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Random scared/weird behavoir for no reason


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I was in the house today with the wife and was cooking a steak on the grill for a bit coming in and out etc dog was fine happy etc. The whole morning listened to me and obeyed commands. Wife went upstairs to shower and I was cutting the steak in kitchen so I figured he was laying down for a bit. I called him, he didn't come, called again...nothing. So I went to him and he was hiding under the table which has stuff around it like a little den and he is backed up way in there with his back legs open showing me his crotch etc like I'm the boss. I figured he did something wrong so I checked but couldn't find anything, I got him to come out if I crouch down but then he ran back in.

 

Tried to feed him and he wouldn't come then I got him out long enough to get him in the kitchen. Runs right under the table and doesn't listen to calls or anything. Seemed to be scared to death for some reason. I walked over to try and pet him etc and he just peed himself...Which got me a little worried and mad but I took him to it said no etc but didn't rub his face in it. Let him eat but he was super scared the whole time. Took him outside for a walk, listened outside while on leash then as soon as we came in scared dog syndrome again.

 

Now if he didn't like me I'd say he was scared, but this dog is up my butt 24/7 when my wife is around and normally 1 on 1. What could have caused him to be like this? He's been with us almost 3 weeks now and has been listening and behaving great normally.

 

 

P.S I thought he could have smelt the steak and was scared, I even gave him a piece and he ate it fine so I don't think it was that.

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If he's peeing because he's afraid, don't tell him off for it. He can't help it, and you just reinforce his feelings that he should be afraid.

 

Have you chopped up meat on a cutting board or whatever in front of him before? One of my border collies is generally pretty afraid of the sound of me chopping up things, or making popcorn on the stove. As my dogs eat a raw food diet and therefore every evening of his blessed life involves me chopping up meat for his dinner, one would think he'd have gotten over it by now, but he continues to slink out of the room every night when the chopping begins. He is not a hide-and-pee-er, he's more of a lay-down-at-a-distance-and-give-me-whale-eye-er, but he doesn't like the sound. I generally just ignore him. I'm not going to stop chopping up things (or making popcorn) and he's not going to stop being afraid of the sound, so if he wants to leave the room while I do it because that's what makes him feel better, so be it.

 

RDM

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If everything is ok with him, having him checked by a vet, then I think your boy is going through what is known as a "fear Period".

 

A fear period is a stage during which the puppy or dog may be more apt to perceive certain stimuli threatening.

 

It could be something he is hearing, smelling, or feeling that sets him off. I would be patient and help him to figure out whatever it might be, that it is not going to hurt him.

 

I am sure others will be able to help you better then myself though.

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First word of advice - never scold a dog that submissively urinates because it will make the problem worse. He's doing that because, as you pointed out, he is upset about *something* and raising your voice or being negative in any way just encourages that behavior - he is (by submissively urinating) already "telling" you he's sorry, he's worried, etc. Sort of like someone saying they are sorry to you, you yell, and so they say they are sorry over and over because you don't seem to realize that they are apologizing.

 

He's a young dog, right? Growing dogs go through "fear" periods, often around 8-12 weeks of age and 6-14 months of age (this varies somewhat with the dog, the breed, and the growth) and it's very important during these very impressionable times to be "normal" and straightforward about things - avoiding a lot of scolding and coddling - and letting the dog know that things are normal and okay, and nothing to be afraid of.

 

I have found that, with a dog/pup that is being fearful, one of the best things I can do is *carry on normally* - that doesn't give him/her the message that there's something to be worried about (me being mad, some thing being scary). Sometimes, a certain level of just ignoring the behavior helps - not pushing the dog towards something that worries him/her or pressing the issue.

 

I guess I'd sum it up that you can be matter-of-fact, calm, kind, non-reactive (but still expecting good manners and respect); allowing your dog to learn about new things at his own pace; and avoiding your own behaviors that encourage fearful or submission reactions from your dog.

 

Best wishes!

 

PS - I have had a couple of dogs, and one in particular, that found certain sounds very disturbing and I have no reason why. These dogs, that can be very sound and motion sensitive, can easily pick up a "sensitivity" to a certain sound or body movement, particularly during a fear period. Keep things fun, normal, and calm.

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I have one that when he hears the shower from another room, he seems to think it is a scary person/thing, but if you walk him in there he realizes it's just the shower. The same one reacts strongly to cars with subwolfers blaring or whatever you call what subwolfers do. BCs can find the funniest things to be disturbed by and sometimes it takes detective work to figure out what the problem is. Good Luck.

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Others have already said it, but it bears repeating. Scolding a dog for submissive urination only gives the dog reason to fear and will cause *more* submissive urination.

 

I sure hope you were joking about rubbing his nose in it. If not, you need to read up on modern, non-violent training methods. Rubbing a dog's nose in urine or feces teaches it nothing, except to fear you. I doubt that's what you want.

 

Something scared him. You don't know what it was. In such a situation I wouldn't try to force anything on him, but instead remain calm and quiet yourself and give him a chance to figure out he's okay.

 

Get over being annoyed by accidents, especially submissive urination. A dog can sense your anger and it will only make the situation worse.

 

J.

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My dog runs from the sound of wood being chopped with an ax. So when we go camping I make sure he is in the tent/cabin/car when wood is being chopped. The first time we took him camping, the first whack sent him running to the car for safety. I open the door when it is over and he can come out whenever he wants.

 

Next time, just ignore him. He will come out when he feels safe. No need to keep calling him, going over or telling him off for peeing out of fear. Just let him be.

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A have very noise reactive dog(s). 1 in particular is scared of lots of noises and can change what she is scared of daily. I let her deal with it. Sometimes I might call her back and then to show her its OK but that usually doesn't work so we just go about getting the scary noise over. Lots of kitchen noises bother her.

 

But I wanted to mention, when I lived in AR we had scorpions, sometimes in the house. Im pretty sure this particular dog got stung by one. I heard it was much like a wasp or bad bee sting, not much more. After that incident she had a huge fear of dust bunnies, the little hair balls that collect and blow across the hard floor. This fear has abated, than doG cause we are inundated with hair balls! ;)

 

Do you have any spiders or bugs that could of bit or stung him?

 

Totally agree with not correcting submissive or fear pees. It doesn't help and can make it worse.

 

Good luck and I hope he works it out.

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Others have already said it, but it bears repeating. Scolding a dog for submissive urination only gives the dog reason to fear and will cause *more* submissive urination.

 

I sure hope you were joking about rubbing his nose in it. If not, you need to read up on modern, non-violent training methods. Rubbing a dog's nose in urine or feces teaches it nothing, except to fear you. I doubt that's what you want.

 

J.

 

There is one other thing a dog can learn by having its nose rubbed in feces or urine. It can learn that you are uptight about feces and urine. This can mean that it will become reluctant to pee or poop when you are in sight, and it will "hold it" as long as possible and then "sneak off" and "go" where you can't see it - like in the bedroom while you are watching TV in the living room.

 

I once had a rescue Collie that would hold her urine and/or poop for DAYS, until she could go in a place where there were NO HUMANS present. This was undoubtedly caused by her being browbeaten when she pottied in the "wrong place." It took two years to rehabilitate her.

 

Your dog is exhibiting fear and submission. My advice is for you to chill.

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#1-He's a puppy and #2- he's only been with you three weeks! Give the little guy a break. Something scared him (and yes, many border collies are noise sensitive and/or sensitive in general) and he just needed time to get over it. There's no telling what it might have been, but you are definitely describing a fearful dog and he needs to know that he can count on you to help him when he's scared. You don't have to coddle him, but being forceful or getting upset if he submissively urinates will only make it worse. Next time he's scared, try to play with him and show him there's nothing to be scared of. Or at least just let him work it out by taking a time out in a safe place.

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Submissive urination is also something most dogs grow out of, my young dog when he was a puppy would pee when someone came in the house and numerous other little triggers, and now he is almost 4 I can not remember the last time it happened. It is important to remember this peeing is in response to how the dog is feeling and has nothing to do with house training.

 

And as everyone has said these are noise sensitive dogs, weird things make them uncomfortable.

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.....was there a smell of smoke from the grill ?

 

The smell of smoke could have made the dog feel as if there was danger.

 

(months ago our dog alerted me to the slightest bit of smoke coming from a wall outlet that was overheating because the wires had vibrated loose over time - check your outlets with the power off of course - anyhow, our dog acted scared and it got my attention, she was a hero as I may not have noticed it till it got a lot worse if she had not reacted ti it)

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.....was there a smell of smoke from the grill ?

 

The smell of smoke could have made the dog feel as if there was danger.

 

(months ago our dog alerted me to the slightest bit of smoke coming from a wall outlet that was overheating because the wires had vibrated loose over time - check your outlets with the power off of course - anyhow, our dog acted scared and it got my attention, she was a hero as I may not have noticed it till it got a lot worse if she had not reacted ti it)

A little bit of smoke but I had long stopped grilling, and he watched me the whole time and was fine so I don't think it was the smoke. And Julie I didn't put his face in it. I've never done that to him . I only told him no when he did it, and didn't use his name either. That's something I've been working on is not using his name when I tell him no or something. Obviously I knew it was a scared pee, just didn't know how to really react until now. I wasn't really mad it was more of a..gee I got to reprimand him for nervous peeing. I believe it was like Gideon's girl said. The water noise through the house/shower noise. He seemed to spazz out, when I started to hear it on myself. He was better when I came home, got a bath to clean off the pee and went out for a run at the local obstacle course area and stuff. He has a major problem giving me his attention to listen outside as well as recall inside and out. It's in the work's with him but very frustrating. I've come from a total lab family and having a puppy who doesn't listen too good or even give you the eye contact can drive you nuts. I know Rocky is a smart fellow but very thick headed.

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Someone once suggested to me that whenever there was a loud or scary noise around a pup, that I should learn to immediately say "stress test!" and bring out a treat. It worked tonight: I started up the vacuum sealer, realized how LOUD it was, and said "stress test!". Ross immediately came up and sat attentively in front of me, licking his lips while he awaited his treat.

 

I'm not so sure that Rocky is thick-headed; he may be at an age where he's easily overwhelmed by stimuli. Any pup who is overwhelmed is likely to shut down. Take it slowly, and easily.

 

You can work wonders with counterconditioning to overcome fears. My older dog thought that the photocopy machine was an evil being until I started to bring treats with me whenever I did any copying; it took no time at all for him to view it as a treat dispenser, and he heads straight there even if I have no treats JUST IN CASE I relent and some appear. He also about a year ago decided that there was a monster that lived under the drain on the ground floor of my office building, until I put treats on it. Now, when I leave the office, I'll often ask him to "go say hi to the monster" and he runs right over to the drain.

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.....He has a major problem giving me his attention to listen outside as well as recall inside and out. It's in the work's with him but very frustrating. I've come from a total lab family and having a puppy who doesn't listen too good or even give you the eye contact can drive you nuts. I know Rocky is a smart fellow but very thick headed.

 

Hi there ~

 

Okay, I'm reading a lot of frustration in your posts, so I want to say one thing first. Stop being impatient/frustrated/whatever that he's not a lab. Getting annoyed because he's not one will NOT help you - or him.

 

So, he doesn't listen well or recall easily? He doesn't make eye contact? Here's a question to ponder: what have you done to make him want to do those things?

 

If you're doing whatever you did with lab pups but it's not quite going the way you'd hoped, it's time to re-think what you have to do. Every BC I've had - 5 to date - has always looked me in the eye when I inituated a situation that called for them to look at me. If yours won't look at you, what might you be doing that prevents him doing that? Is he acting shy? Perhaps you're a bit bold and loud in your manner. Is he acting distracted and too busy? Then you might consider doing more training time with him.

 

And by training time, I don't mean taking him out and drilling him on sit/stays for 10 minutes at a time. I personally like to make myself the most awesome thing my young dogs have ever seen. My pockets sprout cheese cubes and hot dog bites, my hands often show up with a toy, and a bazillion times a day I call my youngster to me for no other reason but to give him a treat, toss him a toy or give him a loving.

 

Then I let him go on his puppy away again. If your pup/young dog is shy or submissive around you, you might need to dial back your lab-pup energy. If he's distracted and too busy, time to make yourself more interesting. Don't call him only to DO something - like put him on leash or put him back inside. That's killing all his fun, so of course he doesn't want to come.

 

So, multiple times during the day, make a point to call him just to say hi or give him a goodie. And if he's not listening to you outide outside because outside is Way Too Fun, put him on a long line. Let him drag that and when you want him, quietly go over and pick up the long line, call him and tug him gently and offer him a treat. Give him a pet. Then let him play some more.

 

Anyhow, just some thoughts, as you of course know your situation best. :) But do relax over the random weird scared thing. If you ignore it and just act like everything is normal, it may just go away on its own.

 

Best of luck!

 

~ Gloria

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I started with labs and then got a border collie puppy. They truly are completely different. Compared to a lab, a border collie is a much softer and more sensitive dog. You'll actually find that they are way smarter & way more willing to please than a lab, but it's in a very different package. For me labs were a much more hands on type breed. You could physically put them in a sit and they seemed to understand that direction better. For the border collies they don't appreciate that type of coaching and have great difficulty learning that way. But, if you get out some food, you can teach them super elaborate tricks. I would really recommend clicker training. It's hands off & really teaches you how to let your dog learn. There are tons of great web pages on the basics or take a class. It's a really good idea to take a puppy kindergarten or foundation type class anyway, especially with a trainer with experience with border collies or herding type breeds. Even better if they show you how to do some clicker type training.

 

And, for fear type behavior, with my border collies I just ignore it. If the dog wants to go under the table because he's afraid, just go back to what you were doing. Usually if you ignore a behavior, it will tend to go away. If you make a big deal about it & especially try to correct for a fear type behavior, it'll usually get way worse. Even if the dog pees in the house, if it is for a clear fear reaction, it's just ignore it. Leave it alone, leave the dog where he is, and after things have calmed down, just go and calmly clean up the mess.

 

Good luck. You'll get the pup figured out. Just give yourself and your dog a break. : )

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Another thing to consider, given all that you've described, is that your pup is reluctant to come to you because you (your presence, voice, behavior, etc.) puts WAY TOO MUCH PRESSURE on the pup. No pup is going to come toward pressure if it's already a bit shy. And as I stated before, if you get frustrated, your pups knows that as well, and your frustrations is even more intimidating to him.

 

As someone else noted, making yourself exciting and the best thing ever as far as your pup is concerned will work really well at teaching him to recall. Most border collies are not thick headed. The human just needs to be smart enough to figure out how to communicate with them.

 

J.

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I apprectaie the feedback, even though your last sentence seemed harsh torwards me ha ha. He hasn't pee'd in fear again. He has gained a lot of confidence actually. I think he was just going through a weird funk for a couple of days. The past two days it seems he found his bark/growl when the trash truck comes by or a noise he doesn't know perks his interest. I've noticed he's been whining a lot lately too which I take as I want attention or I need to go out which is usually the case. We're moving soon so he'll have a bigger yard to play in which will be nice. I just hope he can acclimate to the new place well or has no problems at all.

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Sorry, didn't mean for you to take my comments as harsh toward you. It's a comment that you'll see fairly often around here--we have the big brains and so need to figure out how to communicate with our dogs. It applies to all of us and all of our dogs, no matter what we're trying to do with them! ;)

 

J.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hey USAF, you are getting good info on this thread.

 

As for the BC versus Lab pup comparison - it's almost like they are different species of animals at opposite ends of the spectrum - after having a lab you may almost have to unlearn some of your interaction style or the BC will be overwhelmed. Labs are bold, physical beasts that seem to feel no pain. They are rowdy, rambunctious and gregarious. It's pretty rare to see a lab pup engaging in submissive peeing as a pup - they are just too busy smelling, chewing, and exploring. The BC pup on the other hand is much more in tune with your body language, voice, etc., much more sensitive. In bird dog comparisons, the BC pup is more like a setter or a Brittany than a lab. Some Brittanies have been described as "drama queens" because they squeal or act submissive at even the sniff of a physical correction - because it works for them. A strong (possibly loud) male human presence is the most likely to bring out the submissive behavior in a more sensitive dog. I definitely agree with the others above -- walk away, ignore the submissive peeing, try to think about and minimize the situations that bring it on, and it will pass naturally.

 

I think the herding breeds may be a little more prone to submissive peeing as pups because they are just so darned tuned into the body language of all beasts, humans included. Being so tuned into body language is what allows them to do their jobs as herders - reading the reactions of the stock constantly. I've a friend who had a very nice work line German Shepherd pup that would lay down and pee all over himself every time my friend walked in the door. Turns out my friend had started making some fairly loud verbal corrections a few days earlier, and the dog was simply overwhelmed as a pup. My buddy toned down his "dominance" over the pup, walked right past the dog and ignored him whenever the pup flopped onto his back, the "fear" stage has passed, and everything is now good - the behavior has never returned.

 

This article may give you some ideas about the unique qualities of a BC - especially some of the various sensitivities: http://www.agilitynet.co.uk/training/bordercollie_suekitchen_leewindeatt.html

 

Good luck!

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