work the dog, So they could see before they left that the dog was working. Cause I am firm believer of you have to put a little training in the handler/owner as well. I have never done anything but border collies though. So like I said I never really got into the big trialing...didnt find it ness really. Didnt have the time either.. :D

 

Watched your videos, Very good job!! May is very nice dog with natural talent. Got to hate those cross overs, When I was watching it before it got to the point where you put a stay on her and met half way, I was saying that to myself...I bet she does this and sure enough... :D Maybe this will help make it little more understanding...I understand that most do not want to put alot of pressure on a younge dog. I agree, dont want to discourage them when they are young cause then i might turn off, So you dont put anything on them, well thats kinda where I use the dry training, it is putting commands on the dog without the dog not even realising that it is "working" Although it is, Everything BCs do is working. So then when they first go on sheep, we have something to just kinda help them realise what i want them to do, and what they need to do. Without really having to get on to them hard and risk disscouraging them.

 

Doesn't sound like you've done much trialing at advanced levels. I don't want to assume anything about the types of trials you've competed in, but dry-training techniques may only be suited to working with very dog-broke sheep on very small courses.

 

 

My dogs and most of the dogs that I have trained for other people have gone to work cattle that have never seen a dog in its life. and did very well and helped their owners so much. Which is a joy to me. All my trained dogs right now I can send them and never look back and I know they will have the stock right there and be right where they need to be. It just comes with experience of working, not because I made them familar with something they are going to need to know later on. Like I said though I havent competed in anything high advanced, although I have no dought that my dogs could do it :D

 

Also, A lot of the words that I am reading, makes it sound like I am not working the dog on stock at all, and I am completely working the dog myself and not letting it move...That is incorrect. I am just letting the dog get a feeling for what is going to be hearing the same thing you all do when you get a dog ready for commands. I let the dog move on its own. but there are cases where you have to tell that dog what you want...Now i am giving these experiences as a farmer, and Lord knows we can get ourselves into some problems where if we did not have that dog lisening to us then we would be in big trouble :rolleyes: you all act like you dont use any commands or that you do not need them...then why do trialers have whistels and people give commands while they work...They want the dog to do it on their own yes i agree 100% and predict what the stock is going to do thats why they are #1 herding partners cause they can do that....but at the same time they lisen to where they have to put the stock..and by that the dog puts it all together. A can run after a cow..and the cow is not going to respect me like it does the dog, trust me i have tryed it :D

 

Anyways, I think my fingers are going to fall off now, :D

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Very interesting discussion.

 

In the meantime we went to herd again. Had a long and I think a successful session. I tried the recall, first just by walking over to her and petting her, then recall towards the sheep and then away from the sheep but I was fairly close to Bonnie. I also put the leash on and off without doing anything. I also took a long leash with me and called her off giving her a choice to come on her own but not giving her the choice to dash off to the sheep.

 

During herding I worked based on the assumption that she wants to please me, co I corrected her but praised her at every opportunity tried not to put pressure from me on her too much (that is I used the stick and voice, but kept the voice somewhat down, tried not to be too aggressive with my body but have better timing and block her mostly with the stick). To get her to balance I used a technique my teacher taught me of going with the sheep along the fence, which limits the necessity of controlling the wearing to only one side. Then we turn and do the same thing the other way.

 

The movie is cut pretty much only to take out the bits when I walk off the screen. Please if you watch it, watch past the middle because there is, in my opinion, an important change that take place in the middle of that session.

 

 

maja

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Concerning the discussion. Of course my experience is very limited, but my preferred way is on stock as much as possible (I had even planned to do lie down on sheep like Derek Scrimgeour does, but decided I don’t have enough experience) since my dogs seem to forget what they learned off stock anyhow and in general Iagree with the “on stock” philosophy.

 

However, I think that the key thing is not what the handler does off stock, but what the handler does during the work on stock. My teacher was very careful to point it out to me whenever I was forcing the dog to work on obedience and off instinct while on stock. The key thing was to be able to work with the dog’s instinct and get the dog to do with the sheep what I wanted to do with them. Thus a person who does a lot of off-stock work can still have a dog working very well on-instinct while on stock, while another person may work only on stock and yet force the dog to work off-instinct, as you said - mechanically.

 

maja

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jdarling,

In the movie, it's all on command, but sometimes she does lie down on her own on stock. I practice lie down off sheep, and I noticed then that when I say "up" after "lie down" she is slow because she anticipates next lie down (and sometimes she lies down anticipating the command), so I tried to use it on sheep thinking that just perhaps possibly she might do the same. It didn't seem to work for most of the session, but after the exercise along the fence she started having moments behind the sheep in the middle of the filed and I used the opportunity. Her lie down on command was very good. I overused it a little to keep her from speeding up again. I hope she will do it again next time, and I will be able to tell her to lie down less frequently.

 

muttlycrew,

Thank you :rolleyes:. I must say I was very very happy after that session. I didn't expect her to change so much, since I tried not to be too hard on her. But she really wants to make me happy.

 

Maja

P.S. Drats that Snowball though. Today I tried herding with Snowball and she is completely out of th question for herding with Bonnie, she ruins everything. Whatever possessed me to agree to buy her now, I'll never know. Temporary insanity I suppose.

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I mentioned earlier that I will give you a link to Roj- a dog that was trained without too much worry about circling when he was very young:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gHcJyZ34yQ

 

It's a good example I think, because it shows why a dog may circle, and how important it is to know why a dog may circle: Roj had had trouble from the ram, you can see in the video a bit of it, and his presence obviously caused Roj to do things he would not normally do. Perhaps if Ola insisted then that he stops doing the "C" thing :rolleyes: it would have been too much pressure for him and it would have caused trouble. A very similar thing happened with Bonnie - with Snowball tucked away under the care of my bernese, Bonnie had to realize that the flock is fine, no one is going to challenge her and no one is going to split, so she calmed down and I was able to put her in the position where she should be without really fighting with her. After Snowball reappeared Bonnie reverted back to the circling , which confirmed that is was she who caused the most stress for Bonnie (and not my corrections).

 

Here is the same Roj now (with his much younger brother):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKyENBVCA9s

 

Maja

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I'm sorry about three posts in a row :rolleyes: .But I just wanted to post Bonnie's picture up close, because in the vids it's only a tiny something moving among other moving somethings. tomorrow she will be 7 months old

 

Any comments about Bonnie's last video will be welcome, only please keep in mind that it was the end of a long session, and that I did a lot of things we talked about without them showing in those last three minutes.

 

P15309771.jpgP15401151.jpg

 

She is not as beautiful as her mother yet, this is Kelly:

P1300716.jpgP1300663.jpgP10709391.jpg

 

Ok, off I go.

Maja

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Well, since it’s to be Bonnie’s chronicle of sorts, here I go continuing my monologue :rolleyes:, however your feedback will be appreciated :D .

 

Today Bonnie turned 7 months old.

 

My comments: I hold up my arms too much, after correcting the dog I should put them down instead of walking about like a scarecrow. I tell Bonnie to lie down too often (here I’m kicking myself, because I was going to do that very thing and then I didn’t do it). I also repeat the command too often. It’s okay to repeat but I overdo it.

 

 

 

Maja

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I mentioned this in another topic but I think it may also apply here - when you have stock that "cling" to you as much as yours are doing, it encourages the dog to flip-flop back and forth as it's hard to find a balance point.

 

Can you do something to discourage the stock from sticking so closely to you, allowing Bonnie to find and maintain balance without all the flip-flapping back and forth? This can be a real problem with very dog-broke stock because they go straight to the handler and don't make it easy for the dog to find a balance point and keep it without a lot of moving around - which then encourages her to use her body rather than her eye (and subtle movements) to try and control the sheep.

 

Just an idea and maybe not a valid one. I know that some people use "puppy sheep" or "knee-knockers" to start young dogs and others prefer less-broke but suitable stock, particularly past the very initial stages of introducing a youngster to stock.

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I would put her up for a few weeks. She's working too closely to the sheep, which is causing all of the flipping back and forth; it will become a bad habit that will need to be fixed later. In order to get her to back off, you'd need to put some pressure on her -- pressure I don't think she's ready for. You're lying her down entirely too much ... which is removing her responsibility for her livestock and putting that responsibility squarely on you, and not teaching her anything about rating herself. I don't understand the rush to train a dog so young. Once or twice a month for the next few months would be about what I'd be doing with her and letting her just be a puppy and mature mentally and physically. Oh, and stand up straight ... you're making my back hurt.

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Sue,

 

Yes, I read your post and I think the same thing, and in the video I am even trying to push the sheep back. And I try to use the stick to keep them from going past me, which also is causing problems. If I could get Bonnie to keep distance a little better, then the sheep would be a little less clingy. I tried to wave her away but it only cause her to run around like a manic, so I gave up on it.

 

My sheep are more dog-savvy than dog broke. They are in an enclosed area so they behave. if I let them out, they would be off like shot and they are very fast.

 

Maja

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No tips to add, but your girls are gorgeous! :rolleyes: Bonnie looks so much like her mama! Wow!

Thank you :D. Bonnie was selected from the litter because she looked like Kelly. This is Bonnie's daddy:

P14000141.jpg

In spite of appearances (the father is a show champion), this litter was bred for herding, not for looks (he works with sheep). I actually went all the way to Germany for a herding dog I thought was just right for her, but he refused to mate with Kelly (no fault of her, even the owner of the stud admitted) so we had an all night drive back to Poland, for plan "B."

Maja

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jdarling,

Perhaps you are right about the frequency. However, V. Holland talks about once a week for very young dog once it has been started.

Although my instructor said yesterday something quite opposite about pressure: he said Bonnie can take a lot more pressure. But I don't agree with it entirely. My opinion is that it depends a great deal on what kind of pressure it is, and if I can select the right pressure for her it can be both productive and enjoyable for both, if I can't then better it is to take a break and wait, when I can come down on her like a ton of brick. But I have some ideas, and I hope they will work.

 

Unfortunately I couldn't do herding and keep things organized for everybody and make movies. Particularly that I am having a cold, so I just have a few pictures.

This is Bonnie's mother. She showed later absolutely beautiful work putting the sheep in the pen. It was her actual farm work, and she put that really nasty ewe in the pen without having to resort to gripping (although she would have deserved it fully, had Kelly gripped).

P15405221.jpg

And now Bonnie:

P15405401.jpg

P15405441.jpg

P15405271.jpg

 

I am sorry I can't show you any movies, I would have been very interested in your comments on some of the things that Bonnie did. Now next herding will be in a week. I hope Bonnie can manage to wait.

 

Maja

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I think you have gotten some good feedback there from these last vids. I agree with most of it and I think she is coming along nicely too... Good job to both of you. I have also got to say what a beautiful girl She is in those pictures. It is really hard to see what a dog really looks like when they are working so hard :rolleyes:

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Thank you very much :D .

 

I also got some very good suggestions last Thursday from my herding instructor, so altogether I am looking forward to our next herding session this Thursday. And so is Bonnie who got tired of waiting to sheep herd and on Sunday decided she would go over a 4ft gate for a quick herding fix. Her marines style flip over the gate startled the sheep, and although she lay down when I told her, the flock was split and in disarray, so she didn't manage to stay in the lie down. Fortunately my husband had enough presence of mind to open the sheep's night enclosure where they all went, and once they were in I called Bonnie off once and she came right away. Well, I won't leave her behind that gate again :rolleyes: .

 

Best wishes,

Maja

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Thank you very much :D .

 

I also got some very good suggestions last Thursday from my herding instructor, so altogether I am looking forward to our next herding session this Thursday. And so is Bonnie who got tired of waiting to sheep herd and on Sunday decided she would go over a 4ft gate for a quick herding fix. Her marines style flip over the gate startled the sheep, and although she lay down when I told her, the flock was split and in disarray, so she didn't manage to stay in the lie down. Fortunately my husband had enough presence of mind to open the sheep's night enclosure where they all went, and once they were in I called Bonnie off once and she came right away. Well, I won't leave her behind that gate again :D .

 

Best wishes,

Maja

 

 

LoL! Its amazing what they will do to get just a small chance to work isnt it? Love it! :rolleyes:

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Unfortunately, I didn't record the second try with Bonnie. The first try was ok, but I came down on her like a (relative) ton of bricks so I don't really want to show it to you. I was using mostly the stick so she took the correction well, and the second try was really good - she started lying down herself, and keeping distance on her own. For wearing that is. She did a straight line well, no running, no weaving.

 

The circling however, is a another thing, when I send her so that she has to circle she slices it and she circles too close. Pointing at the shoulder helped a little bit, but not enough to put a command on it, using Derek's dangerous ground did not do a thing to her. Shooing her off had not worked during the clinic a week ago and it did not work yesterday. So I have to think of something else. I was with her and the sheep altogether less than 20 min. because it was awful hot (8:00 in the morning!) and there was also Bonnie's brother that was herding, so I didn't have time to try things out thoroughly. I think, that pushing her out with my body position may help, but I have to do it gently as I did it when teaching her to go between the sheep and the fence, because if I threaten her she comes to me - a thing she does as a side effect of teaching recall the way V. Holland says. Now whenever I get tough on her he runs to me.

 

Maja

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